Can you be Christian at birth or do you have to be born again?

MaggieMye · Oct 31, 2011

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Post 4 is correct.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Incorrect, we have records dating to around 110-140AD that tells us of men and women in their 60s and 70s who were baptized as infants. Meaning that the practice is directly from the time of the apostles. Just because people DID it then does not make it BIBLICAL. None of the apostles in Scripture even made mention of baptizing babies. Records prove that some people did it, but it does not prove it is Scripturally supported, which it is not.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Originally Posted by Naphal [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The Apostles would not have supported the concept. It wouldn't matter if infant baptism pre-dated Christ...how old error is does not affect it's error.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Dsherck: Why should I trust your interpretation over the testimony of the earliest Christians? Seriously? Do you read ANYWHERE in the Bible in which a BABY made a decision for Christ and then purposed...PURPOSED to get baptized??? No, you do not. The early Christians themselves testify that it was the Apostles who taught the practice of infant baptism. That is a lie from the pit. They did not or it would have been in scripture. And indeed, there's considerable Scriptural support for the practice which I posted above. None of the verses you list support this heretical concept.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]So again, what makes your interpretation more valid than the early Christians?See Above, PLUS[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Deuteronomy 4:2 "You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Proverbs 30:6 "Do not add to His words Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Acts 2:41 "So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls." "those who had received his word" and "those ...were baptized" Babies CAN NOT recieve instruction upon which to act. It is impossible.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 22:18 "I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book;"[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Keep in mind some are recorded to have been taught directly by an apostle,Really? Where? Where are the verses that support this claim? or they were the students of someone taught by an apostle. Irrelevant. Being the student of someone taught by an apostle means nothing. That's like saying you are related to a John Doe because you were taught by a student of his. It does not wash and leaves a LOT of room for error. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Truly Naphal, be Berean at all times![/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Filled with the Spirit is something that GOD DID TO John, for John and In John for HIS purposes. But God did not baptize John. Baptism is an ACT OF OBEDIENCE.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Post 15, Slepsog4, right on![/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Cobus: Naphal i saw MANY children belonging to the Kingdom of God, and they were not baptized, Right. Baptism is NOT a salvation issue. and I saw MANY if not all, baptized grown ups NOT showing Kingdom works..... now what? Right again. Most likely they all had water pour or sprinkled on them when they were babies and they never did make a DECISION for Christ. So, with the understanding that baptism DOES NOT SAVE, why would you expect adults that had never made a decision for Christ to be doing Kingdom works, when they were not even IN the Kingdom?? It only proofs that the water baptism is not the key! So why argue over a key that cannot unlock the Kingdom? The only baptism I believe in is the one in Eph 4. Looks like that baptism is the KEY! Nothing wrong with water baptism, but the EVERYTHING right with GOD'S baptism.... When God baptize you with HIMSELF Jesus Christ did not baptize Himself. John Baptized Jesus.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]... that is to whomever HE WANTS too. Child or 80 year-old people! MAy God baptize us my friend, Amen! Friend, what you do not understand is that God will NOT baptize anyone! The Body is called to baptize EACH OTHER, upon WILLINGNESS BE BE BAPTIZED AFTER coming to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior....not before!!![/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The word 'baptism' comes from the Greek "bapto' meaning "dipped". Not "dRipped upon"[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Matthew 3:13-15 The Baptism of Jesus: " 13 Then Jesus arrived from Galilee at the Jordan coming to John, to be baptized by him (John). 14 But John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I have need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?” 15 But Jesus answering said to him, “Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he *permitted Him. John, NOT GOD, baptized Jesus.[/FONT]

MaggieMye · Oct 31, 2011

Cobus: I believe EVERY child of God is "touched" by Jesus! And after the touch they are in the Kingdom.... Well who fed you that poisonous, destined-for-hell LIE??? Where do you read that in the Bible?? You do NOT. Do you reckon there was a differance betwen the children He touched and the once he did not? What will the differance be if any? Touched? You mean physically? Jesus physically touched MANY people that never accepted Him as Lord and Savior. Touching means nothing. SCRIPTURE SAYS: John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

