Can a CHRISTIAN have a DEMON?

Soldier_Of_Christ · Apr 19, 2009

There is no darkness in God, but that does not mean that light and darkness cannot be in the same room. If I turn on flood lights, a room can be filled with light but only if it is completely empty and the light is placed in such a location as to have nothing behind it. Any object creates a shadow and thus light and darkness in the same room. Further if I merely use a flash light I can be surrounded by darkness in the presence of my light. The question is, Can God, who is light, dwell in darkness?

The following passages in context are even more powerful.

And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.
Exodus 19:16

And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.
Exodus 20:21

And ye came near and stood under the mountain; and the mountain burned with fire unto the midst of heaven, with darkness, clouds, and thick darkness. And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice.
Deuteronomy 4:11-12

He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet. And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind. He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies. At the brightness that was before him his thick clouds passed, hail stones and coals of fire.
Psalms 18:9-12

The LORD reigneth; let the earth rejoice; let the multitude of isles be glad thereof. Clouds and darkness are round about him: righteousness and judgment are the habitation of his throne.
Psalms 97:1-2

And it came to pass, when the priests were come out of the holy place, that the cloud filled the house of the LORD, So that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of the LORD. Then spake Solomon, The LORD said that he would dwell in the thick darkness.
1 Kings 8:10-12

See also: Deu 5:22, 2 Sam 22:12, 2 Chr 6:1,

Very clearly God's presence can actually be signified by darkness. In these passages God actually used darkness to hide his glorious light and prevent anyone from seeing his form lest they corrupt themselves by making an image of him. This was for their own good because if they saw God in all his glory it would have killed them. There is no darkness in God but it is clearly possible for darkness to dwell in his presence and completely surround his glorious light.

Soldier_Of_Christ · Apr 19, 2009

Thaddaeus said:

Overlooking the fact that none of the scriptures referenced in the e-Sword86’s thread starter were responded to even though a few of them could have been:

The other element of this question is whether evil spirits can dwell in God’s presence.

Again the following passages are even more powerful in context.

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job 1:6

In context this happens a few times with God having a conversation with satan, the epitome of all that is evil.

And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.
1 Kings 22:19-23 (see also 2 Chr 18 for the same story)

Unless you want to say that this was a holy angel working in these false prophets as a lying spirit then clearly this is an example of evil spirits in the throne room of God, having a conversation with him in much the same fashion and for similar reasons as satan regarding Job. I believe we see both angelic and evil spirits denoted in that that the host of heaven were divided into those on his right and those on his left. This is consistent with satan needing God’s permission to attack Job and Psalms 76:10 which states “Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain.” God allows only as much evil as is necessary to bring about the end result he has ordained in which all things work together for the good of those that love him and are the called according to his purpose.

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Revelation 12:7-10

Without getting into an argument about when the above event takes place, the fact is that either now or at some time past, after satan turned to evil, he was allowed in the throne room 24/7 for the express purpose of bringing accusation against God’s people. It is also reiterated that fallen angels were with him in heaven for they also are cast out at the same time. This is perfectly consistent with Job 1:6, 1 Kings 22:19-23 etc having satan accusing the brethren and both he and his angels seeking permission to carry our certain acts on earth.

That may sound strange to some who have never seen these passages or really thought about their meaning, but in them you can take comfort or fear exceedingly. Nothing can happen to you that God has not ordained for a purpose. As long as you are his child then it is all for your good and like Job your latter end will be much better than your first. If, like Ahab, you are not his child then fear because you are on the wrong end of the gun.

Quench not the Spirit.
1 Thessalonians 5:19

This verse is important because it reveals a power we have as well. It’s possible that e-Sword86 is correct in saying the passage about binding the strong man is referring to God binding and casting out devils. I’ve never heard it from that angle, but it makes sense and I will have to think about it. Assuming the normal interpretation is correct; the above passage clearly states that the Holy Spirit could be quenched by someone giving in to temptation. Thus it would not be the devil binding the Holy Spirit, but the Christian quenching the Spirit and allowing satan access. This is why the following scriptures are so serious.

Neither give place to the devil.
Ephesians 4:27

Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.
2 Corinthians 2:11

In summary there are two times in which scripture states that evil spirits can exist in the presence of the Holy Spirit.

The first is when God allows it just as he allows satan and his angels in his presence until the war in Revelations 12 after which they are not allowed back in the throne room.

The second is when the believer quenches the Holy Spirit and gives place to the devil.

