Calvinists: The Just Shall Live BEFORE Having Faith

[Depleted]

You need to realize that you lost the debate when all you have to offer are personal attacks and criticism of my spell checker.

Whereas you win, because you pointed that out?

Strange game you play. lol

 

[John146]

God did not change His mind about you. God changed you by His grace. Yea God transformed you from a child of wrath to a child of God. God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

2 Cor 5 reveals what God does through grace received by faith. Faith comes by hearing the word of God.

Those who hear and reject are condemned. Those who hear and respond are changed, are made alive in Christ.

Those who claim they have never heard are confronted by the revelation that God is in all of creation. This renders all men without excuse. Romans 1:19-23

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I was an object of His wrath. I am no longer an object of His wrath. What I was, I am no more.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Who are the just though? Yeesh!

Do you think anyone is truly just without God doing something to them first?

Here is our justice:
Romans 3:10 [FONT=&quot]as it is written:[/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”[/FONT]
[/FONT]

You are missing Paul's point and mine. I never claimed anyone is righteous and Paul never claims that our faith is an evil act.

 

[John146]

Good observation. But their own hearts condemned them! GOD IS GREATER THAN OUR HEARTS!! They BELIEVED Jonah. They didn't scorn him and say get lost. They cried out to God, AND acted on their belief. It is precisely what we MUST do.

We are all condemned. Some harden their heart to that fact, and do not believe they even need a Savior. Some are convicted in their heart, agree that our condemnation is just, and cry out to God for a Savior. It is us who do that which then can receive
Jesus after hearing the Gospel.


It is God that gives us the Grace to fear in both Nineveh's and our case. That is the drawing He does. Praise Him!

Agreed brother. Nineveh did not hear a gospel message, but a message of destruction. They believed the message. They believed that in forty days, God was going to destroy them. They repented and cried out to God in hopes He would change His mind and spare them. Guess what? That's exactly what God did.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Whereas you win, because you pointed that out?

Strange game you play. lol

I did win here because this thread is not about me being a horrible person and speller. Now if you wish to go somewhere else and start a topic on that, then you can claim to have won that argument and you would probably be correct. So, can we be a bit more intellectually mature and not resort to schoolyard bullying?

 

[Depleted]

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!! So, showing that you're in error, that you bear false witness about others beliefs is a "personal attack?"

I'd dare guess that you're simply someone who has returned to CC and took back right off where you left off -- attacking others, namely the Reformed brothers and sisters. I see this happen all the time. It is always interesting how the new person goes right into doing this soon after they join.

Now, care to own up to your errors like a man so we can have dialog, or are you going to continue to be in repeat cycle ad infinitum?

Let's start off with you don't understand the doctrine of regeneration, but carry on as if you did showing yourself to be in error. Fair enough, or stay in your repeat cycle of error? If you're ready to own up, I'll talk to you, if not, get your last word in.

On the he-has-returned-as-someone-else charge. I considered that. I'm pretty sure he really is new. He's too naive compared to the ones who came and left/got banned. (And to Devot, naive is not name calling. Naive is not-knowing-you-don't-know-yet. If I thought you did know, but chose to disagree anyway, that word is "ignorant." I don't think you're ignorant. You just don't know yet.) The ones who were truly out to attack us just for being Calvinists are either already on this thread blahblahblahing away (John and Neh), or were too conniving to do what Devot is doing, (Megg.) So, nope. I really think he is new-guy. Could be wrong, but if I am, he'll be banned quickly for something else all together. Not for attacking Calvinism.

 

[PennEd]

Agreed brother. Nineveh did not hear a gospel message, but a message of destruction. They believed the message. They believed that in forty days, God was going to destroy them. They repented and cried out to God in hopes He would change His mind and spare them. Guess what? That's exactly what God did.

Yes. And although I don't think it's my ministry, and I think WAAAY too many people think it's theirs, Jude does tell us that some will be saved by fear of judgement. In one sense we all are by the convicting of the Holy Spirit, but I don't think that is what Jude is talking about when doing a Jonah-like pronouncement.

[h=1]Jude 23-25King James Version (KJV)[/h][FONT=&quot]23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.[/FONT]

 

[DevotiontoBible]

It does!

How can you do anything before you live? Do you have any concept what "regeneration" means?

You're asking Frankenstein's monster to do something even before he's alive. You're asking an egg and sperm to have faith. You're asking a dead man to have faith.

They can't!

Thanks for confirming that my original post in this thread is correct.

 

[preacher4truth]

On the he-has-returned-as-someone-else charge. I considered that. I'm pretty sure he really is new. He's too naive compared to the ones who came and left/got banned. (And to Devot, naive is not name calling. Naive is not-knowing-you-don't-know-yet. If I thought you did know, but chose to disagree anyway, that word is "ignorant." I don't think you're ignorant. You just don't know yet.) The ones who were truly out to attack us just for being Calvinists are either already on this thread blahblahblahing away (John and Neh), or were too conniving to do what Devot is doing, (Megg.) So, nope. I really think he is new-guy. Could be wrong, but if I am, he'll be banned quickly for something else all together. Not for attacking Calvinism.

You could very well be correct. It all seems to happen in a repeated pattern of behavior so then I thought out loud about it.