:4 “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 It says nothing in the whole Bible about being 'touched' by Jesus. He touched Judas...Judas gave Him a kiss and yet Judas will spend eternity in hell. His physical body was touched by those that crucified Him and yet most of them will also be in hell. Try setting aside your traditional doctrine and simply read God's Word.... lest you perish!! Hos 4:6

Duewell: by the words of Jesus, for the kingdom of God belongs to children. No, it belongs to those with the openness and innocence of children.clearly i was supposed to be re baptized. Clearly you were! Because it MUST be a person's choice to do so! And even it if was with the 'dogs', if it was done with the UNDERSTANDING that you were symbolically DYING WITH CHRIST AND RISING WITH CHRIST, then it was all good!

Mark 10:14
But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and said to them, “Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
Mark 10:13-15 (in Context) Mark 10 (Whole Chapter)
Luke 18:16
But Jesus called for them, saying, “Permit the children to come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.

if anyone walks into a church and ask for baptism and communion, they should receive it. Not necessarily. For an unsaved person to receive communion would violate scripture. You do not find ANYONE partaking of the Lord's supper without FIRST BEING SAVED. not in a few months or after they take a few classes. Only after they have recieved Christ as Lord and Savior. Presumptuously taking communion when one is not saved can open up the whole can of worms which entails bringing a curse upon oneself because of the disrespect given to the Lord and His supper/body. all they need to do is walk into the church and ask for it.No. They MUST be proven as followers of Christ first. one of the main functions of a church is as a gathering place for baptism and communion. Then it falls short of what its REAL purpose is for, which is FELLOWSHIP. no one should have their request refused. Wrong. Any person that will not or cannot say that they have asked Jesus to be Lord and Savior of their life should NOT be given communion!
COBUS: "REPENT AND BE BATIZED.... That order. Repent.... REPENT FROM ALL SIN.... and be BAPTIZED...." Right, and babies cannot repent. So there you go!

Cobus: I got to do some work now, but what baptism is Peter referring to when he says this.... REPENT AND BE BAPTIZED.... and YE shall receive the HOLY GHOST!.... in what percentage do we receive the Holy Ghost at baptism?... 0% or 100% there is no in-between! LOOK AT WHAT IT SAYS!!! "Acts 19:2 "He said to them, “ Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” The "when" shows clearly that there was A TIME in which they believed and AND ANOTHER TIME in which they COULD receive the Holy Spirit' baptism. The two CAN be done at the SAME TIME or they can be done at DIFFERENT TIMES. (just look at these verses to see that there is baptism in WATER for the repentance of sins and baptism of the Holy Spirit for empowerment to do ministry: BibleGateway.com - Keyword Search: baptize holy

Rosewater: "Maybe not a prophet, but the typical or average child or infant would be part of a household.

That is an ASSUMPTION which scripture does not support.

dscherck: "I've shown several verses to support infant baptism. You've shown NONE,

One cannot be born 'Christian" Post 57, Brighthouse, you are right on! We ALL are born into SIN.

cronjecj "i believe God's power is revealed through sickness too like when the disciples asked Jesus why is that man born blind, is it because his parents sinned? But Jesus answered: No but that the glory of God might be revealed through him."

BLINDNESS is NOT SICKNESS. Proverbs 26:2 tells us that a curse (sickness and disease (blindness is a CONDITION, not a disease) do not come unless there is a CAUSE or REASON for them to come to a person. The man was blind from birth SO that God could show His Power and Glory by giving him NEW EYES. It was a miracle or even a miraculous healing. But it was NOT a healing from any sickness or disease. The Jews understood that sickness and disease came because of SIN: is it because his parents sinned? and Mt 9:2, 9:5 and Luke 5:19-21 and the woman with the flow of blood for 12 years.

Baptism washes away sin.

