calvinism

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Nov 26, 2011
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#41
Good explanation of monergism,( except the Tulippy part which is a subset of Calvinism,)
of which Calvinism is a subset.
Monergism would deny that Noah prepared the Ark through the exercise of his own free agency. In other words a monergist would teach that it was the IRRESISTIBLE GRACE of God that moved Noah to build the ark.

Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Monergism denies the working together with God which is implied throughout the whole tome of Scripture.

2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

Workers Together - G4903 -sunergeō - From G4904; to be a fellow worker, that is, co-operate: - help (work) with, work (-er) together.

There it is right there in the words of Paul. Synergism.

These theologians are Greek scholars, they know that word is in there, they have simply closed their minds to the truth due to their emotional attachment and investment to the philosophical intellectualism of men.

Thus they adhere to a system of lies and miss what is plainly evident right before their eyes. They are the blind guides leading the blind into the ditch.

Faith is the dynamic whereby a man yields to God. It is the full persuasion of the mind as to the reality of God and to the reality of His promises. Faith is a gift of God given to those who diligently seek the truth of God. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, through the scripture, the light of conscience, and God's messengers.

God leads the way and we are to follow. If we follow we are doers of the word. Whether we follow or not is a CHOICE we all have to make.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#42
God does not MAKE someone seek Him for God has given all men the agency of free will. If free will did not exist then man is simply not responsible for his actions but is instead a puppet on a string.
I wasn't seeking God when He revealed His Son to me.
 
1

1Covenant

Guest
#43
Carey
I think the question may be a little too broad. Perhaps you intended that for discussion sake...

However, just a couple of thoughts since you said you were not well versed (no pun intended) in this area.

From St. Augustine to St. Athanasius to Luther, men have studied the Word to know how to understand its pages. They have all wrote much about how to understand the scriptures, however, it just so happens that Calvin and others during the time of the reformers were among the first to have their works 1. survive 2. be so voluminous in scope and 3 occur during a major upheaval/revival. (providential? ----- sorry bad joke)

Obviously what is known as Calvinism has much to do with his work but a careful distinction should be made between Calvinism and Reformed Theology which is a larger camp of theology. Someone has implied that they are the same and I simply want to be clear that there were many reformers in many regions of Europe working to reform catholic theology and while there is much agreement, they did not always have the same theological conclusions. As it has also been pointed out in someone's post, there are theological works that fall under other works or camps of thought, so it is important to understand the origins of someones frame of reference as well as where they may diverge.
Everyone has a lens by which they view scripture and whether they know it or not they fall under a general camp of theology that has come before them, even if they end up simply being a poorly constructed amalgamation.

One other thing I will point out with regard to Calvinism - for some it invokes hyper responses. Today, there are "Hyper-calvinist" just as there are "Hyper-anticalvinist" and they will essentially do the same thing to Calvin's work - they don't try to understand i,t they just use it like a hammer. To these folks people tend to look more like nails and they are going to use the "Institutes" to give them the smack down.

That being said, I believe for anyone to answer your question well, you may have to identify what particular belief you are referring to, within the entire works of Calvin.
Or to ask folks to name one belief from Calvinism and defend it with scripture? (That might prove more educational for you and that seemed to happen before the posts got off to some deeper theological waters)

I hope this is received in the same spirit in which it is offered.
I have enjoyed reading the lively posts which you started. Thanks for posting.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#44
Monergism would deny that Noah prepared the Ark through the exercise of his own free agency. In other words a monergist would teach that it was the IRRESISTIBLE GRACE of God that moved Noah to build the ark.

Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
I'll only take the first point due to time. Your assertion is only your concept of what monergism is. Monergism would assert that Noah was moved because it was God who first was working both to will and to do of His good pleasure as in...

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
(Php 2:12-13)

but I take it you only read the first part.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#45
I'll only take the first point due to time. Your assertion is only your concept of what monergism is. Monergism would assert that Noah was moved because it was God who first was working both to will and to do of His good pleasure as in...

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
(Php 2:12-13)

but I take it you only read the first part.

That is another passage in the context of synergism.

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.


Work Out
- katergazomai
From G2596 and G2038; to work fully, that is, accomplish; by implication to finish, fashion: - cause, do (deed), perform, work (out).