The above scriptures coupled with those which were first posted by e-Sword86 should make it clear that Christians can and often do need deliverance from devils. May the Lord grant us wisdom as we read and discuss his holy word.

e-Sword86 · Apr 20, 2009

Mango_Nugget said:

After you read these verses, explain through Scripture how the devil, darkness and demons cannot dwell in the presence of God or His people.

1Jhon 2:11 But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

Rev 2:13 "I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan's throne is. And you hold fast to My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days in which Antipas was My faithful martyr, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.

James 3:13-16 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom. But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there.

Eph 4:26 "BE ANGRY, AND DO NOT SIN": do not let the sun go down on your wrath, nor give place to the devil.

2Co 10:4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,

Mark 6:12,13 So they went out and preached that people should repent. And they cast out many demons, and anointed with oil many who were sick, and healed them.

Mark 8:33 But when He had turned around and looked at His disciples, He rebuked Peter, saying, "Get behind Me, Satan! For you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men."

Luke 9:54,55 And when His disciples James and John saw this, they said, "Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, just as Elijah did?" But He turned and rebuked them, and said, "You do not know what manner of spirit you are of.

Luke 13:11,12 And behold, there was a woman who had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bent over and could in no way raise herself up. But when Jesus saw her, He called her to Him and said to her, "Woman, you are loosed from your infirmity."

Luke 13:16 So ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has bound—think of it—for eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath?"

MahogonySnail · Apr 20, 2009

I think the story of Job where satan actually comes before God shows that satan can indeed dwell in God's presence. That's not to say satan would probably enjoy it.

In my own experience I've known demons to attack in the midst of strong and powerful worship. So no, they don't stay away just because of God's presence they can get fairly close. They really only run away after you command them to go.

MahogonySnail · Apr 20, 2009

Wheat and tares grow together in the church so angels and demons can be in the same place together too.

e-Sword86 · Apr 20, 2009

MahogonySnail said:

Amen. And some "members" are sent to bring about division and discord within the church.

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves.

e-Sword86 · Apr 20, 2009

Soldier_Of_Christ said:

Amen. According to the Scriptures, trials, temptations and spiritual warfare are and should be considered a normal part of the Christian life. I believe it is what the believer does in the midst of this that God is looking for; Obedience to His Word.

James 1:12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

James 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.

Luke 22:31 And the Lord said, "Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren."

Mat 4:8 Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he said to Him, "All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me." Then Jesus said to him, "Away with you, Satan! For it is written, 'YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND HIM ONLY YOU SHALL SERVE.' "Then the devil left Him, and behold, angels came and ministered to Him.

In the end the purpose would be for us to obey His Word and become more like Jesus.

Baruch · Apr 22, 2009

1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

Scriptures does indeed support that there will be a falling away from the faith whereas wayward believers will give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. If one considers how Jesus warned believers of not suffering their houses to be broken up (Matthew 24:43) or broken through (Luke 12:39) by a thief, one can describe a thief that comes and goes. Believers suffer the thief to come in, he breaks through, vandalize the house in taking away the good things in the house like "self-control" which is temperance; a fruit of the Spirit, to any other damage suffered for the moment.

So let us consider that believers can be led astray even in signs and wonders that may even fool the very elect.

Mark 13:2221And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

So what is the difference when believers points to the movement of the "Holy Spirit" in a church,or in Pensacola, Florida or in Toronto, Canada? How is it that many shall be deceived from the faith in giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils in the latter days other than not realizing the hypocrisey of these movements in regards to our faith in Jesus Christ by calling for the Holy Spirit to come when He is in us as promised for coming to and believing in Jesus Christ?

2 Corinthians 13:5Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

So like... when believers are calling for the Holy Spirit... they are...

#1. Being hypocritical when He is in us to dwell and to abide in us forever as promised for coming to Jesus and believing in Him
#2. Preaching another spirit to receive even though they are calling them the "Holy Spirit"
#3. Suffering a thief to break through by opening themselves up to receive another spirit, thinking it to be the Holy Spirit
#4. Breaking the commandment of Jesus' invitation in how we are to approach God the Father through worship and in relationship through the Son

John 14:6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

1 Timothy 2:5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

The man Christ Jesus is the Way to the Father... not through the Holy Spirit for He dwells in us as promised for coming to and believing in Jesus Christ. Why is this important? Consider the specificity of His words.... where is the mentioning of the Holy Spirit to "also" be the "go to" Person of the Trinity? Why mention the Son being the ONLY Way and Mediator? To avoid false spirits as well as false prophets.