No, the BLOOD OF JESUS washes away the sins of man. Baptism is a symbolic ACT of obedience. Even if you never get baptized, if you accept Christ and His Cross, you are washed clean. Since you yourself know that we are born sinful, why would you deny children the opportunity to have their sins washed away through the sacrament of baptism? kids who understand that it is a symbolic act of obedience TO GOD and TELLS HIM they are willing to DIE TO SELF and ARISE IN CHRIST, then it is not a problem. But the kids MUST be able to Understand. There can be no intelligent decision without understanding!! Why would you deny them the protection and grace given to us through baptism? Baptism does not protect! The BLOOD and THE NAME OF JESUS protects.
There is no verse in the Bible that even remotely indicates that baptism protects or sheilds or covers or anything else. It is an ACT of OBEDIENCE.
Maggie

Brighthouse · Oct 31, 2011

I am ALL!! FOR!!! Water baptism!! But if one had never received this,could they still become saved?? YES!!!! THEY COULD!! By grace we are saved through what??? amen FAITH!! and that NOT!! of yourself,it is a gift of God lest any man (or woman )should boast!( eph 2:8)Water Baptism is self proclaiming. Someone said hey!!! you misquoted!! it does not say women!! Well here is a shock!! Please read this!!( Gal 3:22-29!! LOOK close at verse 28!!!! WE are ALL!!!!!! ONE!!!!! in Christ Jesus amen!

Brighthouse · Oct 31, 2011

Also please look at Mark 16:16 Believes and has been baptized!! but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned! Baptism is not required to not believe! Faith is required to be saved though! The act of baptism by itself does not save one.

cronjecj · Oct 31, 2011

Brighthouse said:

Water baptism is an outward show of an inward change.

Peace.

Katy-follower · Oct 31, 2011

Great thread!

When we are baptized by the Holy Spirit we are saved. Water baptism does not save us, it comes after being born again. It's an act of obedience, after committing our lives to Christ.

As for Children - once they reach that age of knowing right from wrong, they begin to sin. Before then they are innocent and not understanding of these things.

RachelBibleStudent · Oct 31, 2011

i don't know about all the way from birth...but i don't see why someone couldn't be a christian from very early childhood...like as long as they can remember...

sometimes it almost seems like there is a second class status in some people's eyes for the 'boring' christians who didn't have an amazing conversion experience...

RachelBibleStudent · Oct 31, 2011

Katy-follower said:

children know right from wrong very early on...that is why they try to hide it when they do something wrong...or when they spontaneously confess to doing something they were never caught for...

i really see no evidence for an 'age of accountability' either in scripture or from logic...there is no moment of spiritual or moral awakening where you suddenly become accountable for all your actions from that point on...

Bloodwashed · Oct 31, 2011

Slepsog4 said:

Well I was reading along, wondering if someone was going to point this out! Yes indeed, John was an Old Testament Prophet!--Mark--

dscherck · Nov 1, 2011

eternally-gratefull said:

Because Scripture tells us that baptism saves us. We have the testimony of Scripture and the testimony of the early Christians.

You can't see your own flaws in your belief. The jews thought they did the same to their kids by circumcising them ( A Command by God by the way, just like baptism) Yet pauls tells us clearly we are circumcized not by the hands of man, but the hands of God through baptism (of the HS)

Scripture states only the shedding of blood can wash sin. Not baptism. Our sins are washed by the HS baptizing us into the death and burial of Christ (rom 6) not in water.

Your church is feeding people a false hope. On can only pray God shows them truth, and breaks the fear imposed on them by your church!

Click to expand...

Let's see what Scripture says about baptism.

Matt. 28:19-20 - Jesus commands the apostles to baptize all people "in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit." Many Protestant churches are now teaching that baptism is only a symbolic ritual, and not what actually cleanses us from original sin. This belief contradicts Scripture and the 2,000 year-old teaching of the Church.

Acts 2:38 - Peter commands them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ in order to be actually forgiven of sin, not just to partake of a symbolic ritual.

Matt. 28:19-20; Acts 2:38 - there is nothing in these passages or elsewhere in the Bible about baptism being symbolic. There is also nothing about just accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior in order to be saved.

Mark 16:16 - Jesus said "He who believes AND is baptized will be saved." Jesus says believing is not enough. Baptism is also required. This is because baptism is salvific, not just symbolic. The Greek text also does not mandate any specific order for belief and baptism, so the verse proves nothing about a “believer’s baptism.”

