Can the Trinity be Biblically proven?
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The trinity
In conceptual terms we have a problem. First let us define our understanding of God.
1. The Father - the creator, the source of all
2. Jesus - God made flesh
3. The Holy Spirit - Gods presence in communion with the believer
The next question is does any part of the eternal God, represent His whole or part of Him?
We do not know the essense of God, or how he is limited or not limited.
Jesus had to be God, is Jesus's role was to show the Father to mankind, to be the same as
man yet walk in love and sinlessness. If the point was to say I am your friend but on my
terms.
The Holy Spirit is God communing in the heart of people. Again for this communion to be real
it must be God, and man.
So all three expressions need to be distinct, eternal and yet the same, so we get the trinity.
I think of water. It has three states, steam, liquid and ice. No matter the state it is still
water.
Our problem is we all know we are human, yet we are all separate individuals with our own will
and conscience and different. Because of this the idea of God being 3 individuals and yet the
same is not our experience, but it does not deny its possibility.
For me the deeper question is so what? If the purpose is to know love, to walk in love and
have relationship with God, I am happy with what I know. Whether I will ever understand I do
not know. Do I understand energy and what it is or only its effect? It does not stop me living
and using energy.
In conceptual terms we have a problem. First let us define our understanding of God.
1. The Father - the creator, the source of all
2. Jesus - God made flesh
3. The Holy Spirit - Gods presence in communion with the believer
The next question is does any part of the eternal God, represent His whole or part of Him?
We do not know the essense of God, or how he is limited or not limited.
Jesus had to be God, is Jesus's role was to show the Father to mankind, to be the same as
man yet walk in love and sinlessness. If the point was to say I am your friend but on my
terms.
The Holy Spirit is God communing in the heart of people. Again for this communion to be real
it must be God, and man.
So all three expressions need to be distinct, eternal and yet the same, so we get the trinity.
I think of water. It has three states, steam, liquid and ice. No matter the state it is still
water.
Our problem is we all know we are human, yet we are all separate individuals with our own will
and conscience and different. Because of this the idea of God being 3 individuals and yet the
same is not our experience, but it does not deny its possibility.
For me the deeper question is so what? If the purpose is to know love, to walk in love and
have relationship with God, I am happy with what I know. Whether I will ever understand I do
not know. Do I understand energy and what it is or only its effect? It does not stop me living
and using energy.
Here are the following questions?
So quasar, if the Son is not co-equal or co-eternal with His Father then please explain John 5:17,18, "But He/Jesus answered them, My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working." Vs18, For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because he not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling GOD HIS OWN FATHER, MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD."
And regarding you statement, "God makes it clear in the OT He is eternal, that there is no other God but He Himself." Ok fine, then explain Micah 5:2, "But as for you , Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, FROM YOU ONE WILL GO FORTH FOR ME TO BE RULER IN ISRAEL; HIS GOINGS FORTH ARE FROM LONG AGO, FROM THE DAYS OF ETERNITY." Who's goings forth are from the days of eternity in this verse quasar? What if I told you that His goings forth have also been in the OT?
You also quoted Isaiah 43:10, but what about vs11? "I, even I, and the Lord, AND THERE IS NO SAVIOR BESIDES ME." If your going to follow strict rules of interpretation then you should take it to its logical conclusion. God says there is no Savior besides Him but yet Luke 2:11 says, "for today in the city of David there HAS BEEN BORN FOR YOU A SAVIOR, WHO IS CHIRST THE LORD."
You then brought up Isaiah 44:6 where it says, "I am the first and the last, And there is no God besides Me." Who is the first and last at Revelation 1:17,18? "And when I say Him, I fell at His feet as a dead man. And He laid His right hand on me, saying, Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, vs18, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades."
Revelation 1:7,8, "Behold He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. Even so, Amen. Now look at vs8, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." Who is this quasar? Which person was dead and is alive, the first and the last and the one that is coming? Is it Jesus Christ or God the Father?
It's hard to string a bunch of verses together to prove a point but it's a different story to tie them together or reconcile them so they are in harmony with each other. I'm just trying to help and I'm not trying to make you look foolish. Even at your age you should at least be flexable and keep an open mind, in short no one is to old to learn.
