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So God has not chosen you according to this verse?
This what you said [Don't twist it to say God chose us to be in him. Before the foundation of the world,]
This is what the bible says
4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love.
Did you read the highlight part..he chose us in Him.
This what you said [Don't twist it to say God chose us to be in him. Before the foundation of the world,]
This is what the bible says
4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love.
Did you read the highlight part..he chose us in Him.
S
I have attached a document concerning the doctrines of grace that explains total depravity. These are notes that I took from a class by a well-known Reformed theologian, RC Sproul.
By the way, classes regarding this topic are available at http://connect.ligonier.org if anyone is interested. They charge 9 dollars a month for taking unlimited classes which involves video lectures, multiple choice tests, and interaction with other students via bulletin board.
A better phrase for total depravity would be "radical corruption". Total depravity describes the state of unregenerate mankind…mankind before God imparts a new nature during the process of salvation. It describes man’s natural moral condition apart from any grace God exerts to restrain or transform mankind. The condition is the result of the Fall in the garden of Eden. The results of the Fall penetrated to the core of man – to his heart.
Total depravity means that mankind has lost the ability to will any spiritual good,and has lost the natural ability to come to Christ due to Adam’s decision in the garden of Eden and the effects of original sin. Scripture describes this condition as having a “heart of stone” or an “uncircumcised heart”.
The fundamental issue between Calvinism and Arminianism is whether fallen man has the moral power to incline himself to God’s offers of help, or whether God must do an initial work of re-creation in the soul before the person has the power to say yes to the Gospel.
In the Reformed view, before a person comes to Christ, God works unilaterally,independently and sovereignly by changing the soul of the sinner, which by nature is dead in sin and morally unable to resurrect itself. What is required for man to be conformed to the image of Christ is not simply some small adjustment or behavior modification, but is nothing less than renovation from the inside – regeneration by the Holy Spirit. In the Reformed view, regeneration necessarily is required prior to faith.
The only way to escape this radical corruption is for the Holy Spirit to change the core of man. God has to give a person new spiritual life before that person has the power tocome to Christ. This regeneration or new life is the same concept that Christ discussed with Nicodemus in John 3 when he talked about the new birth or being born again. It is a spiritual resurrection , and a literal new beginning for those who are save.
The Arminian view is that mankind is born with a corrupt nature, but there remainsa remnant of original righteousness, a power in man’s will, that can cooperate with or reject the grace of God. In their view, human decision is the deciding factor.
See Scriptures that I use to support the total depravity view in the document.
This document is not very well edited..I am going to be working on it in the future. You may find duplicated or inappropriate Scriptures..some Scriptures may belong to the other five doctrines of grace.
By the way, classes regarding this topic are available at http://connect.ligonier.org if anyone is interested. They charge 9 dollars a month for taking unlimited classes which involves video lectures, multiple choice tests, and interaction with other students via bulletin board.
A better phrase for total depravity would be "radical corruption". Total depravity describes the state of unregenerate mankind…mankind before God imparts a new nature during the process of salvation. It describes man’s natural moral condition apart from any grace God exerts to restrain or transform mankind. The condition is the result of the Fall in the garden of Eden. The results of the Fall penetrated to the core of man – to his heart.
Total depravity means that mankind has lost the ability to will any spiritual good,and has lost the natural ability to come to Christ due to Adam’s decision in the garden of Eden and the effects of original sin. Scripture describes this condition as having a “heart of stone” or an “uncircumcised heart”.
The fundamental issue between Calvinism and Arminianism is whether fallen man has the moral power to incline himself to God’s offers of help, or whether God must do an initial work of re-creation in the soul before the person has the power to say yes to the Gospel.
In the Reformed view, before a person comes to Christ, God works unilaterally,independently and sovereignly by changing the soul of the sinner, which by nature is dead in sin and morally unable to resurrect itself. What is required for man to be conformed to the image of Christ is not simply some small adjustment or behavior modification, but is nothing less than renovation from the inside – regeneration by the Holy Spirit. In the Reformed view, regeneration necessarily is required prior to faith.
The only way to escape this radical corruption is for the Holy Spirit to change the core of man. God has to give a person new spiritual life before that person has the power tocome to Christ. This regeneration or new life is the same concept that Christ discussed with Nicodemus in John 3 when he talked about the new birth or being born again. It is a spiritual resurrection , and a literal new beginning for those who are save.
The Arminian view is that mankind is born with a corrupt nature, but there remainsa remnant of original righteousness, a power in man’s will, that can cooperate with or reject the grace of God. In their view, human decision is the deciding factor.
See Scriptures that I use to support the total depravity view in the document.