John 3:3,5 - unless we are "born again" of water and Spirit in baptism, we cannot enter into the kingdom of God. The Greek word for the phrase "born again" is "anothen" which literally means “begotten from above.” See, for example, John 3:31 where "anothen" is so used. Baptism brings about salvation, not just a symbolism of our salvation.

Acts 8:12-13; 36; 10:47 - if belief is all one needs to be saved, why is everyone instantly baptized after learning of Jesus?

Acts 16:15; 31-33; 18:8; 19:2,5 - these texts present more examples of people learning of Jesus, and then immediately being baptized. If accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior is all one needs to do to be saved, then why does everyone in the early Church immediately seek baptism?

Acts 9:18 - Paul, even though he was directly chosen by Christ and immediately converted to Christianity, still had to be baptized to be forgiven his sin. This is a powerful text which demonstrates the salvific efficacy of water baptism, even for those who decide to give their lives to Christ.

Acts 22:16 - Ananias tells Paul, "arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins," even though Paul was converted directly by Jesus Christ. This proves that Paul's acceptance of Jesus as personal Lord and Savior was not enough to be forgiven of his sin and saved. The sacrament of baptism is required.

Acts 22:16 - further, Ananias' phrase "wash away" comes from the Greek word "apolouo." "Apolouo" means an actual cleansing which removes sin. It is not a symbolic covering up of sin. Even though Jesus chose Paul directly in a heavenly revelation, Paul had to be baptized to have his sins washed away.

Rom. 6:4 - in baptism, we actually die with Christ so that we, like Him, might be raised to newness of life. This means that, by virtue of our baptism, our sufferings are not in vain. They are joined to Christ and become efficacious for our salvation.

1 Cor. 6:11 - Paul says they were washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, in reference to baptism. The “washing” of baptism gives birth to sanctification and justification, which proves baptism is not just symbolic.

Gal. 3:27 - whoever is baptized in Christ puts on Christ. Putting on Christ is not just symbolic. Christ actually dwells within our soul.

Col. 2:12 - in baptism, we literally die with Christ and are raised with Christ. It is a supernatural reality, not just a symbolic ritual. The Scriptures never refer to baptism as symbolic.

Titus 3:5-7 – “He saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which He poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ, so that we might be justified by His grace and become heirs of eternal life.” This is a powerful text which proves that baptism regenerates our souls and is thus salvific. The “washing of regeneration” “saves us.” Regeneration is never symbolic, and the phrase “saved us” refers to salvation. By baptism, we become justified by His grace (interior change) and heirs of eternal life (filial adoption). Because this refers to baptism, the verse is about the beginning of the life in Christ. No righteous deeds done before baptism could save us. Righteous deeds after baptism are necessary for our salvation.

There is also a definite parallel between John 3:5 and Titus 3:5: (1) John 3:5 – enter the kingdom of God / Titus 3:5 – He saved us. (2) John 3:5 – born of water / Titus 3:5 – washing. (3) John 3:5 – born of the Spirit / Titus 3:5 – renewal in the Spirit.

Heb. 10:22 - in baptism, our hearts are sprinkled clean from an evil conscience (again, dealing with the interior of the person) as our bodies are washed with pure water (the waters of baptism). Baptism regenerates us because it removes original sin, sanctifies our souls, and effects our adoption as sons and daughters in Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 3:21 - Peter expressly writes that “baptism, corresponding to Noah's ark, now saves you; not as a removal of dirt from the body, but for a clear conscience. “ Hence, the verse demonstrates that baptism is salvific (it saves us), and deals with the interior life of the person (purifying the conscience, like Heb. 10:22), and not the external life (removing dirt from the body). Many scholars believe the phrase "not as a removal of dirt from the body" is in reference to the Jewish ceremony of circumcision (but, at a minimum, shows that baptism is not about the exterior, but interior life). Baptism is now the “circumcision” of the new Covenant (Col. 2:11-12), but it, unlike the old circumcision, actually saves us, as Noah and his family were saved by water.

