Calvinists,Im Asking...

[ForthAngel]

I adhere to the Bible read in context. No labels needed.



So...no truce then?

I never knew we were that much at odds tbh. I already told you I don't have any beef with you. But when you say things like God breathed spirit into every man therefore some men are good by nature and others turn away, I'm gonna call it as it is. That's Pelagian. If you wanna go by what the bible says, it says all have turned aside to go their own way, not just some. How you are trying to make a connection with the spirit being God breathed to some people are inherently good I will never know. That idea is extremely far removed from any scriptural context.

 

[Ariel82]

Found this article and thought it might add to the discussion.

Its about the two different views of free will.

Libertarian free will | Theopedia

Here is what i believe can be labeled the CALVINIST take on it?

Of course y'all can correct what you don't agree with the statement.

The Compatibilist view - This view affirms that man freely chooses what God has determined that he will chose. In this way, the idea that God is in charge, and the idea that man can be held responsible for his actions are compatible ideas. Free will is affected by human nature and man cannot choose contrary to his nature and desires. This view acknowledges man as a free moral agent who freely makes choices. But due to the effects of the fall, as contained in the doctrine of total depravity, man's nature is corrupted such that he cannot choose contrary to his fallen nature -- He cannot discern spiritual things or turn to God in faith apart from divine intervention.

Haven't decided which one I agree with yet....never really thought about it truthfully.

God tells me what to do and I try my best to do it Cuz I know He has my best interest at heart. Sometimes I was a brat and disobeyed and then God let the natural consequences happen.(after like 50 or so times I stopped touching the hot pot).

Thought that's how it worked with everyone,but learned nope...most people don't pray or ask God anything.

 

[preacher4truth]

This truce thing is like: Behave how I like you to behave and I'll be your friend. Really? That's not a control mechanism.

Just wow.

It's funny about the labels thing. There have been several attempts to get some to show, exegetically, who the "us-ward" are in 2 Peter 3:9. Clearly it is describing the elect of God from the beginning of the epistle. That thought follows throughout the following chapters, leading to 3:9. Here the term "usward" is concerning the chosen, the elect, the saved. So here was the label attempted to be planted on me: That I am eiosegitical and "my reading into the Scriptures" accusation.

There was no proof, no showing by the passage this was done, just a plain unsubstantiated and frankly false accusation.

It is sad to see those who are eisegeting Scripture and completely misunderstanding. They generally go grab 1 Timothy 2:4 and go with the word all out of context. I've explained this earlier.

And the fact remains that no one wants to touch 2 Peter 3:9 because it is plain that Peter is speaking of the elect, not to the world abroad. But, can't have the Bible dictating to us beliefs that go against our tradition, can we?

 

[Ariel82]

I never knew we were that much at odds tbh. I already told you I don't have any beef with you. But when you say things like God breathed spirit into every man therefore some men are good by nature and others turn away, I'm gonna call it as it is. That's Pelagian. If you wanna go by what the bible says, it says all have turned aside to go their own way, not just some. How you are trying to make a connection with the spirit being God breathed to some people are inherently good I will never know. That idea is extremely far removed from any scriptural context.

Ummm that's not what I said...

I said God gives everyone a soul to choose right and wrong. That some by the power of God are enabled to chose good in every generation, but that doesn't mean they are saved or born again.

The truce thing is like...don't say things in a way that make me mad and I won't intentionally mad or insult you either. (that is a statement directed at the person who follows you around like a post puppy and twist what you say into insults and arrows aimed at me.)

I would rather talk about the Bible but character assasination keeps happening.

 

[Ariel82]

ForthAngel what are you views on the New Covenant?

Lynn said it was the same as the Old except it was between God and Jesus now.

I believe the New Covenant is different totally from the Old.

I believe that God's prophets in the OT were part of the New Covenant because they believed upon the promise of the Messiah, Jesus to save them
Covenant of Grace.

The folks under the Law or the Old Covenant believed that their keeping of the Law would save them and did not want a personal relationship with God. They wanted mediators of priest and prophets instead of direct communication with God.

 

[ForthAngel]

ForthAngel what are you views on the New Covenant?

Lynn said it was the same as the Old except it was between God and Jesus now.

I believe the New Covenant is different totally from the Old.

I believe that God's prophets in the OT were part of the New Covenant because they believed upon the promise of the Messiah, Jesus to save them
Covenant of Grace.

The folks under the Law or the Old Covenant believed that their keeping of the Law would save them and did not want a personal relationship with God. They wanted mediators of priest and prophets instead of direct communication with God.