"
And btw, these questions are based on many of the verses you posted which as I said, I have read your post. Just take them one at a time. I don't want to overwhelm you.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
So quasar, if the Son is not co-equal or co-eternal with His Father then please explain John 5:17,18, "But He/Jesus answered them, My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working." Vs18, For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because he not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling GOD HIS OWN FATHER, MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD."
And regarding you statement, "God makes it clear in the OT He is eternal, that there is no other God but He Himself." Ok fine, then explain Micah 5:2, "But as for you , Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, FROM YOU ONE WILL GO FORTH FOR ME TO BE RULER IN ISRAEL; HIS GOINGS FORTH ARE FROM LONG AGO, FROM THE DAYS OF ETERNITY." Who's goings forth are from the days of eternity in this verse quasar? What if I told you that His goings forth have also been in the OT?
You also quoted Isaiah 43:10, but what about vs11? "I, even I, and the Lord, AND THERE IS NO SAVIOR BESIDES ME." If your going to follow strict rules of interpretation then you should take it to its logical conclusion. God says there is no Savior besides Him but yet Luke 2:11 says, "for today in the city of David there HAS BEEN BORN FOR YOU A SAVIOR, WHO IS CHIRST THE LORD."
You then brought up Isaiah 44:6 where it says, "I am the first and the last, And there is no God besides Me." Who is the first and last at Revelation 1:17,18? "And when I say Him, I fell at His feet as a dead man. And He laid His right hand on me, saying, Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, vs18, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades."
Revelation 1:7,8, "Behold He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. Even so, Amen. Now look at vs8, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." Who is this quasar? Which person was dead and is alive, the first and the last and the one that is coming? Is it Jesus Christ or God the Father?
It's hard to string a bunch of verses together to prove a point but it's a different story to tie them together or reconcile them so they are in harmony with each other. I'm just trying to help and I'm not trying to make you look foolish. Even at your age you should at least be flexable and keep an open mind, in short no one is to old to learn.
"And btw, these questions are based on many of the verses you posted which as I said, I have read your post. Just take them one at a time. I don't want to overwhelm you.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
R
You pretty much defined God.. HOWEVER God is not 1 of 3 "Persons" he is all 3 ADMINISTRATIONS.. As the Bible describes it.
He could be 1, 000 different ADMINISTRATIONS if he so desired. ONE GOD, ONE LORD, 3 Administrations Spirit and Flesh
At the same time.. Jesus is shown to be "The Express IMAGE OF THE INVISABLE GOD".
People see " Son, as a lessor person" due to the fact he is referrred unto as "The Son". When a person analyzes it, FLESH truly is limited then a pure spirit " The Father"
Jesus had all the power that "The Father" has, except Flesh is weaker then the eternal omnipresent God. Still God Almighty Fleshor Spirit not 2 or 3 Different "Persons"
He could be 1, 000 different ADMINISTRATIONS if he so desired. ONE GOD, ONE LORD, 3 Administrations Spirit and Flesh
At the same time.. Jesus is shown to be "The Express IMAGE OF THE INVISABLE GOD".
People see " Son, as a lessor person" due to the fact he is referrred unto as "The Son". When a person analyzes it, FLESH truly is limited then a pure spirit " The Father"
Jesus had all the power that "The Father" has, except Flesh is weaker then the eternal omnipresent God. Still God Almighty Fleshor Spirit not 2 or 3 Different "Persons"
So rba, what's that mean that God is three adminstrations and show me exactly whee these socalled adminstrations are in the Bible? Are you by chance talking about God being three "modes" or perhaps three functions of the one God? This would be clasic "Modalism" which the oneness pentecostal cult believes? It's like saying "I'm a father, I'm a son to my father and I'm also a husband to my wife. I function in three modes but it's the same me?
Guess what the problem is with that way of thinking and why it is not Biblical, can you please tell me?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Guess what the problem is with that way of thinking and why it is not Biblical, can you please tell me?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
R
So rba, what's that mean that God is three adminstrations and show me exactly whee these socalled adminstrations are in the Bible? Are you by chance talking about God being three "modes" or perhaps three functions of the one God? This would be clasic "Modalism" which the oneness pentecostal cult believes? It's like saying "I'm a father, I'm a son to my father and I'm also a husband to my wife. I function in three modes but it's the same me?
