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M
we are saved by faith...not by understanding...One cannot HAVE Faith UNLESS they are able to understand. Faith is BELIEF. One cannot believe unless they comprehend WHAT it is they are to believe IN. Yes, faith comes hearing. But look to the original Greek:
Rom 10:7, the word "Hearing" (189 Strong's) = akoe; from 191: akouo = "to hear, pay attention, understand, obey;" and more.
NOW can you understand...UNDERSTAND that one needs to UNDERSTAND in order to HAVE faith?
Babies do NOT understand. They to NOT 'pay attention' and they certainly are not capable of OBEYING.
Maggie
Rom 10:7, the word "Hearing" (189 Strong's) = akoe; from 191: akouo = "to hear, pay attention, understand, obey;" and more.
NOW can you understand...UNDERSTAND that one needs to UNDERSTAND in order to HAVE faith?
Babies do NOT understand. They to NOT 'pay attention' and they certainly are not capable of OBEYING.
Maggie
E
People should stay away from Strongs. It is an ok greek help. But it is not perfect.
No where is the word "hear" translated, or mean Obey.
ἀκοή, ἡ, Ep. ἀκουή, (ἀκούω
a hearing, the sound heard, Il.
2. the thing heard, hearsay, report, news, tidings, μετὰ πατρὸς ἀκουήν in quest of tidings of his father, Od.; ἀκοῇ ἱστορεῖν, παραλαβεῖν τι to know by hearsay, Hdt.; so, ἐξ ἀκοῆς λέγειν Plat.
II. the sense of hearing, Hdt., etc.
2. the act of hearing, hearing, ἀκοῇ κλύειν, ἀκοαῖς δέχεσθαι, εἰς ἀκοὰς ἔρχεταί τι Soph., Eur.; διʼ ἀκοῆς αἰσθάνεσθαι Plat.
III. the ear, Sappho, Aesch.
Liddell, H. (1996). A lexicon : Abridged from Liddell and Scott's Greek-English lexicon (28). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.
ἀκοή, -ῆς, ἡ, (fr. an assumed pf. form ἤκοα, cf. ἀγορά above [but cf. Epic ἀκουή; Curtius p. 555]);
1. hearing, by which one perceives sounds; sense of hearing: 1 Co. 12:17; 2 Pet. 2:8. Hebraistically, ἀκοῇ ἀκούειν by hearing to hear i. e. to perceive by hearing, Mt. 13:14; Acts 28:26, (Is. 6:9); cf. W. § 44, 8 Rem. 3 p. 339; § 54, 3 p. 466; [B. 183 sq. (159)].
2. the organ of hearing, the ear: Mk. 7:35; Lk. 7:1; 2 Tim. 4:3, 4; Acts 17:20; Heb. 5:11.
3. thing heard;
a. instruction, namely oral; spec. the preaching of the gospel,
Thayer, J. H. (1889). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: Being Grimm's Wilke's Clavis Novi Testamenti (22). New York: Harper & Brothers.
ἀκοή 189
The word is sometimes concrete, denoting “the ear”: so in the late document cited above under ἀκλινής, and in P Oxy I. 1294 (vi/A.D.) εἰς ἀκοὰς ἐμὰς ἦλθεν. Much earlier is Wünsch AF I17 (i/ii A.D.) where ἀκοάς stands between ἐνκέφαλον [πρόσω]πον and ὀφρ[ῦς] μυκτῆρας. Its more normal sense of “hearing” appears in a would-be cultured letter,
Moulton, J. H., & Milligan, G. (1930). The vocabulary of the Greek Testament (18). London: Hodder and Stoughton.
ἀκοή, ῆς f
a hearing: 24.52
b ability to hear: 24.53
c what is heard: 24.57
d news: 33.213
e pay attention to: 31.56
ἀκοή: units
ἀκοῇ ἀκούω
listen carefully 24.63
κνήθομαι τὴν ἀκοήν
desirous of hearing 25.11
ἀνοίγουσιν αἱ ἀκοαί
become able to hear 24.69
εἰσφέρω εἰς τὰς ἀκοάς
a cause to hear: 24.55
b speak about: 33.92
νωθρο͂ς ταῖς ἀκοαῖς
slow to understand 32.47
Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Vol. 2: Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament : Based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition.) (8). New York: United Bible societies.
No where is the word "hear" translated, or mean Obey.
ἀκοή, ἡ, Ep. ἀκουή, (ἀκούω
a hearing, the sound heard, Il.2. the thing heard, hearsay, report, news, tidings, μετὰ πατρὸς ἀκουήν in quest of tidings of his father, Od.; ἀκοῇ ἱστορεῖν, παραλαβεῖν τι to know by hearsay, Hdt.; so, ἐξ ἀκοῆς λέγειν Plat.