If one considers the rudiment of the world in how they open themselves up to receive other spirits, then we can see why the Holy Spirit can only come at salvation through and by Jesus Christ the Lord.... thus maintaining why the Gospel has to be simple so that even children can come to Him, but as it is, there are an awful lot of doube-talk out there of believers saying that all we need is Jesus and that the Holy Spirit is in us, and yet.." oh wait.. there is another invitation ... and it is towards the Holy Spirit... there is another door for believers to enter to get more life" which in reality, doesn't do anything but take their eyes off of Jesus and their rest away from them to get on a rollercoaster ride of emotional highs and lows in signs and wonders.

John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

7Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

8All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

So in this respect, yes.. a believer can be demonized by suffering a thief to break through when departing from the faith and giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils.

The cure? Narrow the way back to the straight gate before He appears. No harm in that, is there? Unless they love the spotlight of the signs and wonders more than Jesus Christ that they wind up putting the focus on them rather than what God would manifest to put the focus on Jesus.

Luke 13:24Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Matthew 7:13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

So for all those believers out there in signs and wonder land... if you love Jesus... put them away and go there no more. Narrow your focus back to Jesus and return to your first love. He is the Bridegroom. Look for Him for He shall be appearing soon. The Holy Spirit in you is pointing you to watch for Him... so why be distracted with anything else? Relate to God the Father through the Bridegroom, otherwise, by climbing up another way, you will become a worker of iniquity by which He will not know you because you did not go straight to Him.. the gate.. the door... the Way to God the Father.

MahogonySnail · Apr 22, 2009

That's an interesting concept about the Holy Spirit being another spirit.

goth4god · Apr 22, 2009

call me lame but im not going to read the posts before this cuz there are a lot and i dont feel like reading them all.
I am just going to share a story I heard about when i was helping out at a memorial fund raiser.
This is the story I heard about this guy who i wont name. I never personally knew him. He was a really strong Christian and had drinking problems in the past. He was over his drinking problems and didnt drink at all now. He was a devoted father and loved his wife. Apparently one day his neighbors came over really freaked out because they thought they had a demon in their house. This was one of those nice neighbor hoods where ppl dont joke around. they said they heard a deep growling voice and thats why they went over to his house. They asked him for holy water but he didn't have any. But he offered to go over to their house and pray with them. so him and his wife did just that. they heard growling and screaming and the bathroom door flew open and the handle was spinning round and round. They cast out the demon and His neighbors house was now free of that demon.
well [the next day or few days later i cant remember] his wife came home and he was slobbering drunk. he had relapsed into his old sin. she took her children and left to wait until he sobered up. when she came home he had hung himself. the wife saw no warning signs and non of his friends would even guess that he would do that. apparently he was very happy and content everyone who knows these details of his death agree that the demon from his neighbors house worked with his old habits to get back at him for showing God's glory.
this story gives me the chills and makes me want to cry, but i thought i would share it.

Baruch · Apr 22, 2009

MahogonySnail said:

Actually, it is preaching another spirit to receive and claiming it to be the Holy Spirit when they had already received Him in the first place when they came to Jesus and believed on Him.

Kind of like you being the new pastor of a church... everybody greeted you and acknowledge you as their new pastor. And then just as someone got done announcing you on the stage, that same someone calls for the deacons and elders to go look for you when you are standing right there. That same someone stands there as he and you watch the deacons and elders leave the main assembly area to look for you in other parts of the building. Puzzled, you come up to the announcer and inquire,"Why is everybody looking for me? I am right here." He replies, "I know." but still he looks out again towards the audience to see if you are also out there somewhere. What gets worse is that everybody in the congregation now is looking for you. You are rolling your eyes now at this scenario. Now.. all of a sudden, somebody announces that they have found you out in the streets and as they bring in this stranger, he is knocking believers over, robbing them of their money from their wallets and purses, and then shaking some upside down to get loose change from their pockets before vacating the place. The reaction of the congregation? They were in awe of this service performed by their new pastor. Then you see how your name is right up there alongside Jesus' name. You try to remind them all that you came to testify of the Son so as to glorify the Son and thereby the Father, but they don't listen to you as they ignore why you were sent and began worshipping you also in the worship place.

Doesn't matter if you quote scriptures on how one is to glorify God the Father through the Son: Now you are the head of the church.. now you are the one they shall relate to God through as well.