Guess what the problem is with that way of thinking and why it is not Biblical, can you please tell me?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Guess what the problem is with that way of thinking and why it is not Biblical, can you please tell me?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
" And there are differences of ADMINISTRATIONS, BUT THE SAME LORD"
Ephesians 4 verses 4-5: "There is ONE BODY, and ONE SPIRIT, even as you are called in ONE HOPE Of your calling.
ONE LORD, ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM
AND THESE ADMINISTRATIONS ARE NAMED JESUS..
Why do you keep up your arguing when you are doing so from a completely empty wagon, bluto. My post #223 refutes the Trinity. When you provide Scriptural evidence proving any of it is false, you have something to argue about. Nothing you post has any effect whatever until you do.
Review the following: The Origin of the Trinity: From Paganism to Constantine
Quasar92
Last edited:
Critique Of Augustine's Trinitarian Theology
Augustine and His Trinity: Modalistic Monarchianism and Tritheism
Unwittingly Embracing Two Contradictory Propositions Without Apology or Explanation
Introducing the Indictment
By: Dan Mages
Introducing the Indictment
The problem seems clear enough. The orthodox speak of three different entities, three separate beings, Augustine uses the word persons, to describe the three. Yet does not the language he uses communicate three gods just as clearly as if he would have said, Zeus spoke from heaven, Hercules died and rose again, and Hermes came in the form of a dove?
When these names of Greek mythology figures are substituted for Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, it becomes all the more clear that Augustine is thinking of three gods, but refuses to admit it because this would directly contradict Scripture’s monotheistic affirmation as found in the Shema.
In fact, this is his frank acknowledgment,
…why do we not also say three Gods?…Is it because Scripture does not say three Gods? But neither do we find that Scripture anywhere mentions three persons…it was lawful through the mere necessity of speaking and reasoning to say three persons, not because Scripture says it, but because Scripture does not contradict it: whereas, if we were to say three Gods, Scripture would contradict it, which says, ‘Hear, O Israel; the Lord thy God is one God?’
It is supremely unfortunate that Augustine felt the need to escape the logical implications of his own viewpoint and embrace a word just so that he could say something instead of nothing. Augustine candidly admits:
Yet, when the question is asked, What three? human language labors altogether under great poverty of speech. The answer, however, is given, three ‘persons,’ not that it might be [completely] spoken, but that it might not be left [wholly] unspoken.
At this point, I would think that as a scholar and a linguist, Augustine would have just acknowledged that he found three God’s in Scripture instead of playing word games and language tricks. His inexplicable proposition that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, yet there are not three Gods, unmistakably defies the laws of logic. There are plainly three Gods if this is the case, regardless if Augustine claims the contrary.
Millard Erickson quotes Christian logician Steven Davis who summarizes the serious difficulty:
1. The Father is God.
2. The Son is God.
3. The Holy Spirit is God.
4. The Father is not the Son and the Son is not the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit
is not the Father.
5. There is one and only one God.
The problem is that these statements seem to constitute an inconsistent set, that is, a set of statements not all of whose members can be true. This can be shown easily,
Since, 1,2,3 and 5 entail:
6. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one thing.
And 4 entails:
7.The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are separate things.
Since 6 and 7 are obviously inconsistent, 1-5 must be an inconsistent set of statements, in which case they cannot rationally be believed. If Christians are required to affirm both 6 and 7, as it seems they must, it then appears to be the case that they are obliged to contradict themselves…The truth of one premise, namely, ‘God is one,’ seems to imply the falsity of the other, namely, ‘God is three.’ How to resolve this tension has been the logical problem of the Trinity.’10
Phillip Carey notes, the doctrine literally does not add up. Nicene doctrine names three distinct individual beings as God and then says they don’t add up to three Gods. Hence Nicene theologians must say God is beyond counting, beyond number – and thus beyond rational understanding. This was, however, a very common thing to say about God in the Platonist philosophical tradition.11
Driven into an inexplicable linguistic safe haven, Augustine seems to stretch the rules of language12 in order to not concede to his theological contemporaries, whom he seems to demonize by calling them heretics. “What therefore remains, except that we confess that these terms sprang from the necessity of speaking, when copious reasoning was required.
