Calvinists: The Just Shall Live BEFORE Having Faith

[BillG]

I'm going to be soon late!
I think you are confusing the gift of faith (the gift of belief) with the gospel.
The gospel is not faith.
The gospel is the good news.
Faith is believing it.

I know it is.
In fact a couple of days ago I posted what I thought the Gospel is.
Can't remember at the moment what thread it was. I used Zacchaeus as an example of the Gospel.
Jesus came to Zacchaeus, said, I'm gonna eat wth you.
Zacchaeus called him Lord, placed his faith in him. Then he made recompense to those he stole from.

 

[BillG]

It is the new birth, being born again, being born from above.

Yeh I know that. The person I asked that question to did not respond.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Chose or knew?

If I can explain why I struggle with this.

My ancestry is Muslim.
Shocking childhood.
Will not go into it.
So I have two brothers and my mum.

I came to faith.
I heard the word and believed.
My two brothers have heard the word and do not believe.
They are as still mixed up as I was.

My mum very mixed up heard the word, not by going to church.
Only as a result of God restoring our relationship by me being like Jesus (please note I'm not boast here)
Muslim lady now a Christian.

I just don't get why God would cost choose me, my mum and not my brothers.
Yes he is sovereign.

But it breaks my heart they at the moment are not saved yet I am.
They are both so broken and hurt, they can't see the woods from the trees.
Just like I was.

I can't give up on them and won't.
Yet funnily enough I did that with my mum.
Now she is a believer.

Why did God choose me and not my brothers?

eklegomai.......

1. to pick out, choose, to pick or choose out for one's self
   
   1. choosing one out of many, i.e. Jesus choosing his disciples
      
   2. choosing one for an office
      
   3. of God choosing whom he judged fit to receive his favours and separated from the rest of mankind to be peculiarly his own and to be attended continually by his gracious oversight
      
      1. i.e. the Israelites
   4. of God the Father choosing Christians, as those whom he set apart from the irreligious multitude as dear unto himself, and whom he has rendered, through faith in Christ, citizens in the Messianic kingdom: (James 2:5) so that the ground of the choice lies in Christ and his merits only
      
      In all of these, knowing who would choose Him is not an option. He handpicked each and everyone of His elect from before the creation of the world.

 

[followjesus]

It is true that God inhabits eternity. God inhabits all of eternity all the time. There is no part of eternity that God is not there.

God made Adam and then Eve. When Adam rebelled against God and took of the fruit of the tree of good and evil God was there. God passed death upon Adam and Eve and through them to all mankind as yet not created.

Man having the knowledge of good and evil is like God in his knowledge of good and evil.

Is man able to choose good? Jesus said that man could indeed choose good.

Mt 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Man can and must choose. God is glorified that man should choose good over evil. It is the goodness of God that leads men to repentance. There is great rejoicing in heaven when a soul comes to the saving knowledge of Christ.

Sin brought forth death. The law made transgression personal. Christ saves the souls that turn from sin to Him. No soul is ever saved against it's will. Men will be cast into the lake of fire against their will for the day of redemption for them is past.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Man can and must choose. God is glorified that man should choose good over evil. It is the goodness of God that leads men to repentance. There is great rejoicing in heaven when a soul comes to the saving knowledge of Christ.

Sin brought forth death. The law made transgression personal. Christ saves the souls that turn from sin to Him. No soul is ever saved against it's will. Men will be cast into the lake of fire against their will for the day of redemption for them is past."


amen. there was a time we were powerless to choose good over evil because we had been enslaved by our nature inherited from adam. this inheritance is obvious in the first son, murdering the second son. God told Him Just do what is right, if you dont sin is trying to enslave you, but you must overcome it" His new double nature gives Him the choice of good, or evil. He also Has the choice to offer a good sacrifice rather than leftovers with a poor countenance.

i think your comment is dead on the money.

romans 6 " What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? (<<< our choice)

17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 19I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. ( we used to sin freely being unaware, now that were aware were serving sin, we are to yied our members to righteousness now made possible by our redeemer)
20For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."


when one quotes v 23, instead of using ot to support oor point, if we learn to see it within its own biblical context of what paul is saying, it makes sense. Though it is a gift Given of Gods will, salvation is not a gift we cant refuse to accept, we can and must choose Jesus Christ above the World and every voice in the world pulling us from Him. just to accept the truth that its our choice, is a good beginning. because until we do well never make the choice beliving there is no choice. when Gods will IS that we choose Him.

 

[BillG]

Night night peeps.

God bless you all.
May we all remember that God loves us as much as he loves Jesus.

That's true, whether you believe it or not.

 

[Nehemiah6]

yes not separate from the gospel but the faith or power of the gospel form the faith of God not seen to the same spirit of faith as it is written.The mutual faith of Christ freely given to all believers.