Again, notice the parallel between Heb. 10:22 and 1 Peter 3:21: (1) Heb. 10:22 – draw near to the sanctuary (heaven) / 1 Peter 3:21 – now saves us. (2) Heb. 10:22 – sprinkled clean, washed with pure water / 1 Peter 3:20-21 – saved through water, baptism. (3) Heb. 10:22 – from an evil conscience (interior) / 1 Peter 3:21 – for a clear conscience (interior). Titus 3:6 and 1 Peter 3:21 also specifically say the grace and power of baptism comes “through Jesus Christ” (who transforms our inner nature).

Mark 16:16 - Jesus says that he who believes and is baptized will be saved. However, the Church has always taught that baptism is a normative, not an absolute necessity. There are some exceptions to the rule because God is not bound by His sacraments.

Luke 23:43 - the good thief, although not baptized, shows that there is also a baptism by desire, as Jesus says to him that he will be in paradise. It should also be noted that when Jesus uses the word "paradise," He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew "sheol" meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord's resurrection. Hence, the good thief was destined for heaven because of his desire to be with Jesus.

Matt. 20:22-23; Mark 10:38-39; Luke 12:50 - there is also a baptism by blood. Lord says, "I have a baptism to be baptized with" referring to His death. Hence, the Church has always taught that those martyred for the faith may be saved without water baptism (e.g., the Holy Innocents).

Mark 10:38 - Jesus says "are you able...to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?," referring to His death.

1 John 5:6 - Jesus came by water and blood. He was baptized by both water and blood. Martyrs are baptized by blood.

There's certainly someone out there teaching stuff contrary to Scripture, but it's not my church.

dscherck · Nov 1, 2011

Katy-follower said:

I know you mentioned me in another post, but it's nigh on unreadable.
That said, the idea of yours about water baptism not saving us is pretty contrary to Scripture and what the apostles taught.

DinoDillinger · Nov 1, 2011

I voted yes because John the Baptist was filled with the Spirit in his mother's womb. Prolly not what the poster intended but I just thought I would point that out.

MaggieMye · Nov 1, 2011

Katy-Follwer: "When we are baptized by the Holy Spirit we are saved
Baptism does NOT save. Being Born Again Saves; FAITH saves.
Dscherk: "Because Scripture tells us that baptism saves us. We have the testimony of Scripture and the testimony of the early Christians. Again, baptsim does not save that there is NO scripture that says that it does.

There is also nothing about just accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior in order to be saved.THAT is what being BORN AGAIN IS!

If accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior is all one needs to do to be saved, then why does everyone in the early Church immediately seek baptism? Because to be baptized makes a PUBLIC STATEMENT THAT ONE HAS ACCEPTED CHRIST AS LORD. It is an ACT of obedience and a DECLARATION. Baptism does not save. Batpism does not save. Baptism does NOT save. It is the act of obeying God's command to emulate what Christ did for us in His death and resurrection. We die with Him and are risen with Him. It IS symbolic and at the same time a PUBLIC announcment.

Baptism brings about salvation, not just a symbolism of our salvation.
See above.
Also, baptrism does not wash away sin. His BLOOD washes away our sin. In the OT, it was the BLOOD of animals that atoned for sin; in the NT, it is the BLOOD of Christ.

Revelation 1:5
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

dscherck · Nov 1, 2011

I love how people say constantly that there is no scripture saying that baptism doesn't save, and then ignore the Scriptural evidence I posted showing that it does indeed save us.

dennis580 · Nov 1, 2011

Jesus own words. "You must be born again".

patience7 · Nov 1, 2011

AnandaHya said:

Water baptism does not save us - our belief/faith in Christ is what saves us. A baby from birth cannot believe in Christ because they have not been taught and at that point cannot understand. I believe that a child that cannot reason for him/herself then that child is under the protection of their believing parents until that child can understand what sin (doing wrong) is and can make a deliberate decision for faith.

Katy-follower · Nov 1, 2011

MaggieMye said:

Sorry. That's what I meant, I just used poor choice of words.

When we confess Jesus as our Lord and savior (faith) and repent for our sins, we are then saved.

Christ then sends us the Holy Spirit to live in us.

I meant to say that we are baptized by the Holy Spirit.