Not sure honestly. I haven't done a lot of study or really thought about it. I think Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world and everyone has always been saved just like we are, by believing in God and his promises. There are some preachers today that want to say that the Jews are still under the old covenant and not saved the same way we are through Christ, but I disagree with this and think it was always by God's grace and gifting of faith that lead to believing in him and his promises that saved. I think Jesus was the final revelation of the shadows, types, and promises being fulfilled.

 

[MattforJesus]

I believe the Old Testament saints wanted direct communication with God,at least some of them,for anybody that wants to abide in the truth of God will want a relationship with Him,for they want to do right,and David was a man after God's own heart.

The Old Testament and the New Testament are no different for salvation,as long as the people in the Old Testament repented of their sins,and the blood of animals covered their sins,for then their sins were washed away by Jesus,and a saint like all the New Testament saints,and no different.

The 12 tribes of Israel are written in the New Jerusalem,and the 12 apostles of the Lamb are written in the New Jerusalem,and there is no saint other than that written in the New Jerusalem,not even Paul with all his writings,and reaching out to the Gentiles.

To me they seemed like more honorable men,with greater impact in the Old Testament.

The Old Testament and New is different in this.

The Old Testament was given that had the moral laws,laws of love,but they could never live up to them perfectly not having the Spirit,and they could not be spiritual,so God had them physical ordinances that they were able to keep,until Christ came.

Also God allowed them to war against their enemies,and they had material,and monetary blessings,which are not applied in the New Testament.

Jesus said a new commandment I give you,that you love one another as I have loved you,which they can do by the Spirit,and preached a more excellent way of love.

In the New Testament we only go by the laws,love God,and love people,moral laws,and abstain from fleshy pleasures,and do not eat an animal with the blood,or has been strangled,for that is still in effect,for do not eat the blood,for the life is in the blood.

Jesus took the physical ordinances of Israel out of the way,nailing them to His cross,for they had no benefit for spiritual salvation.

Sin separates us from God whether Old Testament,Jew or Gentile,or New,confess Christ,or not confess Christ.

If we do not want sin by the Spirit we can abstain from sin,for that is what God wants for us to abstain from sin.In the Old they could not do it not being able to receive the Spirit,and in the New we can do it by the Spirit.

But salvation is the same whether Old or New,and no difference there,for in the Old,the blood of animals,Christ came washed away their sins,and in the New sins are washed away,and are a saint either way and with Jesus.

 

[Depleted]

If God doesn't influence things, what is your concept of sovereignty?

And those two drunks had the same experience Jesus did on the cross with the thieves on the cross. One he saved and one he didn't.

My view would be one listened to the Holy Spirits convicting,the other didn't. Both had the choice And yes I believe God is Sovereign and He can be that and still give man choice.

But that's not the sovereign thing. He's not sovereign like the Queen of England is -- only with permission of the people, and with limitations.

He's completely sovereign. He spoke and the universe came to be. Satan had to ask him permission to mess with Job. He has to ask permission every time. A mongo sea parted and then came back together, because he wanted it. A fish big enough to swallow a man and not upchuck him (which happens if a fish tries to eat something too big) was right below a ship in a storm for a reason and three days later, that same fish did upchuck that man right to the shores of Nineveh. People were trying to push Jesus off a cliff for daring to say he is Jehovah, and he just walked right through that mob. Some dude out to kill more Christians after he helped kill Stephen was traveling on a road and poof -- bright light, the jackass bucked, knocked him off, and he came face to face with Jesus (who was killed a while ago.) Same guy is blinded. Same guy stopped being blind three days later.

That is sovereignty. If God wants it, it happens. If he doesn't, it doesn't.

He doesn't need us. He's self-sufficient. He chooses to make humans knowing we're self-centered, and yet changes some of us into living people. That's just freaky, unless we realize God is thoroughly sovereign. What would we do, if he were not?

 

[preacher4truth]

This truce thing is like: Behave how I like you to behave and I'll be your friend. Really? That's not a control mechanism.

Just wow.

It's funny about the labels thing. There have been several attempts to get some to show, exegetically, who the "us-ward" are in 2 Peter 3:9. Clearly it is describing the elect of God from the beginning of the epistle. That thought follows throughout the following chapters, leading to 3:9. Here the term "usward" is concerning the chosen, the elect, the saved. So here was the label attempted to be planted on me: That I am eiosegitical and "my reading into the Scriptures" accusation.

There was no proof, no showing by the passage this was done, just a plain unsubstantiated and frankly false accusation.

It is sad to see those who are eisegeting Scripture and completely misunderstanding. They generally go grab 1 Timothy 2:4 and go with the word all out of context. I've explained this earlier.

And the fact remains that no one wants to touch 2 Peter 3:9 because it is plain that Peter is speaking of the elect, not to the world abroad. But, can't have the Bible dictating to us beliefs that go against our tradition, can we?

