Calvinists: The Just Shall Live BEFORE Having Faith

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UnderGrace

Guest
#301
#301
Yes I too found it unbelievable at first that the burden of proof rests with prosecution, upon further study I did learn that
the burden may shift in civil cases if the party establishes a prima facie case that is in all respects sufficient.
There are two main standards, viz. proof on balance of probabilities and proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
Collins Dictionary of Law © W.J. Stewart, 2006

Not sure if it is these days, or the days before these days, and certainly not related to this thread, but handy to know in case one should find oneself in court on a civil matter.;);)




preacher4truth said:
But of course... ↑ ↑

Unbelievable. No, wait, I take that back. Totally believable these days.
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PennEd

PennEd

Senior Member
#302
Apr 22, 2013
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UnderGrace said:
Powerful and right on!!!:)

Belief and faith are not works and they are not the gift. Salvation is the gift. Choose this day whom you will serve.
God wishes all would come to repentance.

BTW, the burden of proof rests on the prosecution not the defense. Innocent til proven guilty. :p
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I don't understand why they both can't be gifts from God.

I have asked this question before but not much of an answer from anyone.

WHERE DOES FAITH COME FROM IF NOT FROM GOD?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#304
#304
PennEd said:
I don't understand why they both can't be gifts from God.

I have asked this question before but not much of an answer from anyone.

WHERE DOES FAITH COME FROM IF NOT FROM GOD?
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depends on what your faith is in
 
BenFTW

BenFTW

Senior Member
#305
Oct 7, 2012
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preacher4truth said:
You're equating faith in Santa with supernatural faith. Huge mistake, and not one Scripture to back it up? It isn't even expressing the "simplicity of faith" as you attempt to dodge the reality you are in fact equating Biblical faith with faith in fairy tales and fictional characters.

Your attempted disclaimer doesn't erase your error.

Biblical faith isn't inherent, it isn't the faith you're speaking of at all. Biblical faith is obtained, 2 Peter 1:1, is not innate, it is the gift of God, note Ephesians 1:19. You deny that it is a gift of God, which is invalid and unbiblical. Faith comes from God, it is external, coming from God and his word; Romans 10:17.

Also, belief isn't the accepting of facts as if it were some mere mental assent.

You really need to get into Scripture instead of your own thoughts and opinions. You also state that the glory for believing goes to the believer. That's a rather unwise remark. There is no boasting, yet you're suggesting one point man can boast in, and making that his believing. Then you say all glory goes to God? You can't have it both ways, it's one or the other. Again, there is no boasting 1 Corinthians 1:26-31.

It seems you do this often, playing both sides of the issue, this time man gets some glory whole God gets it all. Faith is presented as simple, something we did, as easy as believing in Santa, then you throw in a disclaimer that is "not really" after said remarks.

Please get into Scripture, you're in serious error with your post, it does not represent Biblical faith at all.
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A man that was drowning does not boast in his belief that the life guard could save him and that is why he stretched forth his hand. He boasts in his savior, not in his God given ability to stretch forth his hand and be saved. His eyes are not on himself, his boast is not that he believed. His boast is one of gratitude for being saved.

As for faith, it cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. It cometh, as one is awakened if you will to the facts (the truth). It is not as if God has put faith in a concoction and poured it into a bottle to drip into the mouths of those He wishes to save. His desire to save all contradicts with your premise of election, and that Christ died for all also opposes your idea of faith and salvation.

We are not God's slaves, robotic creatures only believing because He has deemed it so by injecting faith into us. What pleasure is it for God to have a man believe if the man's belief is simply instilled by God? That is like drawing a masterpiece and praising your son for his work, illogical.
 
PennEd

PennEd

Senior Member
#306
Apr 22, 2013
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#306
eternally-gratefull said:
depends on what your faith is in
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The Faith to believe God exists. The Faith that He rewards those who seek Him.
THE FAITH TO BELUEVE THE GOSPEL WHEN IT IS PREACHED.
That's the faith I'm talking about.
Where does that faith come from?
 
PennEd

PennEd

Senior Member
#307
Apr 22, 2013
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#307
BenFTW said:
A man that was drowning does not boast in his belief that the life guard could save him and that is why he stretched forth his hand. He boasts in his savior, not in his God given ability to stretch forth his hand and be saved. His eyes are not on himself, his boast is not that he believed. His boast is one of gratitude for being saved.

As for faith, it cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. It cometh, as one is awakened if you will to the facts (the truth). It is not as if God has put faith in a concoction and poured it into a bottle to drip into the mouths of those He wishes to save. His desire to save all contradicts with your premise of election, and that Christ died for all also opposes your idea of faith and salvation.

We are not God's slaves, robotic creatures only believing because He has deemed it so by injecting faith into us. What pleasure is it for God to have a man believe if the man's belief is simply instilled by God? That is like drawing a masterpiece and praising your son for his work, illogical.
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Your analogy is flawed. We were NOT drowning. We were dead. A dead man can cannot stretch out his hand.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#308
#308
PennEd said:
The Faith to believe God exists. The Faith that He rewards those who seek Him.
THE FAITH TO BELUEVE THE GOSPEL WHEN IT IS PREACHED.
That's the faith I'm talking about.
Where does that faith come from?
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who died on the cross. Wrote the word. Gave the law to lead us, convicts us, teaches us, shows us?

for apart from these we can never have the faith you ask about.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#309
#309
PennEd said:
Your analogy is flawed. We were NOT drowning. We were dead. A dead can cannot stretch out his hand.
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then we have no capacity to have faith

a drowning person is dead, if he is not rescued.
 