Some people think that the word baptism refers solely to water. So when they read that we must be baptized, they assume it means in water, but water baptism does not save us.

We must be born again

Katy-follower · Nov 1, 2011

RachelBibleStudent said:

Man inherited sin from Adam. But...

I don't think God would send a baby to hell. If a child is not able to discern between it's right and left hands then it is not yet old enough to be held accountable for a decision regarding the salvation Jesus has provided... just my thoughts.

Let me know if you find any scriptures on this.

dscherck · Nov 1, 2011

Katy-follower said:

But as parents we are obligated to inoculate them if you will against sin by way of the sacraments God gave us. Baptism being the most obvious. And the parallels with baptism and circumcision really hammer home the point that baptism is ideally done at infancy.

Think about it, Christ is instituting a new covenant just as He did with Abraham in the past. In the past, it was required that in order to join the new covenant, men were circumcised. Initially it was Abraham and his immediate family. Later on, as children were born into the family, they too were joined to the covenant as infants on the 8th day. Moving forward, the first converts to the NEW covenant were joined to it by baptism. Later on, they too would join their infants to the covenant through baptism as well. Paul was very apt to draw this parallel because baptism is not just for the adults, but for entire families, including their children!

We can see even the words of Our Lord echoing to us, “Let the children come to me.” when the apostles initially tried to stop the people from bringing their infants to Him. God's grace isn't dependent on on the age of reason, so why should His sacraments be limited?

And we can see from the teachings of the earliest Christians, that infant baptism was indeed accepted practice. St. Polycarp grew up learning the gospel at the foot of St. John the apostle and talks about how he has been a servant of the Lord his entire life having been baptized as an infant. Around 110-140ad St. Justin Martyr was one of the first apologists to pagan Rome following St. Paul, and he tells of men and women who had been baptized since childhood and are now in their 60s and 70s. Which would certainly put that practice well within the lifetime of the Apostle John who is believed to have gone to glory around 100ad.

We should do everything we can to offer our infant children the graces of God, and baptizing them is one way to do that. The belief that it's not acceptable is a new tradition of men, not of Christ.

eternally-gratefull · Nov 1, 2011

dscherck said:

Jesus said make disciples. And baptise THEM. Thus they are already disciples. You don't baptise someone to make them a disciple, you make them a disciple first. Your church twists the meaning, as do many others. to support you false heresy of baptismal regeneration

Greek does not allow this. Repent gift of the HS is 3rd person plural. Meaning Peter is telling EVERYONE to repent and they will receive the HS. Baptize and remission of sin are second person singular. Meaning he is only speaking to some of the people. Logic dictates that we see that he is talking only to those who have repented and already received the gift of the spirit. and they are baptized BECAUSE they have already received remission of sin.

This is proved when we are told that those who gladly received his word (repented) were baptized. Yet again, Twisting scripture and language so it ffits your belief does not make it gospel truth.

Twisting the meaning of verses to get your belief is not only wronmg, but a dangerous assumption. Niether of those passages say that one is baptized to become a disciple, or one is baptised to recieve remission. John the Baptised even demanded proof one had recieved remision before he would baptise them. Why would we think God is any different?

Take this test. Drink poison, and allow your self to be bitten by a poisonous snake. Then do not seek medical help and see if you live. According to Mark 16. You will survive if you have come to Christ (this will be a sign of those who come to him) The facts are you would not survive if you did this (and even you know it I am sure) Many christians have died because of being bitten and or drinking something they did not know was poisonous to their system. mark 16: 16 on is missing from many ancient manuscripts. it is evident from the impossible fulfillment of these passagas that it was added at a later date. Not to mention. Jesus makes it clear. believe in him and you will recieve eternal life. No mention of baptism period in other passages. so why did mark put this in here if it is no where else.

No mention of baptism in john 3. When nicodemous asked him to explain he still did not put it in. Jesus says whoever believes in him will never die, but has (present tense) eternal life. If baptism was included in being born of water, jesus owuld have said plainly. he who believes in me and is baptised will never parish. He does not. because baptism is not what Jesus meant by water.