Meant "preceding" chapters not "following".

 

[Depleted]

I totally sure with this statement Lynn:

"
That is "saving faith." It is God's gift, not our inherent goodness. Inherited goodness, yes. Inherent? No way!"

However the rest of your analogy falls short because those same men and women rebelled and rejected God in the wilderness and died there. No one who was born in Egypt was allowed to cross the Jordan except Joshua and the other guy whose name I have forgotten.

Caleb. (Other guy.)

Lamb's blood was a foreshadow of Jesus' blood. God choosing them was foreshadowing of redemption. The OT is one example after another why God can't make a covenant with Man. We're unreliable no matter what God does. He's our reliable.

 

[Depleted]

I don't do good tuning folks out. Sides Jesus said love your enemies, which is hard to do if you tune them out.

I mistakenly thought when he called me "sister" weeks ago, he meant it. Guess I was wrong.

Mom died when I just turned 16, and little brother was 5. Since Dad worked, I was responsible for taking care of brother often. Five year olds have temper tantrum. (14 year olds have temper tantrums. 52 year olds have temper tantrums. Only I have NO temp... oh, never mind. lol) I didn't stop loving my brother in his temper tantrum mode. I simply ignored him until he got over it. And then, we'd talk out the problem and deal with it.

Sound about right, Mom?

 

[Depleted]

So for the CALVINIST or 5 point Reformed folks....

What is the point of evangelism?

I'm a bit bummed because I've answered that many times in many ways, including on this thread.

 

[Depleted]

Yeah I get that...

Do you disagree with the below statement"



Cuz there are folks who believe and PREACH that if you say "by the Blood of Jesus" all their wishes will come true.

Yeah, but there are people out there who still believe "if you don't speak in tongues, you're not saved." Lots of dumb stuff people preach.

 

[Depleted]

Does it matter if the elect are mature in Christ or strive for holiness?

What difference does it make if they are non-elect and sin, since they are going to hell anyway?

John 6:35-40

 

[Depleted]

What reason would the non elect strive to do God's will?

They won't. They weren't chosen/elected. That is the sinful nature of man. We had absolutely no inclination to do God's will.

 

[SovereignGrace]

So i don't have a choice about salvation, or i should say no one has a choice only God.
I can't accept a god that would choose to save some and not choose to save me because i was simply not elected.
Sure we all deserve to die but why save some and watch others die. why? With the God i serve i have no issue with this question.

In an unregenerate condition, your choice is always 'no'.

 

[Depleted]

Ah ok I think I get what your saying.Would that be the same as sanctification?

I never thought of it that way, but irresistible grace may well be our motivation to be sanctified.

 

[Depleted]

Now I need to see a pic of this super cute hubby,I thought I got the only one

Yes,at the instant love was irresistible,but as a lot of people here that have been married and divorced will attest,love is a choice too.

Long-term love is choice. It landing on us wasn't. And yes, we do keep choosing to follow/love God. He still has that hold on us that we can't not, if he has chosen to love us.

 

[SovereignGrace]

He also worshipped idols.

I believe the spirit of Prophecy overtook him temporarily but he was not born of God for he did not believe the,gospel of Jesus.

That's what I mean by those under the Law or "old covenant" like relationship with God,

Versus

People who have a New covenant relationship with God through Jesus.

You can read the OT and see the difference.

The covenant made with Abraham is New and points to Jesus, his promised Seed. Which stems to the Promise God made to Adam and eve, reflected in Able's offering of blood to show how God clothes his parents in animal skin: covering their sin.

Old Covenant is symbolised at Mount Sinai,when folks rejected a personal relationship with God and wanted prophets and written laws instead. Again when they rejected God's kingship and demanded their own King like the,other nations of the world: this getting King Saul.

All who have faith in the Messiah to save them were given the Holy Spirit and called Prophets of old because they had a personal relationship with God.

Most everyone else were under the Old Covenant laws and condemned to death,because they preferred the ways of this world, with its kings and outward laws to,the,ways of God who searches the innermost hearts of all men.

Personally, I believe Nebachudnezzar had God's grace wrought upon his heart seeing how he wrote what he did in Daniel 4.

Solomon worshiped idols and even paid $ to build his wives temples to worship their idols in.

 

[SovereignGrace]

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

A person might think this is directed to the saints,but God wants all people to come to repentance,for it was not directed at only the saints,for they have already repented.

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent.

God wants all people to come to repentance,so I believe when it states not willing that any perish,but all come to repentance,that is means all of mankind coming to repentance.

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Which these scriptures state God wants all people to saved.

We both know God gets no enjoyment in the death of the wicked. At the same time He hasn't willed the salvation of all men.