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Exactly why people shouldn't go for theocracy state. We're no good at it. We're very judgmental. Once we kill off the true heretics, eating fish on Wednesday becomes worth the death sentence. We're always after "I smell better than you" far above following God. Each and every time, the good intention flows right into bad intentions. The very reason God proved establishing his own nation doesn't work either. It's a heart by heart thing to belong to God. Not a national thing. It cannot be kept on a national level.
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Well, yes they do 
It's flimsy at best since it is defended by context-less verses that say "whosoever" and they are like "see, see! whosoever!" and call it free will.
Chances are your last sentence is more likely though and I think that state of mind stems from pride and resistance to God's sovereignty. Hard for a prideful person to admit that they have to submit to God's will and realize he is in control. It also shows a lack of faith and trust IMO.
I asked earlier on this thread for a clearly defined free-will stance and am still waiting for it. WoF would say our will is free to the extent that we can actually speak things into existence like God can and that God can't actually do anything unless we allow it. They do think we are little "I ams" after all. I know most on the free will side don't believe this, but they are still incapable of defining it in a way I understand which leads me to believe that they don't understand their own position.
On the one hand they admit that salvation is God given and man doesn't do anything, BUT I(we) have to...
They always have to throw that "but I (we) have to..." in there which completely undermines what they say about it's all God and not us.
It's flimsy at best since it is defended by context-less verses that say "whosoever" and they are like "see, see! whosoever!" and call it free will.
Chances are your last sentence is more likely though and I think that state of mind stems from pride and resistance to God's sovereignty. Hard for a prideful person to admit that they have to submit to God's will and realize he is in control. It also shows a lack of faith and trust IMO.
I asked earlier on this thread for a clearly defined free-will stance and am still waiting for it. WoF would say our will is free to the extent that we can actually speak things into existence like God can and that God can't actually do anything unless we allow it. They do think we are little "I ams" after all. I know most on the free will side don't believe this, but they are still incapable of defining it in a way I understand which leads me to believe that they don't understand their own position.
On the one hand they admit that salvation is God given and man doesn't do anything, BUT I(we) have to...
They always have to throw that "but I (we) have to..." in there which completely undermines what they say about it's all God and not us.
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All I got that all Calvinist believe is the 5 solas and 5 TULIP petals and as Trofimus and I discussed in a less judgmental thread...how y'all explain the 5 TULIP petals differ also due to culture and beliefs.
I can give you the one I agree with.
T...total depravity, mankind has fallen into a state of sin. They do have free will to choose good and bad, but because of the circumstances they were born in they sin.
This is shown by babies and their selfish focus. That fact we have to teach our kids to share, think of others feelings, etc. (side note: it's a blessing that kids learn these lessons better than many adults. However sad that some were not taught the compassionate values God shows us in the Bible)
U ..unconditional election...nothing you did made God chose you. God choses His elect for His own purposes and makes them clean and teaches them godliness.
Jesus says that it was not because the men were more evil that the tower fell on them. We are told all men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. It is only by God's grace goodness is found in the earth.
L..,limited atonement (still don't agree fully with this one) basically that Jesus only died for the sins of the elect.
I believe in Universal atonement....Jesus died for the world but it was only effective for God's elect. God desires for the world to be saved but he only elects to give an elect few grace that goes beyond the common grace he gives everyone.
I irresistible grace....God draws people and changes their heart until they want Him and His will. This, is done by many different means. Personally he showed me how harmful to my loved one and myself my sins are and taught me to trust His wisdom and believe in His love for me.
I agree with this concept and believe it to be justifying grace. However, I also believe in previent grace as I understand it to be similar to common grace.
P perservance of the Saint...what God begins by adopting a person into His family by the baptism of the Holy Spirit, God will bring to fullness and completion.
*****
Just because I ask questions doesn't mean I didn't learn anything. Sometimes the questions are directed specifically at that person because believe it or not...not all Calvinist believe the same thing.
I can give you the one I agree with.
T...total depravity, mankind has fallen into a state of sin. They do have free will to choose good and bad, but because of the circumstances they were born in they sin.
This is shown by babies and their selfish focus. That fact we have to teach our kids to share, think of others feelings, etc. (side note: it's a blessing that kids learn these lessons better than many adults. However sad that some were not taught the compassionate values God shows us in the Bible)
U ..unconditional election...nothing you did made God chose you. God choses His elect for His own purposes and makes them clean and teaches them godliness.