[EDIT by Quasar] The above is only a small portion of this article that describes how Augustine developed the Trinity. Though lengthy, it serves to clearly reveal why the Trinity can never be proven by the Scriptures and is a recommended source for everyone to read, for a better understanding of how it came about, at the following:
http://hungertruth.com/uploads/Augus...ty_Revised.pdf
HOWEVER, THE SCRIPTURES DO REVEAL THE TRUE DESCRIPTION OF WHO AND WHAT GOD IS THAT CONTRADICT THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY!
God is Spirit: Jn.1:18; Rom.1:20; 2 Cor.3:17-18; Col.1:15; 1 Tim.1:17; 1 Tim.6:16 Heb.11.27 and 1 Jn.4:12.
God is Holy: Lev.11:44-45; Lev.19:2; Isa.43:3; Jos.24:19; 1 Sam.2:2; Job 6:10; Ps.99:3 and 1 Pet.1:15-16.
According to the above, there is no option to the Scriptural fact God is the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is also the Father of Jesus according to Mt.1:20 and Lk.1:35.
The origin of the pre-incarnate spirit of the person who later became Jesus, the only begotten Son of God, was brought forth by the Father [Who is the Holy Spirit according to the Scriptures] in Pr.8:22-36, before the world began, the firstborn over all creation, according to Col.1:15. Fulfilling Ps.2:7 and Acts 13:33. Therefore, as the above Scriptures prove, there is no option to the fact the Holy Spirit is the Father of Jesus!
Trinitarians declare God, whom the Scriptures reveal to be the Holy Spirit and the Father, to be two separate persons. Yet Insist Jesus and the Son are one person ! Since God is the Holy Spirit and Father [His title], are one and the same person, trinitarians insist are two, why don't trinitarians declare Jesus and the Son [His title] in the same way, as a fourth person of their formula, instead of three and have a Quad instead of a Tri Godhead? There is no way for any logical explanation of trinitatianism.
Quasar02
Augustine and His Trinity: Modalistic Monarchianism and Tritheism
Unwittingly Embracing Two Contradictory Propositions Without Apology or Explanation
Introducing the Indictment
By: Dan Mages
Introducing the Indictment
The problem seems clear enough. The orthodox speak of three different entities, three separate beings, Augustine uses the word persons, to describe the three. Yet does not the language he uses communicate three gods just as clearly as if he would have said, Zeus spoke from heaven, Hercules died and rose again, and Hermes came in the form of a dove?
When these names of Greek mythology figures are substituted for Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, it becomes all the more clear that Augustine is thinking of three gods, but refuses to admit it because this would directly contradict Scripture’s monotheistic affirmation as found in the Shema.
In fact, this is his frank acknowledgment,
…why do we not also say three Gods?…Is it because Scripture does not say three Gods? But neither do we find that Scripture anywhere mentions three persons…it was lawful through the mere necessity of speaking and reasoning to say three persons, not because Scripture says it, but because Scripture does not contradict it: whereas, if we were to say three Gods, Scripture would contradict it, which says, ‘Hear, O Israel; the Lord thy God is one God?’
It is supremely unfortunate that Augustine felt the need to escape the logical implications of his own viewpoint and embrace a word just so that he could say something instead of nothing. Augustine candidly admits:
Yet, when the question is asked, What three? human language labors altogether under great poverty of speech. The answer, however, is given, three ‘persons,’ not that it might be [completely] spoken, but that it might not be left [wholly] unspoken.
At this point, I would think that as a scholar and a linguist, Augustine would have just acknowledged that he found three God’s in Scripture instead of playing word games and language tricks. His inexplicable proposition that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, yet there are not three Gods, unmistakably defies the laws of logic. There are plainly three Gods if this is the case, regardless if Augustine claims the contrary.