And yet if the indwelling Holy Spirit seeks to testify of the Son to glorify the Son, then we, that are led by the Spirit of God, will seek to testify of the Son to glorify the Son as well.

All invitations are pointing towards the Son and warnings have been given to avoid false prophets and false spirits by narrowing the Way back to the Son for there are false spirits out there seeking to take our eyes off of Jesus. If His name is above every other name... then the Holy Spirit will not fail as God in glorifying the Son... but believers will if they heed the hype to chase after the "Holy Spirit" when He is already in them as promised for coming to Jesus.

So the Holy Spirit is not being another spirit in that context you had posted... it is calling the other spirit the Holy Spirit when He is already in you. That is what I am referring to in regards to the "other spirit".

People become skeptics right away when a person claim that he is Jesus Christ, but the warning also applies to other spirits claiming to be the Holy Spirit when He is already in us.

In any event, this explains why so many shall depart from the faith in giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils for they sought not after Christ... but another spirit to receive as it is a rudiment found in the world.

Never before does the catch phrase.. keep your eyes on Jesus.. more sound as those that point to the movement of the Spirit as if one can get closer to God by going to a place than they are already when He is in us.

May God cause the increase.

MahogonySnail · Apr 22, 2009

Baruch that's very good points, I think this scripture can backup what you are saying:

Joh 14:17 the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive because it does not see Him nor know Him. But you know Him, for He dwells with you and shall be in you.

In other words, we can know the Spirit because He is the one inside the believer.

Baruch · Apr 22, 2009

MahogonySnail said:

Amen.

Thanks for the added edification by the scriptures.

1 John 4: 1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 4Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Soldier_Of_Christ · Apr 23, 2009

And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Acts 1:4-5

The Apostles all were operating in miracle ministry though always coupled with preaching repentance which is left out of many miracle meetings today or at best often only preached superficially. Why did these Apostles and other believers who were so famaliar with the power of God and people being healed and delivered through the name of Jesus have to wait for something more. They clearly had repented and believed in the Jesus as their Savior. They had even received a measure of the Spirit in John 20:22, yet Jesus himself said to wait for the Holy Spirit after salvation. Jesus himself said that it was something we ask for?

"If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?"
Luke 11:13

If it was automatic at salvation then why would Jesus say we ask for it? Why would Jesus tell the Apostles which had believed and received and were even seasoned veterans of preaching and seeing miracles that they shouldn't even leave town until they received more power?

And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
Luke 24:49

If you want to say that was a unique situation only for the first time the Holy Spirit came then you still have to deal with the fact that God gave them the Holy Ghost in John 20:22 before he ascended and yet still commanded them to wait for this greater power that came with the baptism of the Holy Ghost at Pentecost. In addition you have to deal with nearly if not an entire town hearing and believing the Gospel and being baptized but not receiving the Holy Spirit.

Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed. And there was great joy in that city.
Acts 8:5-8

Philip the Evangelist had signs and wonders. and the city "with one accord" gave heed.

But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Acts 8:12

Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
Acts 8:14-17

If receiving the Holy Spirit was automatic with salvation why did the Apostles see the need to go and pray for these baptized believers who had already gotten saved? It doesn't say they went down to rebuke Philip for his sings and wonders and preached the true Gospel so they would get the salvation that comes with the Holy Spirit. It simply says they heard that the people had gotten saved and went to pray with them to receive this all important gift beccause the Holy Spirit had yet to fall on any of them.

And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Acts 19:1-2

Again if it was automatic with salvation it would have been completely absurd for Paul to even ask such a crazy question.

Jesus is the one that said these signs shall follow them that believe. He didn't warn against all signs and wonders. He warned against lying signs and wonders.

Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2 Thessalonians 2:9

Jesus operated constantly in signs and wonders and instead of warning against any person that also had signs following he said that we would do ever greater works than he was doing.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
John 14:12

Unfortunately it appears that too many of the miracles workers today are in the category of lying signs and wondfers but it is not an excuse to throw the baby out with the bath water. It’s late and time fails me to properly detail this message as I would like but I believe the scriptures are clear. Let God be true and every man a liar.

Piano_hero · Apr 23, 2009

you give demons too much credit. who cares what the greek word for "possession" was, the answer still remains that there is not ONE case of a believer being "possesed" by demons or being freed from demons or whatever technical term you want to use. Not one . ALSO, every case of "demon possesion" exibited something very strange , such as super natural strength or someoen constantly being thrown into lit fires (not even your typicla suicidal person would do this) or certain magical powers were exibited. it was never like "i got a headache, its a demon!" or "today i had a doubt about something, i need to be freed from demons" . the OT didnt have demons , peopel were doing fine without demons back then. we have enough battels just wiht the world and even worse, our selves.