Indeed God works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure for...

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

God initiates the call to men. Yet it is up to men as to whether they will respond or not. The willingness to respond is wrought through the repentance experience (2Cor 7:10-11).

It is in "working together" or "working out" or "through the dynamic of faith" that the grace of God is made EFFECTUAL to the saving of the soul.

Hence...

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


Thus we are saved by...

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.




Again these theologians who teach the inability of man and thus monergism are Greek scholars and they know the definitions of words like katergazomai and sunergeo yet they choose to be WILLFULLY IGNORANT and thus favour the pseudo-intellectualism of the doctrines of men.

They completely miss the simplicity that is in Christ and the doctrine according to godliness and thus preach ANOTHER GOSPEL in which they convince people that they can be justified in the midst of ongoing rebellion to God. They utterly deny the SINGLE EYE teaching of Jesus Christ.

Mat 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

Instead they uphold this foolish "born in sin" doctrine and teach "sin you will and sin you must" and speak against any possibility of genuine heart purity.
 
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M

moretalman

Guest
#46
Predestination is biblcal. Theres this thing termed "Hyper calvininism" Which states that some are predestined from birth to eternal torment & others to eternal bliss, it's all a done deal. I can't reconcile this with "Justice". And God is perfectly just. My Lord isn't John Calvin (eternal security) Nor Jacobus Arminius (conditional security) my Lord is Jesus Christ. Make him your Lord. He's no where as near as opinionated (spoken in jest) He's not opinionated at all. But he is perfectly righteous & trustworhty & he is Lord! Google the confusing terms. Many Blessings
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,707
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#47
That is another passage in the context of synergism.

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.


Work Out
- katergazomai
From G2596 and G2038; to work fully, that is, accomplish; by implication to finish, fashion: - cause, do (deed), perform, work (out).


Indeed God works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure for...

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

God initiates the call to men. Yet it is up to men as to whether they will respond or not. The willingness to respond is wrought through the repentance experience (2Cor 7:10-11).

It is in "working together" or "working out" or "through the dynamic of faith" that the grace of God is made EFFECTUAL to the saving of the soul.

Hence...

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


Thus we are saved by...

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.




Again these theologians who teach the inability of man and thus monergism are Greek scholars and they know the definitions of words like katergazomai and sunergeo yet they choose to be WILLFULLY IGNORANT and thus favour the pseudo-intellectualism of the doctrines of men.

They completely miss the simplicity that is in Christ and the doctrine according to godliness and thus preach ANOTHER GOSPEL in which they convince people that they can be justified in the midst of ongoing rebellion to God. They utterly deny the SINGLE EYE teaching of Jesus Christ.

Mat 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

Instead they uphold this foolish "born in sin" doctrine and teach "sin you will and sin you must" and speak against any possibility of genuine heart purity.
You missed the point. The reason we can work out (the salvation we already have) is because God has already been working in us.
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
4,612
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#48
You missed the point. The reason we can work out (the salvation we already have) is because God has already been working in us.
The point being the person and work of Jesus Christ.
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#49
Predestination is biblcal. Theres this thing termed "Hyper calvininism" Which states that some are predestined from birth to eternal torment & others to eternal bliss, it's all a done deal. I can't reconcile this with "Justice". And God is perfectly just. My Lord isn't John Calvin (eternal security) Nor Jacobus Arminius (conditional security) my Lord is Jesus Christ. Make him your Lord. He's no where as near as opinionated (spoken in jest) He's not opinionated at all. But he is perfectly righteous & trustworhty & he is Lord! Google the confusing terms. Many Blessings
You have misidentified hyper-calvinism.


My being Calvinist isn't because Calvinism said something, therefor it's true. Calvin said a number of things I would disagree with (I'm a credo-baptist for example). In fact, I have read very little of John Calvin's own writings. It is through presentations of scripture that I accept the label Calvinist.
 