Jesus says that it was not because the men were more evil that the tower fell on them. We are told all men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. It is only by God's grace goodness is found in the earth.
L..,limited atonement (still don't agree fully with this one) basically that Jesus only died for the sins of the elect.
I believe in Universal atonement....Jesus died for the world but it was only effective for God's elect. God desires for the world to be saved but he only elects to give an elect few grace that goes beyond the common grace he gives everyone.
I irresistible grace....God draws people and changes their heart until they want Him and His will. This, is done by many different means. Personally he showed me how harmful to my loved one and myself my sins are and taught me to trust His wisdom and believe in His love for me.
I agree with this concept and believe it to be justifying grace. However, I also believe in previent grace as I understand it to be similar to common grace.
P perservance of the Saint...what God begins by adopting a person into His family by the baptism of the Holy Spirit, God will bring to fullness and completion.
*****
Just because I ask questions doesn't mean I didn't learn anything. Sometimes the questions are directed specifically at that person because believe it or not...not all Calvinist believe the same thing.
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I had read about Gruet but I saw no comment that Calvin had made on the situation as he had with Servetus. Whether Gruet was an atheist or not,that is not a reason to execute him.Again we're not living under the Law.The wheat and tares grow together until the final judgement. Now if he committed crime worthy of death that is a different thing. But we dont burn people and drown people like the Puritans or the RCC did. We have separation of church and state now for that very reason. Politics and religion were becoming entwined and innocent people were being executed who disagreed with the pope. Now we allow the law to take care of criminals and those who blaspheme God,we leave that in His hands.
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I call them on that all the time. I get blank looks and no answers. And then I see the same people repeating it. 20 years of calling people on that one and not once has it developed into any argument beyond the typical arguments of abortionists -- "That's how I see it and you can't stop me from seeing it that way."
I don't know if that is stubborn pride or a blind spot. But, if it is a blind spot, time to see an ophthalmologist, because that's one huge blood vessel that burst in your eye. That can't be good.
I don't know if that is stubborn pride or a blind spot. But, if it is a blind spot, time to see an ophthalmologist, because that's one huge blood vessel that burst in your eye. That can't be good.
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Majority doesn't make a thing right
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At what point do you think someone should be killed?
Incest. Part of the Law. If anyone committed incest, they were stoned to death.
How is that connected? Because 75% of people today who commit incest were the victims of incest. It is literally a generational sin. If we would kill the people who did it the first time, less of a tendency with the victim. AND less victims!
Seeing what happens with WoF teachers today, and their victims, I'm not so uninclined to think maybe the solution would be to kill them. I despise false gospels being taught as THE gospel.
So, seriously, (and this has nothing to do with Calvinism), where is your line in the sand? And don't bring it back to God because he didn't have kind words to say about false preachers either. They will not meet good ends, unless there is a donkey and a bright light on their path somewhere along the way. And, if there is, he'd bring it before they died.
(BTW, we have separation of church and state today because the Founding Fathers were no fools. They were uniting 13 colonies established under one religion or another, and that's the only way you can unite that many religions against something else. lol)
Incest. Part of the Law. If anyone committed incest, they were stoned to death.
How is that connected? Because 75% of people today who commit incest were the victims of incest. It is literally a generational sin. If we would kill the people who did it the first time, less of a tendency with the victim. AND less victims!
Seeing what happens with WoF teachers today, and their victims, I'm not so uninclined to think maybe the solution would be to kill them. I despise false gospels being taught as THE gospel.
So, seriously, (and this has nothing to do with Calvinism), where is your line in the sand? And don't bring it back to God because he didn't have kind words to say about false preachers either. They will not meet good ends, unless there is a donkey and a bright light on their path somewhere along the way. And, if there is, he'd bring it before they died.
(BTW, we have separation of church and state today because the Founding Fathers were no fools. They were uniting 13 colonies established under one religion or another, and that's the only way you can unite that many religions against something else. lol)
K
Quote "You want us to defend Calvin, but don't feel responsible to defend Wesley, (who is, indeed, the beginning of the Pentecostal roots.)