Millard Erickson quotes Christian logician Steven Davis who summarizes the serious difficulty:
1. The Father is God.
2. The Son is God.
3. The Holy Spirit is God.
4. The Father is not the Son and the Son is not the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit
is not the Father.
5. There is one and only one God.
The problem is that these statements seem to constitute an inconsistent set, that is, a set of statements not all of whose members can be true. This can be shown easily,
Since, 1,2,3 and 5 entail:
6. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one thing.
And 4 entails:
7.The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are separate things.
Since 6 and 7 are obviously inconsistent, 1-5 must be an inconsistent set of statements, in which case they cannot rationally be believed. If Christians are required to affirm both 6 and 7, as it seems they must, it then appears to be the case that they are obliged to contradict themselves…The truth of one premise, namely, ‘God is one,’ seems to imply the falsity of the other, namely, ‘God is three.’ How to resolve this tension has been the logical problem of the Trinity.’10
Phillip Carey notes, the doctrine literally does not add up. Nicene doctrine names three distinct individual beings as God and then says they don’t add up to three Gods. Hence Nicene theologians must say God is beyond counting, beyond number – and thus beyond rational understanding. This was, however, a very common thing to say about God in the Platonist philosophical tradition.11
Driven into an inexplicable linguistic safe haven, Augustine seems to stretch the rules of language12 in order to not concede to his theological contemporaries, whom he seems to demonize by calling them heretics. “What therefore remains, except that we confess that these terms sprang from the necessity of speaking, when copious reasoning was required.
[EDIT by Quasar] The above is only a small portion of this article that describes how Augustine developed the Trinity. Though lengthy, it serves to clearly reveal why the Trinity can never be proven by the Scriptures and is a recommended source for everyone to read, for a better understanding of how it came about, at the following:
http://hungertruth.com/uploads/Augus...ty_Revised.pdf
HOWEVER, THE SCRIPTURES DO REVEAL THE TRUE DESCRIPTION OF WHO AND WHAT GOD IS THAT CONTRADICT THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY!
God is Spirit: Jn.1:18; Rom.1:20; 2 Cor.3:17-18; Col.1:15; 1 Tim.1:17; 1 Tim.6:16 Heb.11.27 and 1 Jn.4:12.
God is Holy: Lev.11:44-45; Lev.19:2; Isa.43:3; Jos.24:19; 1 Sam.2:2; Job 6:10; Ps.99:3 and 1 Pet.1:15-16.
According to the above, there is no option to the Scriptural fact God is the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is also the Father of Jesus according to Mt.1:20 and Lk.1:35.
The origin of the pre-incarnate spirit of the person who later became Jesus, the only begotten Son of God, was brought forth by the Father [Who is the Holy Spirit according to the Scriptures] in Pr.8:22-36, before the world began, the firstborn over all creation, according to Col.1:15. Fulfilling Ps.2:7 and Acts 13:33. Therefore, as the above Scriptures prove, there is no option to the fact the Holy Spirit is the Father of Jesus!
Trinitarians declare God, whom the Scriptures reveal to be the Holy Spirit and the Father, to be two separate persons. Yet Insist Jesus and the Son are one person ! Since God is the Holy Spirit and Father [His title], are one and the same person, trinitarians insist are two, why don't trinitarians declare Jesus and the Son [His title] in the same way, as a fourth person of their formula, instead of three and have a Quad instead of a Tri Godhead? There is no way for any logical explanation of trinitatianism.
Quasar02
1 Jn.5:7 does not appear in the earliest reliable Greek mss, and is an additive. It doesn't appear until in the 12th century Latin penciled in side notations. In the first place, the Bible reveals the God is the Holy Spirit and Father of Jesus, Which Shows the Holy Spirit's title, is Father, one person, not two.
Quasar92
The problem is in the additions and alterations man has made to the original Scriptures, and to have the gift from the Holy Spirit to determine which is and which is not. What makes it fail as genuine original Scripture, is the fact that God, is the Holy Spirit AND Father, ONE PERSON not two, according to the Scriptures. Mt.28:19 is another place where the original Scriptures were added onto by unscrupulous scribes.
Quasar92