M

moretalman

Guest
#50
Jimmy Diggs: What ever you want to call it, there are those who believe, that some are predestined from birth, to eternal torment & others to eternal bliss. As far as lables are concerned they're schismatic & sectarian. Arminian or Calvinist, if you have faith in Christ you have standing with God thru that faith. If it was necessary to be a possessor of perfect doctrine to have assurance of salvation, who in this thread has hope? Neither I, nor you, that's for sure. Do you wanna know if your saved? Ask your self these questions: Have you confessed with your mouth the Lord Jesus? Do you believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead? If you can answer yes. Then according to Paul you shall be saved. For with the heart man believes unto righteousness & with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. If our faith is genuine then our salvation is sure. There are several admonitions in scripture for us to keep our faith, so we must keep our faith to be saved. But the devil can't steal our faith, nor will God stop us from discarding it. This is what I believe anyway. Could I be wrong? Most certainly. That's why I'm so grateful that my standing with God insn't dependent on having all of my theological i's dotted & t's crossed. It's dependent on my faith in the atoning blood of Jesus Christ. And I have every intention of keeping it. That's one thing I believe we all have the power to do. God allows Satan a lot but he won't allow him to push us over the the edge into the bottomless pit. But if we decide to take the dive, to live our life free from the moral restraints of God's will God won't stop us. I know, I know that opens up a "whole other can of worms". I wonder??? Are there some things past finding out? I think it was Tozer that said: it's humilty that BECOMES FALLEN CREATURES, NOT PERFECTION. Yes I believe I'm fallen, we all are. I've not yet "put on immortality". That's why I beileive I'm just a moretalman.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#51
You missed the point. The reason we can work out (the salvation we already have) is because God has already been working in us.
I did not miss the point at all.

This thread is in the context of the systematic theology of John Calvin's "Institutes of the Christian Religion."

We already have one poster quote Eph 2:5, Joh 5:21 and Jer 13:23 in the context of Calvin's theology which is a context of man's INABILITY being offset by the IRRESISTIBLE GRACE of God.

Those who adhere to the theology of John Calvin believe that ONLY those who are granted IRRESISTIBLE GRACE are saved and that those who are not granted it remain damned and doomed.

The Bible simply does not teach IRRESISTIBLE GRACE. It is a very dangerous doctrine because it convinces people to WAIT on God instead of responding now. When the dynamic of faith is redefined to simply be "trust" apart from us having to do anything we are left with a do nothing Gospel because it is up to God to do everything. This is why Calvinist's harp on their doctrines and ignore the plain and simple teachings of Jesus.

John Calvin used Augustine as the bedrock of his doctrine, not the teachings of Jesus Christ. While I have not sat down and counted, from my own readings of the Institutes it does appear that John Calvin quotes Augustine far more than he does Jesus or anyone else for that matter.

It was Augustine who brought the doctrine of inability into Christian orthodoxy and John Calvin simply developed a more intricate theological system. I understand how it appeals to intellectuals and when an individual invests a lot of time in something they become emotionally attached.



I would love to see a Calvinist on these forums address this passage of scripture...

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Please explain why you teach the "corruption of nature" remains in someone who is born again and thus uphold "sin you will and sin you must" which is the complete opposite of what the above passage of scripture teaches. John clearly states matter of factly that those born of God MANIFEST RIGHTEOUSNESS thus clearly connecting the inward state of the heart with the outer manifestation of action.



I would also love to see a Calvinist address this...

Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

That passage clearly teaches that "continuing in sin" AFTER being "sanctified by the blood" is treating the blood with contempt for it is the blood of Christ which purges the conscience of sin (Heb 9:14, 10:22) and thus to continue in sin would make it filthy again.

I have heard people explain that passage away by saying it was not written to Christian's or that it is a reference to those who merely "hear" and then reject the Gospel. Yet neither of those explanations suffice because the passage clearly states the context is of someone who has been sanctified by the blood (Heb 10:22, 26, 29) so it is a clear reference to those who have been reconciled to God.

How does a Calvinist get around that passage? I would really like to know. Be SPECIFIC in your answer.

It's seems to me that a Calvinist would have to believe that there is this ongoing purging for ongoing rebellion in which case Heb 20:26 would make no sense because ongoing willful sin is a given.
 
C

carey

Guest
#52
@1covenant
thank you for your beautiful and enlightened post, honestly I don't know what I believe yet, I have always been a Bible only kinda girl, I have studied the scriptures, especially the old testament (love Isaiah! ) but lately I have felt like the Lord is pushing me to understand and dig deeper, hence my question regarding Calvinism, there is so much terminology I don't understand, I seriously need a dictionary and a larger notebook!