Nope. Read back,many said they hadn't read Calvin or didnt agree with him.So I dont see why anyone feels the need to defend him suddenly. Could care less about Wesley and someone wants to start a thread on him we can talk about him and go back and forth on what he believed. How is it fair for you to say you're not following Calvin the man but Jesus but not fair for me to say the same?
Quote "You know we're not defending Calvin, but you take off on things Calvin said, (and exact quotes, so unless you have a photographic memory, you do know the sources)"
If you're not defending Calvin what difference do the sources make? If you put the quotes in google you'll find the sources.
Quote "and then repeat you don't want to take this discussion off course. You're the one who did that and then kept doing that.
Yes,there are rabbit trails in every thread and since this is my thread I can take it where I wish. I did not think people who did not want to identify with Calvin would suddenly rush to defend him. So yes,Im answering what people are saying but I didnt think it was going to go into the ditch over questions about Calvins character.
Quote "You want us to stick by the Jews by outing Calvin, but when we won't, you come back to "What's Gods?"
Lynn you're getting way to personal over this. I asked what everyone believed concerning the Jews being chosen a long way back among other questions. I said what I believe concerning the Jews and left it at that. If certain people are "elect" it begs the question of where the Jews who are called "chosen" fit into Reformed/Calvinist theology.To that there was various answers by people saying that not all believed the same thing. The quotes Calvin made begs the question of how he saw the elect vs the chosen. If you cant handle critical questions of Calvin perhaps you need to skip this part of the thread. Others have given their answers without being defensive.
Quote " And then when I tell "What's God's?" suddenly there is no reason to defend your belief."
The Bible is the reason to defend my belief concerning the Jews. As far as how people talk in a forum that is a loooong way from a man that was a preacher/reformer with power to influence punishments and executions. I thought that was a poor comparison that is why the answer was "What is Gods"
Quote "Quite a few circles going on here, but not from Calvinists."
So if you think Im out to get you and am being insincere why are you here? I was up front about what I believe and that I was wanting to know what Reformed/Calvinists believe but that I would not change my beliefs. But when the questions get difficult suddenly Im attacking Calvinists? If I put a thread up about Pentecostals and say ask away I expect the majority of questions to be difficult and critical. As Ive said,some here believe we're possessed. I could care less,I know what I believe.
Quote "I really have been listening. And now I'm discourage because the only two people on this thread who say they want to learn what Calvinist believe haven't been listening to what Calvinists believe."
What I have learned is that there are many terms,many different views,beliefs and ideas under the umbrella of Reformed/Calvinists. Its not like this can be understood in a few hours.I havent gotten to read the Institutes yet. I may agree with parts of it,I dont know. But understanding and believing are two different things and I made clear I did not believe in Calvinism. Shoot you're asking Forth questions yourself for clarity how can you not expect me to?!
Quote "We do not agree on most issues anymore than anyone else, but there is a core to Reformed Theology, and that was ignored. Or was it? Do you understand what Calvinism is anymore after 60 pages of this than you did when you first wrote that OP? If so, by now you can tell us what Calvinist do believe."
No,I cant tell you what all Calvinists believe! You yourselves have said it varies. Some say they dont even agree with all of TULIP which seemed to me to be the foundation of Calvinism.I do understand better the term elect but still not clear on those who are not elect. People here are saying things against those who believe in free will and how its wrong and not Biblical and I haven't engaged them.Perhaps I will in another thread. Ive learned that Calvinism is a very hard belief to nail down.Too many opposing ideas and no one seems to agree whether they want to identify with Calvin or not.Its confusing to someone on the outside.
Quote "And if you an Ariel cannot do that, then this really was 60 pages of wasted time!"
I dont think you can understand this doctrine in 60 pages with so many varied answers to each question. There are books and books on these subjects for and against. If you thought we'd get it 60 pages,Im sorry,it seems more complicated than that. Much more.Its hard to get to the core of the belief if not everyone agrees what the core is. Its confusing. And thats not our fault.
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The RCC was anti-semtic as were many of the early church fathers. Ive been over this in many threads.The Replacement Theology came from the RCC and was passed down to other churches. That is why many Christians in Germany could turn a blind eye while over 6 million Jews were slaughtered on their doorstep.
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I guess we have finished talking about what CALVINIST believe and have open the floor to opinions on the replacement theology?
Cuz as someone pointed out...it various a lot on both Reformed and Free will churchs (see Lynn, I found the counterpart to reformed)
It's a different dividing line.