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UnderGrace

Guest
#310
#310
Yes I agree in some places faith is referred as being given in measure with regards to using the gifts each person is given.

However in Ephesians 2:8 salvation is the gift not faith.

If one believes that faith is a gift to enable salvation then one would have to agree that God chooses to give only some this faith for salvation and not others?

Unless one argues that God gives the faith to all but not all accept the gift of faith?

I have not yet heard one person testify that God gave them faith to believe but they refused...have you?


PennEd said:
I don't understand why they both can't be gifts from God.

I have asked this question before but not much of an answer from anyone.

WHERE DOES FAITH COME FROM IF NOT FROM GOD?
Click to expand...
 
PennEd

PennEd

Senior Member
#311
Apr 22, 2013
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#311
eternally-gratefull said:
who died on the cross. Wrote the word. Gave the law to lead us, convicts us, teaches us, shows us?

for apart from these we can never have the faith you ask about.
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I think you're making my case brother. God does all those things. So you acknowledge that the faith comes from God. I agree wholeheartedly.
 
BenFTW

BenFTW

Senior Member
#312
Oct 7, 2012
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#312
PennEd said:
Your analogy is flawed. We were NOT drowning. We were dead. A dead man can cannot stretch out his hand.
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It is not flawed if the drowning man is incapable of swimming. He cannot save himself, and in that example, it is sufficient to make a point that parallels our inability to save ourselves. Emphasizing that we are saved by grace through faith, faith being our response to God's conviction.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#313
Jul 3, 2015
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#313
PennEd said:
I don't understand why they both can't be gifts from God.

I have asked this question before but not much of an answer from anyone.

WHERE DOES FAITH COME FROM IF NOT FROM GOD?
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The evidence. Paul gives a partial descriptor of faith that people think is the be all and end all of faith, but it is not. He is talking about our faith being in the HOPE of things to come, that is, the promises of Christ fulfilled at the end of this age: that is what we have not seen.

Elsewhere in Scripture, we are told that God has made Himself EVIDENT to all.

For since the creation of the world His invisibleattributes are clearly seen,
being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead.
​

Those who suppress this truth have put themselves on
the throne of their lives. It is called the pride of life.
​
 
Locutus

Locutus

Senior Member
#315
Feb 10, 2017
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Mat 9:29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.

Did these get given faith first and then JC calls it "your" faith?
 
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UnderGrace

Guest
#316
#316
Needs repeating!!:D

God has made Himself evident to all. :D:D


Magenta said:
The evidence. Paul gives a partial descriptor of faith that people think is the be all and end all of faith, but it is not. He is talking about our faith being in the HOPE of things to come, that is, the promises of Christ fulfilled at the end of this age: that is what we have not seen.

Elsewhere in Scripture, we are told that God has made Himself EVIDENT to all.

For since the creation of the world His invisibleattributes are clearly seen,
being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead.
​

Those who suppress this truth have put themselves on
the throne of their lives. It is called the pride of life.
​
Click to expand...
 
PennEd

PennEd

Senior Member
#317
Apr 22, 2013
12,962
8,671
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#317
UnderGrace said:
Yes I agree in some places faith is referred as being given in measure with regards to using the gifts each person is given.

However in Ephesians 2:8 salvation is the gift not faith.

If one believes that faith is a gift to enable salvation then one would have to agree that God chooses to give only some this faith for salvation and not others?

Unless one argues that God gives the faith to all but not all accept the gift of faith?

I have not yet heard one person testify that God gave them faith to believe but they refused...have you?
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Well sister that's good, but doesn't answer the question though does it. Plus I totally disagree with your reading of Ephesians 2.
Where does your faith to believe come from?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#318
#318
PennEd said:
I think you're making my case brother. God does all those things. So you acknowledge that the faith comes from God. I agree wholeheartedly.
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Thats what empowers us to have faiht, But we still have to have faith, God will not force us to do it.. Many will have the same opportunity and never have faith.

Thats my whole point, we still have to make a decision, the drowning person could have kept trying to save himself and died.. The one who relented and said ok, Save me is the one who will be saved.
 
BenFTW

BenFTW

Senior Member
#319
Oct 7, 2012
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#319
UnderGrace said:
Yes I too found it unbelievable at first that the burden of proof rests with prosecution, upon further study I did learn that
the burden may shift in civil cases if the party establishes a prima facie case that is in all respects sufficient.
There are two main standards, viz. proof on balance of probabilities and proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
Collins Dictionary of Law © W.J. Stewart, 2006

Not sure if it is these days, or the days before these days, and certainly not related to this thread, but handy to know in case one should find oneself in court on a civil matter.;);)
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In theory yes, but a defense is still made, no? The jury hears both parties and based upon such.. hearings, they then make an informed decision, right? It seems to me then the defense is just as important if not more so for the innocence to be retained.
 
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UnderGrace

Guest
#320
#320
So are you saying salvation is not a gift?

Total depravity is not total inability.

We have the ability to believe the Gospel and put faith in the finished work of the cross for salvation, it may be life circumstances that drive us there but we can make that choice.


PennEd said:
Well sister that's good, but doesn't answer the question though does it. Plus I totally disagree with your reading of Ephesians 2.
Where does your faith to believe come from?
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