This document is not very well edited..I am going to be working on it in the future. You may find duplicated or inappropriate Scriptures..some Scriptures may belong to the other five doctrines of grace.
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No, it's quite insufficient.
Unless someone can correct my understanding of the Calvinist position - that it considers man to be totally depraved after being regenerated in Christ due to an inherited sin nature that is a substance pervading his being - then I think it's fair to say that Calvinism is indistinguishable from gnosticism, because they also believed that the body was totally corrupted and thereby unable to do any good. The pre-Augustine church fathers did not believe this, but believed that man had free will to do good. And the fact that Calvinism is essentially the same theology as Augustine's, who was a gnostic for nearly a decade, greatly supports this conclusion.
Unless someone can correct my understanding of the Calvinist position - that it considers man to be totally depraved after being regenerated in Christ due to an inherited sin nature that is a substance pervading his being - then I think it's fair to say that Calvinism is indistinguishable from gnosticism, because they also believed that the body was totally corrupted and thereby unable to do any good. The pre-Augustine church fathers did not believe this, but believed that man had free will to do good. And the fact that Calvinism is essentially the same theology as Augustine's, who was a gnostic for nearly a decade, greatly supports this conclusion.
And thats why I told you quite a few posts ago, to not right fiction regarding Gnostic/calvinist and be a more informed reader.
Paul of Tarsus was a Christian Killer and hater..whats your point... oh..wait a minute you have not got one! well atleast an 'informed' one
Does this not answer your question yet?????????????
S
It seems like your view reflects more a Pelagian view, which was refuted by Augustine. Pelagianism is widely understood as heretical.
Besides this, the argument of Calvinists is from SCRIPTURE and not from the church fathers. Augustine understood Scripture in this regard, and so did Paul. As far as I am concerned, Augustine was a Paulist, and Paul was taught by Jesus.
Stick to Scripture and argue from that...and Calvinists have the exegetical support to back up their doctrines.
Besides this, the argument of Calvinists is from SCRIPTURE and not from the church fathers. Augustine understood Scripture in this regard, and so did Paul. As far as I am concerned, Augustine was a Paulist, and Paul was taught by Jesus.
Stick to Scripture and argue from that...and Calvinists have the exegetical support to back up their doctrines.
I'm definitely not Pelagian, and the pre-Augustine church fathers weren't either. They and I believe that man does have the ability to do good, even in the unregenerate state, but that no man has the ability to save himself due to the inherent corruption of his Adamic nature and separation from GOD. As I understand it, Pelagians don't believe in moral corruption or sin nature, and a man saves himself by his deeds.
This is very true... but I know what the reformed view is and the arminian. The point is, you have made bold statements publically on the internet. without any knowledge (which you stated yourself). I was more concerned for you making statements the way you did.
Anyone can find the truth of the matter. Go to the sources and learn. Be informed not ignornt.
S
Yes, and if he's getting it from Jesse Morrell, it is most certainly in error.
Jesse Morrell claims he has sinned only once since salvation, so he doesn't even understand what sin is.
And, I know he's used the spurious "Long Letter of Clement" to support his positions regarding this topic. This "Long Letter" has the genuine words of Clement in it, but adds spurious materials to teach heresy. He's been caught with his shoddy scholarship.
He also claims Jesus was not our propitiation, and he is an open theist. He tries to align himself with Arminians, but he's not even evangelical.
If someone wants to use early church fathers here, they should quote the source of their information so we can verify it. If Jesse Morrell is the source, it will be struck down instantly as lacking credibility. One only needs to listen to his teachings on YouTube to determine he's confused.
Here's some videos about Morrell and Pelagianism by Keith Thompson. Keith can be intense but he documents his facts:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vP3N5XgdDcI&list=PLGX4mNJduw9rQxrl5Q1Y3nW5p-F2plUTq
Jesse Morrell claims he has sinned only once since salvation, so he doesn't even understand what sin is.
And, I know he's used the spurious "Long Letter of Clement" to support his positions regarding this topic. This "Long Letter" has the genuine words of Clement in it, but adds spurious materials to teach heresy. He's been caught with his shoddy scholarship.
He also claims Jesus was not our propitiation, and he is an open theist. He tries to align himself with Arminians, but he's not even evangelical.
If someone wants to use early church fathers here, they should quote the source of their information so we can verify it. If Jesse Morrell is the source, it will be struck down instantly as lacking credibility. One only needs to listen to his teachings on YouTube to determine he's confused.
Here's some videos about Morrell and Pelagianism by Keith Thompson. Keith can be intense but he documents his facts:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vP3N5XgdDcI&list=PLGX4mNJduw9rQxrl5Q1Y3nW5p-F2plUTq
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