I am not anti Semitic but neither am I pro Israelit nation.
.I believe the only thing that made Israel special is that God chose to have Jesus born to that nation ( which he molded and shaped by His prophets and miracles and constant forgiveness and mercy) and they were entrusted with the prophecies of how he would save the world. Encoded so the enemy didn't understand the war plan, but obvious to anyone with spiritual eyes opened by God.
Cuz as someone pointed out...it various a lot on both Reformed and Free will churchs (see Lynn, I found the counterpart to reformed)
It's a different dividing line.
I am not anti Semitic but neither am I pro Israelit nation.
.I believe the only thing that made Israel special is that God chose to have Jesus born to that nation ( which he molded and shaped by His prophets and miracles and constant forgiveness and mercy) and they were entrusted with the prophecies of how he would save the world. Encoded so the enemy didn't understand the war plan, but obvious to anyone with spiritual eyes opened by God.
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At what point do you think someone should be killed?
Incest. Part of the Law. If anyone committed incest, they were stoned to death.
How is that connected? Because 75% of people today who commit incest were the victims of incest. It is literally a generational sin. If we would kill the people who did it the first time, less of a tendency with the victim. AND less victims!
Seeing what happens with WoF teachers today, and their victims, I'm not so uninclined to think maybe the solution would be to kill them. I despise false gospels being taught as THE gospel.
So, seriously, (and this has nothing to do with Calvinism), where is your line in the sand? And don't bring it back to God because he didn't have kind words to say about false preachers either. They will not meet good ends, unless there is a donkey and a bright light on their path somewhere along the way. And, if there is, he'd bring it before they died.
(BTW, we have separation of church and state today because the Founding Fathers were no fools. They were uniting 13 colonies established under one religion or another, and that's the only way you can unite that many religions against something else. lol)
Incest. Part of the Law. If anyone committed incest, they were stoned to death.
How is that connected? Because 75% of people today who commit incest were the victims of incest. It is literally a generational sin. If we would kill the people who did it the first time, less of a tendency with the victim. AND less victims!
Seeing what happens with WoF teachers today, and their victims, I'm not so uninclined to think maybe the solution would be to kill them. I despise false gospels being taught as THE gospel.
So, seriously, (and this has nothing to do with Calvinism), where is your line in the sand? And don't bring it back to God because he didn't have kind words to say about false preachers either. They will not meet good ends, unless there is a donkey and a bright light on their path somewhere along the way. And, if there is, he'd bring it before they died.
(BTW, we have separation of church and state today because the Founding Fathers were no fools. They were uniting 13 colonies established under one religion or another, and that's the only way you can unite that many religions against something else. lol)
My line is what the law says it is. Commit crime you pay.Take a life you pay for that. But when it comes to false doctrine that will be dealt with in the final judgement. We are to read and study so we can know what is false doctrine. As you said above,a theocracy does not work. Take a look at Islam,they dont even know which is the right belief and murder anyone who disagrees with their view.No,that is up to God to decide.
How do you define "free will"? And I do not understand the rest of the sentence... (after the "but because")
OK, so when I say:
"Limited atonement means that Jesus died effectively only for the sins of the elect, even though His death and resurrection is so powerful it can pay for the sins of the whole creation/universe"
... we would agree?
I have never heard of such view. God accepts a person into His family by the baptism of the Holy Spirit? Are you sure about this? It does not seem correct to me at all...
OK, so when I say:
"Limited atonement means that Jesus died effectively only for the sins of the elect, even though His death and resurrection is so powerful it can pay for the sins of the whole creation/universe"
... we would agree?
I have never heard of such view. God accepts a person into His family by the baptism of the Holy Spirit? Are you sure about this? It does not seem correct to me at all...
I do not want to get into this topic, but read for example:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost
The German Nazi policy had almost nothing to do with any replacement theology. If Germany had huge Polish or Czech minority, it would be 6 million of Polish or Czechs.
And the real Christians in Germany were killed and persecuted too.
Not everybody who calls himself a Christian, is a Christian. You should know it in the US.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost
The German Nazi policy had almost nothing to do with any replacement theology. If Germany had huge Polish or Czech minority, it would be 6 million of Polish or Czechs.
And the real Christians in Germany were killed and persecuted too.
Not everybody who calls himself a Christian, is a Christian. You should know it in the US.