Piano_hero · Apr 23, 2009

MahogonySnail said:

thats because satan in the story of Job isnt the beast or serpent of revelations .Also, neither of these are Lucifer . And the "demons" arent the "fallen aglens that left their abode" since those have been chained in a dark place since they sinned adn shall be locked until judgment . quick evidence that the satan in the story of Job isnt the blaspheming enemy of God from revelations
1. the satan in Job isnt against God as the beast.serpent is (the satan you beleive in is an enemy of God Himself, has a mouth full of blasphemies and is cursed and banished form heaven, hhile the satan in the Job stiry never says or acts in any way against God )
2. Satan in Job has freedom to wonder in heaven as he pleases while "lucifer" is decribed as being cast from heaven (theres no point in being cast from somewhere if you can jsut go back when you want jsut like you did before)

e-Sword86 · Apr 23, 2009

Piano_hero said:

Demons in the Bible are usually mentioned during the ministry of Jesus so your issue is with God, not with me. I've used Scripture to back up all of my posts. You've used your own words. Which is more reliable?

e-Sword86 · Apr 23, 2009

Piano_hero said:

Then explain these two verses:

Isaiah 14:12 "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!

Luke 10:18 And He said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Piano_hero · Apr 23, 2009

e-Sword86 said:

lol, are you inferring that since they both used similar language "fall from sky" its teh same being?

"
4 Then you will mock the king of Babylon with this saying, "How the tyrant has come to an end! How his attacks have come to an end!"
5 The LORD has broken the staff of the wicked, the scepter of rulers.
6 They struck the people with fury, with blows that didn't stop. They ruled nations in anger, persecuting them without restraint.
7 The whole earth rests and is peaceful. It breaks out into shouts of joy.
8 Even the cypresses rejoice over you. The cedars of Lebanon say, "Since you have fallen, no lumberjack has come to attack us."
9 Sheol below wakes up to meet you when you come. It wakes up the ghosts of the dead, all who were leaders on earth. It raises all who were kings of the nations from their thrones.
10 All of them will greet you, "You also have become weak like us! You have become like one of us!"
11 Your pride has been brought down to Sheol along with the music of your harps. Maggots are spread out like a bed under you, and worms cover you.
12 How you have fallen from heaven, you morning star, son of the dawn! How you have been cut down to the ground, you conqueror of nations!
13 You thought, "I'll go up to heaven and set up my throne above God's stars. I'll sit on the mountain far away in the north where the gods assemble.
14 I'll go above the top of the clouds. I'll be like the Most High."
15 But you've been brought down to Sheol, to the deepest part of the pit."
this is about the king of babylon

MahogonySnail · Apr 23, 2009

Although the bible never explicitly states that satan's former name or even any name was Lucifer , those passages in the old testament are generally understood by most Christians to refer to not only Babylon but also to satan and this belief has been in Christianity for hundreds of years..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer#Satan_as_Lucifer
The Jewish Encyclopedia states that the Lucifer myth was transferred to Satan already in the pre-Christian century, citing in support of this view the Life of Adam and Eve and the Slavonic Book of Enoch [18], where Satan-Sataniel (sometimes identified with Samael) is described as having been one of the archangels. Because he contrived "to make his throne higher than the clouds over the earth and resemble 'My power' on high", Satan-Sataniel was hurled down, with his hosts of angels, and since then he has been flying in the air continually above the abyss.[15]
However, it was among Christian writers that the identification of "Lucifer" with Satan had its greatest fortune. Tertullian ("Contra Marrionem," v. 11, 17), Origen ("Ezekiel Opera," iii. 356), and others, identify Lucifer with Satan, who also is represented as being "cast down from heaven" (Revelation 12:7-10; cf. Luke 10:18).[15

The Tyndale Bible Dictionary states that there are many who believe the expression "Lucifer" and the surrounding context in Isaiah 14 refer to Satan: they believe the similarities among Isaiah 14:12, Luke 10:18, and Revelation 12:7-10 warrant this conclusion. But it points out that the context of the Isaiah passage is about the accomplished defeat of the king of Babylon, while the New Testament passages speak of Satan.[14]

Can a CHRISTIAN have a DEMON?

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