 

[Magenta]

Well Lazarus ALREADY had faith in Christ, so this proves nothing.

Lazarus did not take his grave clothes off. Icono's question makes no sense

 

[Depleted]

Of course God knows all...and I'm probably steering this away from Jonah, but I really would like to hear a Calvinist's perspective on Jeremiah 18 and why God is giving them the condition of if they repent or turn, then He will repent or change his mind.

Two rules in my parent's house growing up:
1. Don't eat cookies before dinner, because you will ruin your appetite.
2. Eat everything put in front of you for dinner.

Do you think my parents were really giving me a choice? Do you think the rules were a lie?

I did ruin my appetite before dinner by eating cookies. I sat there until my dinner was finished.

God gave his word. God kept his word, just like my parents did.

I don't see the problem.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

On the he-has-returned-as-someone-else charge. I considered that. I'm pretty sure he really is new. He's too naive compared to the ones who came and left/got banned. (And to Devot, naive is not name calling. Naive is not-knowing-you-don't-know-yet. If I thought you did know, but chose to disagree anyway, that word is "ignorant." I don't think you're ignorant. You just don't know yet.) The ones who were truly out to attack us just for being Calvinists are either already on this thread blahblahblahing away (John and Neh), or were too conniving to do what Devot is doing, (Megg.) So, nope. I really think he is new-guy. Could be wrong, but if I am, he'll be banned quickly for something else all together. Not for attacking Calvinism.

What I know is that Calvinisms order of salvation has regeneration precede faith making Hab 2:4 read as, "the just shall live BEFORE faith."

 

[Depleted]

Well...we can give him some benefit of the doubt and think that he may have been trying to fit in by using what appears to be the accepted template. You have to admit it's a sort of ugly template and it's much nicer to deeply discuss without it!

Hey, is that Hogans Heroes at the bottom of your post...?? I remember that show. I always wanted to watch cartoons and left the room when dad put that show on! Was it good?

First, I love the template. It's pretty because it's all God.

Second, Hogan's Heroes was cartoons for the slightly older crowd. It was as funny as cartoons, just not animated like cartoons.

 

[Rosemaryx]

The wages of sin is death! Did God lie? Aren't we sinners? Don't even saved people sin?

You are failing to take into account god's mercy and Grace.

The Ninevites heard the message, BELIEVED, repented, and were spared. God knows the end from the beginning and EVERYTHING in between.

The idea that God changes His mind, that He can be surprised, that He can learn something from us is patently absurd!

So, I submit the very premise of the question is flawed. God cannot lie, and He didn't to Jonah.

Ijust have to say...Why do people say from their lips " Did God lie "...NO God does not lie, so why use it in trying to debate or whatever...Not aimed at you Pen, but it just stirred it up in me to write this...xox...We all know God does not lie...xox...

 

[Depleted]

I do like that scenario, but is this not the same concept, of if you shalt confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead you shall be saved.

But Jeremiah 18 is all about the potter and the clay.

 

[Rosemaryx]

Yeah, don't sound hard to me either....If thou confess with thy mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in thine heart that God has raised him from the dead you shall be saved.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word so I think the only thing you can do for lost folk is give them the word of God and then it's between them and God as to IF they will accept it or not.

Hi 1...These IFS are becoming bigger as I read the Word...This tiny little word is becoming huge...IF has a lot to say , it changes things , it is showing me a choice...People have a choice to abide IF...xox...

 

[Depleted]

The wages of sin is death! Did God lie? Aren't we sinners? Don't even saved people sin?

You are failing to take into account god's mercy and Grace.

The Ninevites heard the message, BELIEVED, repented, and were spared. God knows the end from the beginning and EVERYTHING in between.

The idea that God changes His mind, that He can be surprised, that He can learn something from us is patently absurd!

So, I submit the very premise of the question is flawed. God cannot lie, and He didn't to Jonah.

Yup, just like Mom knew I'd have to spend some extra time at the table waiting to get hungry enough to eat dinner after I ate those cookies. She knew me enough to know I'm going for those cookies! lol

 

[Depleted]

I would be willing to read it. I can go look for it. Is it too terribly long to read?

It comes in sections. When you've had enough for now, you can go back to it later. Length wise? Think novella, not War and Peace. lol

 

[Depleted]

We have to do something first to be saved, believe first. We are not saved before we believe.
He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
Acts 16:30*-‬31 NIV
https://bible.com/bible/111/act.16.30-31.NIV

We are dead in sin. What do the dead do first to become alive/regenerated? (Same word.)

 

[PennEd]

Ijust have to say...Why do people say from their lips " Did God lie "...NO God does not lie, so why use it in trying to debate or whatever...Not aimed at you Pen, but it just stirred it up in me to write this...xox...We all know God does not lie...xox...

I think you're right sister, but I'm pretty sure he was just saying that as a rhetorical device to make the case that God changed His Mind. Also an impossibility for Him since He is OUTSIDE of time.

We get in trouble when we try and put God in a box. I'm reminded of this passage:

oshua 5:13-15New King James Version (NKJV)

The Commander of the Army of the Lord

13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, a Man stood opposite him with His sword drawn in His hand. And Joshua went to Him and said to Him, “Are You for us or for our adversaries?”14 So He said, “​NO, but as Commander of the army of the Lord I have now come.”