If God were giving "the faith of Christ" freely to people He would give it TO THE WHOLE HUMAN RACE. Please note carefully:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (John 3:16,17)

Why don't you take a few moments to digest this Scripture and see whether what I said would be true? Then believe God and set aside some man-made ideas about saving faith.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Night night peeps.

Good night!!

 

[followjesus]

I know it is.
In fact a couple of days ago I posted what I thought the Gospel is.
Can't remember at the moment what thread it was. I used Zacchaeus as an example of the Gospel.
Jesus came to Zacchaeus, said, I'm gonna eat wth you.
Zacchaeus called him Lord, placed his faith in him. Then he made recompense to those he stole from.

deliverance from death, and the offer of eternal Life...seems to be good news to a people who are all condemned to death. it seems as if some would think " if i have to stop sinning...it is not good news anymore" faith always expresses actions. the woman who comes in crying is acting in Her faith and the sorrow of repentance. even the thief on the cross, He exhibits His faith in the actions he is able to. when the other thief is condemning and insulting Jesus, He interceeds and openly acknowledges Jesus as He is dying beside Him.

Faith is not to be confused with a though that never leads to action. faith is abraham believing Gods promise, and obeying what He said would bring the blessing. its Noah believing God when He told Him about the flood, and obeying the directions God gave Him building the ark, believing it would save im because God told Him it would. to have faith we have to believe the One our Faith is in, rather than explaining as many do ( not you) that faith means we need to not believe His words and Just believe He died and rose.


faith always comes out in what we do. if we believe Jesus, we understand He is plenty and sufficient, and He who is the One we are to believe in Has carefully explained salvation to us. and provided His intercession for us, His continuing advocacy when we fall short. God is incredibly Good, ! God bless you biig

 

[John146]

1)

3) You've got to get beyond what Scripture says to what it means. You don't (and I say this constructively) possess much if any critical thinking skills concerning doctrine, Scripture, the Gospel, God &c yet you should.

There you have it. Scripture is not our final authority. We are. I couldn't disagree more. I believe God meant what He said and said what He meant. I allow Scripture to be as honest as possible, literally. I'm glad it's not up to my critical thinking skills when it comes to believing what I read in Scripture. What this world needs are more people who simply believe and base doctrine on what God has said.

 

[BillG]

deliverance from death, and the offer of eternal Life...seems to be good news to a people who are all condemned to death. it seems as if some would think " if i have to stop sinning...it is not good news anymore" faith always expresses actions. the woman who comes in crying is acting in Her faith and the sorrow of repentance. even the thief on the cross, He exhibits His faith in the actions he is able to. when the other thief is condemning and insulting Jesus, He interceeds and openly acknowledges Jesus as He is dying beside Him.

Faith is not to be confused with a though that never leads to action. faith is abraham believing Gods promise, and obeying what He said would bring the blessing. its Noah believing God when He told Him about the flood, and obeying the directions God gave Him building the ark, believing it would save im because God told Him it would. to have faith we have to believe the One our Faith is in, rather than explaining as many do ( not you) that faith means we need to not believe His words and Just believe He died and rose.


faith always comes out in what we do. if we believe Jesus, we understand He is plenty and sufficient, and He who is the One we are to believe in Has carefully explained salvation to us. and provided His intercession for us, His continuing advocacy when we fall short. God is incredibly Good, ! God bless you biig

Genuine faith will bear fruit.
God bless you as well followjesus

He is indeed the one we should follow.

 

[SovereignGrace]

There you have it. Scripture is not our final authority. We are. I couldn't disagree more. I believe God meant what He said and said what He meant. I allow Scripture to be as honest as possible, literally. I'm glad it's not up to my critical thinking skills when it comes to believing what I read in Scripture. What this world needs are more people who simply believe and base doctrine on what God has said.

That's not what he said. Quit misrepresenting him. What he means is not everything we read is taken in a literal sense. David wanted to rest under God's wings(paraphrasing that). Yet, God is not a bird, either.

 

[preacher4truth]

Being a missionary baptist, I have had the pleasure of speaking with a few missionaries. Granted, none witnessed this first handed, they said they had other missionaries tell them what you've been told.

I totally reject it. God speaks to us via His word. I don't believe these extra-biblical accounts at all.

It's all a myth and has never happened. It's called hyper-arminianism.

This is why it is correct to conclude that those who claim to get all they need for faith and practice from Scripture is actually false, they are not Sola Scriptura. Most people who do this still think they are -- they're not, and they've just proven it.

It goes along with Soli Deo Gloria, you can't have that and think your decision is what gave you eternal life.

This is why you cannot go by any church's or persons SoF. What they really believe comes out in what they teach, anyone can put stuff down on a paper and say that is what they believe. It doesn't make it true.

 

[preacher4truth]

There you have it. Scripture is not our final authority. We are. I couldn't disagree more. I believe God meant what He said and said what He meant. I allow Scripture to be as honest as possible, literally. I'm glad it's not up to my critical thinking skills when it comes to believing what I read in Scripture. What this world needs are more people who simply believe and base doctrine on what God has said.