That which is born of flesh (water) is flesh, that which is born of spirit (spirit) is spirit. That is the context of the passage, not baptism. Its all quite simple if we take our blinders off and actually read it!

Because it is the first command one hwo comes to him is given. It is not hard to understand why, however it is just wishfull thinking to think this proves water regeneration by baptism. it does not.

read above. does not prove your theory

Again. See above3. This does not prove anything. Circumstancial at best.

Baptism is a verb. A verb must have a subject. Water is found no where in the passage, so water should not and can not be the subject into which one is baptised. The nouns (or subjects) in this passage is the death and burial of Christ. This this is a literal baptism into the death and burial. Which could only done by God. Adding water is adding to scripture. A claim you make against us all the time, yet here we see you do the very thing you slam us for.

Here again you are twisting a passage. And not even looking at it to see if what you are told by MEN is accurate. A simple and clear look at the passage would tell us who it is who washes us. (ALSO NOTE: YOU LEFT PART OF THE PASSAGE EMPTY!
1 cor 6: 11 (complete)
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

It does not say we are justified washed and sanctified by man in baptism, It says we are done so BY GOD THE HS. This is HS Baptism. NOT WATER. GOD DOES THIS. Not any man.

Yet again, we have the verb baptize, and the subject of the verb Christ. No water mentioned. you have to add to scripture to assume water is referenced here. Paul is speaking of literally being placed into Christ (baptism) which can only be done by God,

11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

a few things to note.

1. Circumcision (cleansing) not done by the hands of men, but the hands of God. How? By being baptised in him, where our sins are washed away and forgiven.
2. Baptism not the work of men, but the act of God. who raised him from the dead. How many priests raised Christ from the dead? This would be a prerequisite for them to baptize us into Christ so we could be raised to new life.
3. All the things contrary to the law (penalty of sin is death) was removed, taken care of by Christ on the cross. This is why we are made clean. not because some man gets us wet. another gross misinterpretation of a passage!

Titus 3 5. who does the work? God the HS, or a catholic priest in baptism?

"Of the Holy Spirit" It is the HS who does the work of washing and making us born again. again, one has to add 'water and baptism" to scripture to even assume this is what ids being spoken of here.

everyone is born of water (flesh) only those born of the spirit will be saved or born again. again a major misinterpretation of the word of God.

pure water:

Scripture calls the HS the pure water. Many times in scripture water and cleansing are signified of the HS. There is nothing purer than God. there is nothing purer than the blood of Christ. Out of him came water and blood. How can we relate the waters of baptism done by man to the pure water of the HS and the pure Blood of Christ. who washes away ALL OUR SIN.
'
Revelation 1:5
and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,

a few things to note.

1. Peter says that just like the waters of the flood, in which 8 souls are saved from Gods wrath, Baptism alsi is a like symbol.
2. Peter makes it clear so there can be no confusion (even though people still misinterpret this verse) that water baptism DOES NOT REMOVE FILTH (SIN) FROM THE FLESH ( SOUL)
3. Petet tells ius what baptism is. It symbolises what Christ did for us to remove us from Gods wrath. It is athe answer of a good conscious to Christ. He said do it. we should do it.

Jesus was not refering to his water baptism, he was speaking of his COMPLETE IMMERSION (BAPTISM) into our salvation by the cross.

Again, Jesus was not talking about his water baptism. but his future death. Rom 6 proves that we all are baptised into his death. This is done by God. not man and not in water. Gross misinterpretation of these verses.

Your church misinterprets alot of passages. If you would study and not listen to men, you would see this plainly and clearly. Like many many have.

Can you be Christian at birth or do you have to be born again?

Can you be Christian from Birth?

yes

no

i don't know

does it really matter?

MaggieMye

Guest

MaggieMye

Guest

Brighthouse

Guest

Brighthouse

Guest

Banned [Reason: ongoing "extreme error/heresy" Den

Senior Member

RachelBibleStudent

Guest

RachelBibleStudent

Guest

Bloodwashed

Guest

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres

Senior Member

MaggieMye

Guest

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres

dennis580

Guest

patience7

Guest

Senior Member

Senior Member

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres

eternally-gratefull

Guest