II. the sense of hearing, Hdt., etc.
2. the act of hearing, hearing, ἀκοῇ κλύειν, ἀκοαῖς δέχεσθαι, εἰς ἀκοὰς ἔρχεταί τι Soph., Eur.; διʼ ἀκοῆς αἰσθάνεσθαι Plat.
III. the ear, Sappho, Aesch.
Liddell, H. (1996). A lexicon : Abridged from Liddell and Scott's Greek-English lexicon (28). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.
ἀκοή, -ῆς, ἡ, (fr. an assumed pf. form ἤκοα, cf. ἀγορά above [but cf. Epic ἀκουή; Curtius p. 555]);
1. hearing, by which one perceives sounds; sense of hearing: 1 Co. 12:17; 2 Pet. 2:8. Hebraistically, ἀκοῇ ἀκούειν by hearing to hear i. e. to perceive by hearing, Mt. 13:14; Acts 28:26, (Is. 6:9); cf. W. § 44, 8 Rem. 3 p. 339; § 54, 3 p. 466; [B. 183 sq. (159)].
2. the organ of hearing, the ear: Mk. 7:35; Lk. 7:1; 2 Tim. 4:3, 4; Acts 17:20; Heb. 5:11.
3. thing heard;
a. instruction, namely oral; spec. the preaching of the gospel,
Thayer, J. H. (1889). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: Being Grimm's Wilke's Clavis Novi Testamenti (22). New York: Harper & Brothers.
ἀκοή 189
The word is sometimes concrete, denoting “the ear”: so in the late document cited above under ἀκλινής, and in P Oxy I. 1294 (vi/A.D.) εἰς ἀκοὰς ἐμὰς ἦλθεν. Much earlier is Wünsch AF I17 (i/ii A.D.) where ἀκοάς stands between ἐνκέφαλον [πρόσω]πον and ὀφρ[ῦς] μυκτῆρας. Its more normal sense of “hearing” appears in a would-be cultured letter,
Moulton, J. H., & Milligan, G. (1930). The vocabulary of the Greek Testament (18). London: Hodder and Stoughton.
ἀκοή, ῆς f
a hearing: 24.52
b ability to hear: 24.53
c what is heard: 24.57
d news: 33.213
e pay attention to: 31.56
ἀκοή: units
ἀκοῇ ἀκούω
listen carefully 24.63
κνήθομαι τὴν ἀκοήν
desirous of hearing 25.11
ἀνοίγουσιν αἱ ἀκοαί
become able to hear 24.69
εἰσφέρω εἰς τὰς ἀκοάς
a cause to hear: 24.55
b speak about: 33.92
νωθρο͂ς ταῖς ἀκοαῖς
slow to understand 32.47
Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Vol. 2: Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament : Based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition.) (8). New York: United Bible societies.
R
If someone believes that they are saved because they were baptized as an infant then yes they are fooling themselves. An infant cannot confess that Jesus Christ is their savior. We are saved through faith, and faith alone. Baptism is a public confession of our faith and does not save us. The most common verse used to argue that is Mark 16:16, where most believe the reference is to the baptizing of the holy spirit some believe it is referencing water baptism. Either way it's important to note in that verse it is the failure to believe that condemns not the failure of baptism. Also when it comes to baptism, scriptural baptism is immersion in water, not sprinkling or pouring. I'd hate to think there's a church that is submerging infants in water when they don't understand the meaning behind it anyway. God Bless
Sorry I have to smile at this one... but for the sake of the young ones...
Just to understand the term Christian here, we all know it means follower of Jesus Christ.
So let us take a peek at the requirements...
1Jn 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (There is ONE God)
1Jn 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. (There are three destinct events that need to happen)
1Jn 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
1Jn 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
1Jn 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jn 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
1Jn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Jesus was the first example... not that He needed it but for our sakes to show us the example
Mat 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
First off Jesus was born of God and came in the flesh. (Blood)
Second Jesus got baptised by John the Baptist. (Water)
Third Jesus received the Holy Spirit that descended in the form of a DOVE on Him. (Spirit)
And we see when this happened, also per example what did God the Father do...?
Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
God acknowledge Jesus as His Child.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
So do you think that all three of these events can happen as an infant who hasn't made up his mind up about anything yet?
Just to understand the term Christian here, we all know it means follower of Jesus Christ.
So let us take a peek at the requirements...
1Jn 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (There is ONE God)
1Jn 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. (There are three destinct events that need to happen)
1Jn 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
1Jn 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
1Jn 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jn 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
1Jn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Jesus was the first example... not that He needed it but for our sakes to show us the example
Mat 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
First off Jesus was born of God and came in the flesh. (Blood)
Second Jesus got baptised by John the Baptist. (Water)
Third Jesus received the Holy Spirit that descended in the form of a DOVE on Him. (Spirit)
And we see when this happened, also per example what did God the Father do...?
Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
God acknowledge Jesus as His Child.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
So do you think that all three of these events can happen as an infant who hasn't made up his mind up about anything yet?
Yes He draws all men but not all hear thus those who refuse to believe are not the chosen.
The scripture speaks of elect, preordained and predestined before the foundation of the world.
Mark 13:20
And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake,
whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
Mark 13:27
And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds,
from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Matthew 24:22
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved:
but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Romans 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Romans 11:5-7
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
And if by grace, then is it no more of works, otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works,
then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for.
Romans 11:28
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election,
they are beloved for the father's sakes.
but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
Colossaians 3:12
Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness,
humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering.
1 Thessalonians 1:4
Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes,
that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Titus 1:1
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect,
and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness.
1 Peter 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit,
unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people,
that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.
2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure,
for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.
This means that God chose His own from the bunch from the the very beginning.
The scripture speaks of elect, preordained and predestined before the foundation of the world.
Mark 13:20
And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake,
whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
Mark 13:27
And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds,
from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Matthew 24:22
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved:
but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Romans 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Romans 11:5-7
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
And if by grace, then is it no more of works, otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works,
then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for.
Romans 11:28
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election,
they are beloved for the father's sakes.
but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
Colossaians 3:12
Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness,
humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering.
1 Thessalonians 1:4
Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes,
that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Titus 1:1
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect,
and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness.
1 Peter 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit,
unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people,
that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.
2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure,
for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.
This means that God chose His own from the bunch from the the very beginning.
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Romans 9:11-13
For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil,
that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,
It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Jude 4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men,
turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 1:20
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.
Ephesians 1:5
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself,
according to the good pleasure of his will.
Romans 8:29-30
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son,
that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called,
and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Ephesians 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance,
being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.
For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil,
that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,
It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Jude 4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men,
turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 1:20
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.
Ephesians 1:5
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself,
according to the good pleasure of his will.
Romans 8:29-30
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son,
that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called,
and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Ephesians 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance,
being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.
I see what you're saying, but I disagree. We are free will beings. If we have genuine free will, God does not know what we will do before we do it. I believe He is genuinely joyful when someone chooses to believe.
Gen 2:19) And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
Gen 22:12) And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
Gen 2:19) And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
Gen 22:12) And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
Y
You can narrow this to a personal level in Matthew 16;13 thru 17
and many more.
Those who are taken as babies to be christened by the head of the church, is an act of dedicating one's child to God. This is something each parent should have in their heart in God's sight. But as you've said, those who are called by God are to become as a little child (one of His children), who seek their Father even as Jesus spoke to His Father when He said, "Abba Father" which holds to our understanding of Dad. It is a personal relationship developed after the child is no longer under the earthly parents. One is the image of the other. Without creation language, we could not see the things which are hidden. So when I mention creation language, I am saying the things which we can see are the very image of things which we cannot see.
This understanding should not demean the parent's christening (dedication) of the their child to God. It is a significant part of family in God's sight.
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. Romans 9:11-13 (KJV)
Y
It would be helpful if you carefully followed the things which took place as Peter followed Jesus on a path that led to the cross. Even though Peter did according to the things which seemed right to him ( and all the disciples agreed with him), Jesus used the life that Peter lived to show Peter and all disciples up to this present time, that Jesus did indeed know all things even before they took place. It wasn't until Peter saw that Jesus knew all things that he understood the one thing he trusted most about himself could not save Jesus from what He had to do. It was Peter's own life that revealed Jesus had to die for Peter. You have heard some question why Jesus had to die so violent a death......
These who do not understand, are the same as Peter, because he couldn't see it either. It is Satan's hidden work in each of us, as Satan's work was shown in Peter. Satan used the things which seem right to us to attempt to stop what Jesus has to do for each of us. You heard me right, it is Satan's hidden work that tempted us to think that way, even though it is written that Jesus gave His life so that we could be redeemed by His blood. This image was shown in Egypt when the blood of a sheep was used to save every household of God's people. Only then could they be delivered from that land of sin. Creation language is a powerful key that opens understanding of spiritual matters.
These who do not understand, are the same as Peter, because he couldn't see it either. It is Satan's hidden work in each of us, as Satan's work was shown in Peter. Satan used the things which seem right to us to attempt to stop what Jesus has to do for each of us. You heard me right, it is Satan's hidden work that tempted us to think that way, even though it is written that Jesus gave His life so that we could be redeemed by His blood. This image was shown in Egypt when the blood of a sheep was used to save every household of God's people. Only then could they be delivered from that land of sin. Creation language is a powerful key that opens understanding of spiritual matters.