Never said that at all. See? This is classic you, you know what someone/Scripture says, you don't know what someone/Scripture means. You do this to both Scripture and what people say coming to wrong conclusions.

For the record I believe in and am totally Sola Scriptura, so your little slam in the end of the above is unfounded on my person. You're generally putting yourself on some pedestal as if only you believe Scripture, and arrogantly suggesting whomever you are debating doesn't. You realize that is arrogant, false and callow, correct?

 

[BillG]

There you have it. Scripture is not our final authority. We are. I couldn't disagree more. I believe God meant what He said and said what He meant. I allow Scripture to be as honest as possible, literally. I'm glad it's not up to my critical thinking skills when it comes to believing what I read in Scripture. What this world needs are more people who simply believe and base doctrine on what God has said.

I allow scripture to be as honest as possible, literally?

If scripture is not honest then it's a lie. Might as well tear it up and throw it in the bin.

You say I'm glad it's not up to my critical thinking skills when it comes to believing what I read in scripture.
Yet you post verses that you believe to be true. Therefore you have posted according to your critical thinking to post verses that are true to you and your theology.

We all do it.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Never said that at all. See? This is classic you, you know what someone/Scripture says, you don't know what someone/Scripture means. You do this to both Scripture and what people say coming to wrong conclusions.

For the record I believe in and am totally Sola Scriptura, so your little slam in the end of the above is unfounded on my person. You're generally putting yourself on some pedestal as if only you believe Scripture, and arrogantly suggesting whomever you are debating doesn't. You realize that is arrogant, false and callow, correct?

This is him to a tee...

 

[SovereignGrace]

I allow scripture to be as honest as possible, literally?

If scripture is not honest then it's a lie. Might as well tear it up and throw it in the bin.

You say I'm glad it's not up to my critical thinking skills when it comes to believing what I read in scripture.
Yet you post verses that you believe to be true. Therefore you have posted according to your critical thinking to post verses that are true to you and your theology.

We all do it.

His thinking skills are critical..as in critical condition.

 

[Chester]

Chose or knew?

If I can explain why I struggle with this.

My ancestry is Muslim.
Shocking childhood.
Will not go into it.
So I have two brothers and my mum.

I came to faith.
I heard the word and believed.
My two brothers have heard the word and do not believe.
They are as still mixed up as I was.

My mum very mixed up heard the word, not by going to church.
Only as a result of God restoring our relationship by me being like Jesus (please note I'm not boast here)
Muslim lady now a Christian.

I just don't get why God would cost choose me, my mum and not my brothers.
Yes he is sovereign.

But it breaks my heart they at the moment are not saved yet I am.
They are both so broken and hurt, they can't see the woods from the trees.
Just like I was.

I can't give up on them and won't.
Yet funnily enough I did that with my mum.
Now she is a believer.

Why did God choose me and not my brothers?

Actually, it is not possible from your perspective to make a statement like: "God chose me and not my brothers". That statement actually sets you up as "God" by saying you know what God knows. Even until your death you cannot make that statement because your brothers may come to faith in Christ even after your death. So, of course, God does in His sovereignty know whether your brothers will be saved or not. Nothing they might choose will change God's sovereign knowledge. Some here on CC define those whom God knows will be saved as His "elect".

Whatever terminology or belief a person may hold about God's sovereignty and his election, I maintain that you should still pray for, witness to, and plead with your brothers to make the choice to believe in Jesus Christ for salvation.

 

[Chester]

1) Anything you post is readily dismantled, yet you carry on in ignorance as if it never happened.

2) Erasmus? I don't "follow man." That's your accusation and retort when someone speaks of their position. See how lame it is? Maybe grow up and end that?

3) You've got to get beyond what Scripture says to what it means. You don't (and I say this constructively) possess much if any critical thinking skills concerning doctrine, Scripture, the Gospel, God &c yet you should.

4) Everything to you is black and white, which is how and why you come to Open Theistic conclusions on texts.

There is more, but that is enough. I say this in concern and as a brother.

Your point # 3 - Maybe some of us here would understand better if you explained what you meant by "get beyond what Scripture says to what it means"?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Your point # 3 - Do you really mean that? Is that what you believe? Maybe some of us here would understand better if you explained what you meant by "get beyond what Scripture says to what it means"?

Scripture in Psalm 17 says David wants to rest in the shadow of God's wings. Yet, He ain't no fowl.

Scripture says that Satan was a seven-headed dragon in Revelation 12. Yet, he ain't no literal dragon, either.

That's what he means.

Not trying to speak for him, but I know his beliefs very well.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Your point # 3 - Maybe some of us here would understand better if you explained what you meant by "get beyond what Scripture says to what it means"?

And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”[Mark 16:17,18]

Now, go and take a gulp of strychnine and handle some timber rattlers, cottonmouths, and copperheads and see how long you remain above ground.