With all that being said, can someone please explain all this to me as if I was a two year old? Like I said I don't understand all the terminology, so please use simple words!
Thank you
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#53
@1covenant
thank you for your beautiful and enlightened post, honestly I don't know what I believe yet, I have always been a Bible only kinda girl, I have studied the scriptures, especially the old testament (love Isaiah! ) but lately I have felt like the Lord is pushing me to understand and dig deeper, hence my question regarding Calvinism, there is so much terminology I don't understand, I seriously need a dictionary and a larger notebook!

With all that being said, can someone please explain all this to me as if I was a two year old? Like I said I don't understand all the terminology, so please use simple words!
Thank you
looks like your thread got hijacked. do you have any particular questions.. does not look like anything got answered, just someones rant..
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#54
Here are is a clear example of how Reformed Theology contradicts the tenet of Scripture...


V. This corruption of nature, during this life, does remain in those that are regenerated;[11] and although it be, through Christ, pardoned, and mortified; yet both itself, and all the motions thereof, are truly and properly sin.[12]
Westminster Confession, Article 6
Westminster Confession of Faith

II. This sanctification is throughout, in the whole man;[7] yet imperfect in this life, there abiding still some remnants of corruption in every part;[8] whence arises a continual and irreconcilable war, the flesh lusting against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh.[9]
III. In which war, although the remaining corruption, for a time, may much prevail;[10] yet, through the continual supply of strength from the sanctifying Spirit of Christ, the regenerate part does overcome;[11] and so, the saints grow in grace,[12] perfecting holiness in the fear of God.[13]
Westminster Confession, Chapter 13
Westminster Confession of Faith


The passages in bold allude to how they teach that a regenerated Christian remains inwardly defiled and thus double minded.

What they have done is confuse "temptation" with "sin."

The Bible teaches this...

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Under Reformed doctrine this "being drawn away in temptation and enticed by the lusts of the flesh" is a "sin nature" or "corruption of nature." Another word for the lusts of the flesh is the term "concupiscence" and it was Augustine who taught that the very existence of concupiscence was PROOF of "inborn sin" or "inborn corruption of nature" being passed down in the male sperm (Seminal Identity or Traducianism).

The Bible is clear that Jesus was...

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

As well as that...

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Temptation is not sin nor are the passions of the flesh sin. Nor is temptation or the passions of the flesh a "sinful nature," they are simply natural desires that God calls us to rule over. Sin is when when the will is exercised in a manner to gratify carnal desire in discordance with the knowledge of the truth (right and wrong).

Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Thus it is the mind set on the things of the flesh which is an enemy of God.

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Thus as can be seen by the above quotes from the Westminster Confession of Faith it is clearly evident that Reformed Theology teaches that the "temptation wrought by natural desire" is viewed as sin. Due to viewing this as sin they are forced to deny genuine heart purity in those whom are regenerated and thus preach a doctrine which caters to double-mindedness existing in a regenerated believer, ie. "In which war, although the remaining corruption, for a time, may much prevail;" WCF Ch. 13 Sec. 3

This is why they are compelled to rip out of context scriptures like Rom 7:14-25 and 1Joh 1:8 as proof texts for an ongoing state of sinfulness in a Christian.

Thus due to this "ongoing state of corruption" that they believe in they have forced an invented theology upon the "death of Christ" known as Penal Substitution in which they can teach a POSITIONAL/ABSTRACT salvation in that they view justification as purely based on the forensic swap of "Christ's Righteousness" for the "Believers Sin." This is often termed the "Double Imputation" of Reformed Theology.

This forensic transfer as the basis of being right with God utterly perverts what the Bible actually teaches. It is a complete denial of the true Gospel whereby people can be redeemed from all iniquity and made pure by the blood of Christ.

The Bible clearly teaches that the Holy Spirit is in the world convicting people of sin, righteousness and the judgment to come. When a sinner responds to this conviction through a godly sorrow working a genuine repentance whereby the rebellion to God is forsaken, that "former" sinner is found to be in a submissive and teachable state before God. It is in this state that God raises the former sinner up unto newness of life whereby they are cleansed of their former sins by the blood of Christ and thus they can faithfully abide in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ having been made inwardly pure via their faith. There is no inward corruption or root of iniquity in a Saint of God for they have been cleansed and purged of all sin.

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Yet "temptation" still exists and the "passions and desires" still exist, yet the passions and desires are CRUCIFIED for the old man has been put to death thus the minds eye of a saint is set SINGLY on God.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Mat 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

This is the true state of a genuine born again believer. If a professing Christian is not in that state they need to do what Paul teaches...

Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Eph 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
Eph 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
Eph 4:27 Neither give place to the devil.
Eph 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
Eph 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Eph 4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
Eph 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
Eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:



It amazes me how readily people buy into these theological systems when the Bible so clearly and plainly contradicts their doctrinal tenets. So many people will argue in favour of being perpetually corrupt in this life and scorn any contention that genuine heart purity is possible.

The Bible says this...

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

There is absolutely nothing forensic or positional implied in the above passage.

What you do is a reflection of who you are!
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#55
Jimmy Diggs: What ever you want to call it, there are those who believe, that some are predestined from birth, to eternal torment & others to eternal bliss.
What's wrong with that? It's certainly not a heresy, and has grounds.A

Proverbs 16:4
The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of
trouble

As far as lables are concerned they're schismatic & sectarian. Arminian or Calvinist, if you have faith in Christ you have standing with God thru that faith.
You're engaging in sectarianism and being schismatic as well. Aren't you the one saying I don't believe in a Just god?


If it was necessary to be a possessor of perfect doctrine to have assurance of salvation, who in this thread has hope?
Who said it has to be perfect?

Neither I, nor you, that's for sure.
We have no hope for salvation apart from God.

Do you wanna know if your saved?
Sure. I think this won't work for you though, as I am a Calvinist... everyone knows Calvinists can't be saved because they believe God is sovereign. ;)


Ask your self these questions: Have you confessed with your mouth the Lord Jesus?
Matthew 7
[SUP]21 [/SUP]“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ [SUP]23 [/SUP]Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Repeating some words won't save you.
Do you believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead?
James 2.I

f you can answer yes. Then according to Paul you shall be saved.
Shall? Do I have to do something to complete it? Do I have to do something to maintain it?

For with the heart man believes unto righteousness & with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. If our faith is genuine then our salvation is sure. There are several admonitions in scripture for us to keep our faith, so we must keep our faith to be saved. But the devil can't steal our faith, nor will God stop us from discarding it. This is what I believe anyway. Could I be wrong? Most certainly.
Not sure what this has to do with the thread.

That's why I'm so grateful that my standing with God insn't dependent on having all of my theological i's dotted & t's crossed.
I don't ask for dotted T's and crossed I's, at least not from someone who is still on milk. I do ask for someone to believe the basic doctrines of Christianity, monergism being one of them.

It's dependent on my faith in the atoning blood of Jesus Christ.
More aptly his grace.

And I have every intention of keeping it. That's one thing I believe we all have the power to do. God allows Satan a lot but he won't allow him to push us over the the edge into the bottomless pit. But if we decide to take the dive, to live our life free from the moral restraints of God's will God won't stop us. I know, I know that opens up a "whole other can of worms".
So, ultimately it is you who has the power of salvation. God's done his thing, now it's up to you to save yourself and keep yourself saved.
 
C

carey

Guest
#56
looks like your thread got hijacked. do you have any particular questions.. does not look like anything got answered, just someones rant..
I agree, it seems like nobody is interested in explaining Calvinism to me, rather, some are using this as their own personal soapbox, sad
As for questions, I guess I just want to know what Calvinism is and if it has any biblical basis
 
M

moretalman

Guest
#57
Theres a lot of "ax grinding" going on in this thread. Some are grinding it to lay it to the root ot of calvinism or original sin.

Others are grinding theirs to lay it to the root of any claim that these doctrines are in some way (or any way) erroneous.

Jesus said: If we continue in his word we'll be his disciples indeed & we shall know the truth & the truth shall make us free.

How many "truth seekers" do we have in here? That is, people willing to consider, that no matter how passionate their

convictions are, they're willing to consider they could be wrong. I don't want to engage in vain & fruitless argument.

I believe that I have standing with God through faith in Jesus Christ & that alone. The scripture says that we can only say

Jesus is Lord by the Holy Ghost. I remember reading a definition of apostasy in old an 1929 Websters dictionary

that I found quite compelling. It mentioned something about apostasy, only being able to be committed, by one who once

held to the true faith. (Apostasy being the abondonment of one's faith). How can you abandon a faith you never had? Is

there such a thing as apostasy? Is this the end of the story? Certainly not. This debate has been raging for centuries. If you

have genuine faith in Jesus Christ, Arminian, Calvinist or other wise , your my brother or sister in Christ.

No Jimmy, I'm saying I can't reconcile a just God, with a God who would create somone foreordained to eternal

damnation. Is it reconciliable? If it is I can't see it. Please explain. I think there's something more to it, than just saying:

God is soverign, he can do whatever he wants.

God can't compromise his integrity, justice or holiness, in fact he holds the universe together with it.

On the point of schism I learned a very interesting thing. Ya know that scripture that says "A heretic after the 1st & 2nd

admonition reject", ( It's in one of Paul epistles). I looked the word heretic up in my Greek lexicon. 2 phrases were used to

define it." A schismatic" & "A choice". After some thought, study & prayer. I drew this conclusion. Any time someone is

saying you have to make a choice between me & this other person (both being genuine believers) you have to accept

them & reject me or reject me & accept them, their being a schismatic, they're asking them to make a choice, they're

sowing division in the body of Christ. They're saying " I am of Apollos ", or " I am of Paul ". We do the same thing with

todays preachers, teachers & theologians.

We need to stand together in faith & reach the world with the good news & stop fighting amoungst ourselves.

It's time to pray:

Dear God, our creator, you who's son is Jesus of Nazereth, the Christ prophesied of by the Hebrew prophets, have

an extraordinary impact upon each of us that have been participaitng in this discussion, we are fallible & finite beings in

desparate need of your guidance, apart from you we will surely err, do in us what we can't do in ourselves, annoint us with

a spirit of humility, deliver us from our pride, countervail every spirit of schism by your spirit of unity, convict us of our sin by

your gentle guiding hand of of tender mercy, bring to bear upon each of us your unstoppable power, that we might rightly

discern the truth. Dispatch your heavenly host into our presence to do war on our behalf, free us from every spirit of

deception, error & schism. Give us eyes to see, ears to hear & a mind to understand the course you want us to follow,

enable us to yeild to your leading, overcoming the desires of our flesh & the enemy of our soul. Bring a new spirit of love

upon us. Our heart is to you for the molding , our mind is for you to change, all of our being surrendered, Lord please come

& have your way, we are your needy children. Father I remember the words of your son Jesus who said: If we had faith &

doubted not whatsoever we ask in paryer believing we would recieve, father I have faith & don't doubt you wanna bring

these things to us. Your faithful servant John said, that if we ask anything according to your will you would hear us. Father

we trust that you have heard & do honor these prayers,thank you for your faithfulness & your love & we do ask all these

things in Jesus name. AMEN!




 
Mar 20, 2013
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#58
I'm going to say NOT. Because my own Bible knowledge and reasoning tells me that "Christianity" means a person serves Christ and knows, understands and follows his teachings. "Calvinism" tells me that a person follows the sketchy interpretations of the imperfect man named, Calvin, instead of another man. What does the Bible say about serving two masters? Not to mention told his people to follow him, not Calvin.
 
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carey

Guest
#59
CAN SOMEONE PLEASE EXPLAIN CALVINISM TO ME USING SMALL WORDS!!!
I thought if I used all caps someone might get the hint! Now let's see if it works
;/
:~o
 
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MrMalby

Guest
#60
Hiya carey

answer 'no' (small words)

I've been trying to get a very simple explanation for a good while now, I don't think one exists.. in a short answer in any case.
I have of course googled it till my fingers bleed but not one single solitary short explanation, maybe there isnt one, and maybe that tells you all you need to know :)

Hope you find what you are looking for carey :)

EDIT: I found this, its as clear and simple as perhaps it will ever get
My Explanation of “The Five Points of Calvinism” :: Fundamentally Reformed


Malby
 
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