Catholic Heresy (for the record)

mikeuk · Mar 9, 2015

It is a sensitive subject. Similar points were made by me and others on a thread contrasting cradle and converted catholics, which were summarily deleted by that forum! I have to say I found them little help in my journey: to be fair many knew what they believed but could not defend the justification for why they believed it!

The ones who knew what RCC believes, and the biblical historical and traditional justifications tended to be the many pastors and theologians that converted from evangelical and protestant sects who realised they had been fed a bunch of myths about it. Thousands of them, not that evangelicals would get to hear that!. It is interesting to hear their stories because depending on where they came from, the sticking points for them tended to be different.
"journey home" on EWTN is worth listening to, even for those who disagree with RCC to at least get a balanced picture of the contrast in beliefs and the factors in making people switch Those who oppose it rarely know what it stands for.

Take the OP on this thread criticising it for his mother in law thinking "mary Saves" when clearly it does not believe that, nor KenAllans silly claim that Mary is exalted over God or even made equal. Simply not true.

notuptome · Mar 9, 2015

fordman said:

Seems to defy logic. The RCC being one big happy unified body. How is it possible that some are not being taught?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

mikeuk · Mar 9, 2015

notuptome said:

Who said "not taught" - rather than "not listen" people like Ken must have had their ears shut at times. Or bunked off school for that lesson . Whatever.

I have heard many protestants make a complete hash of explaining what their denomination believes as well when I was the other side of the fence for some years, particularly evangelicals who were long on enthusiasm (which is to be applauded) but shallow and shaky on doctrine..

And that started the rot for me, that if you start probing what they believe, you discover it is not well defined, generally "fudged" so that people can unite behind a deliberately vague statement that means different things to different people. Until the day the cracks cannot be papered over any more. And yet another fracture happens to add to the tens of thousands.

So the disunited reformed modified reformed again church , then morphs into the even more disunited reformed modified reformed again twice denomination. How can any of them claim to be the true church really?

RCC does not have that problem. You accept the teaching of magisterium in totality, and if you do not like it the door marked "out" is never locked, because without agreeing you are not a catholic. So seemingly Ken never was one.
If you ever read it you would find what RCC believes. Not that you ever will or have judging by previous remarks..

notuptome · Mar 9, 2015

mikeuk said:

You have had them since birth and still some are not taught? Pretty feeble excuse if you ask me. But I'm just a disgruntled protestant who cannot possibly know anything. Good thing its not what I know but Who I know that is important.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Jeff_56 · Mar 9, 2015

those who learn from the schoolmaster, after out of school,when grace comes, yahweh willing, do well - they do what the schoolmaster taught them and more-so what the Creator Wants, joyously and obediently, pleasing Him with their TRUE FAITH AND SONSHIP crying "ABBA< FATHER>"!

those who rebel against the schoolmaster, they don't even know what the owner of the vineyard wants... and they cannot please him.

WheresEnoch · Mar 10, 2015

Dale1701 said:

God raises up His children from every period of time and from every perversion of truth. Protestantism may be much more "Biblical" than Catholicism, but it is still flawed in it's practices. The structure of priesthood/laity (the practices of the Nicolaitans) is a copy of Catholicism, Judaism and all the pagan religions

mikeuk · Mar 10, 2015

notuptome said:

You think cradle protestants are any better catechised than cradle catholics, when many drop away alltogether to join the new atheism?

Let us disregard the truth of the theology:but considering some of what they are taught it is not surprising they drift away.

Take the nihilism of calvinist double predestination, (AKA why should I bother - since if I believe at all, the dice is already cast, and nothing I do say or think can make any difference?)

Or the Macdonalds fast food version of Christianity "just do this one thing, now, and you will be saved whatever you do from then on", so again why bother: (AKA just go and have fun, because if they are right I am saved already, if they are wrong, religion is bunk, so either way we might as well have fun instead).

The trouble is with get rich quick schemes is they are hyped as easy and quick, but never work. OSAS just one such religious get rich quick scheme.

Even worse are those who say "because works can never be enough for salvation, then why bother with them at all", ( AKA not just not do them, but poke phariseean fingers at those who do them, and all those that think you have to try). So it is easier to live life as a couch potato attacking RCC on forums like this.

So I am not sure protestantism has an enviable record teaching its youth, because their doctrines lead to such nihilist lives!

KenAllan · Mar 10, 2015

Mikeuk, I have read what the Catholic Church says about Mary. Here is what the corrupted Catholic Church teaches about Mary.

1. Mary is a Co-redemptrix.
2. Mary is a Mediatrix.
3. Mary is the Queen of Heaven meaning she rules with God.
4. Immaculate conception meaning she was born without sin.
5. Perpetual Virginity.
6. She was bodily assumed into Heaven.

None of these are in the Scriptures. These Doctrines were made up by the Catholic Church to justify their their Veneration and Worship of Mary!

Now i ask you again Mikeuk, where in the Scriptures does the Holy Spirit say Mary was without sin? I can tell you it is not in the scriptures.

Concerning "once saved always saved". Where in the Scriptures does the Holy Spirit tell us how many "Good Works" we are to do daily to receive Salvation? Is it one a day or is it 1000 a day we are to do to receive Salvation? How many "Good Works" total are we to do in our lifetime to receive Salvation?

What would you do if you did your best every day to do "Good Works" only to die and find out you missed receiving Salvation because you were one "Good Works" shy of what you needed to do to receive Salvation?

The problem with doing "Good Works" to receive Salvation is that what you receive is what is due to you and its not a gift.

Ephesians 2:7-9
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not as a result of works, that no one should boast.

Salvation is a gift! Its a gift from God! Clearly the Holy Spirit says its NOT a result of "Good Works"!

This is why Mikeuk you are not a True Christian. You have not asked for nor received Salvation from God. You think you are better than God because you are Working for your Salvation!

I have also noticed that you never quote what the Holy Spirit says in the Scriptures, but instead quote what the corrupted Catholic Church teaches. Its the Scriptures only that have the Truth. There is no Truth in the Catholic Church because the Catholic Church teaches just the opposite of what the Holy Spirit says.

Mikeuk, you really need to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior so you too can receive Salvation and the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Do not wait too long for time is short and we do not know how much more time we have to live on this World. Which is better, spending Eternity in Heaven with God or spending Eternity in Hell Fire with Satan?

Its your choice to make, God has given you the free will to reject Him. Reject the Catholic Church and turn to God. Reject Mary and turn to God!

fordman · Mar 10, 2015

KenAllan said:

Hey mike, hope you dont mind me jumping in here!

Due to time restrictions kenallen, I'll start with the first two on your list. To try and make it a bit more simpler for ya kenallen, lets use an analogy. Let's say you have a "co-pay" on your health insurance policy, does that mean that you pay an amount identical to the insurer? "Co" simply means "alongside." It does not necessarily mean "equal," and certainly not "equal in essence," as you and most anti-Catholics would have it. So in a nutshell, the Catholic doctrine (which is already well-established in Tradition and is nothing new) is that God chose to involve Mary in a very profound way in the redemption, especially in terms of intercession and as the Theotokos ("Mother of God"). This does not in any way, shape, or form, make her equal to God, or the author and source of either grace or redemption. All grace, all salvation comes from God. The same holds true for the Immaculate Conception, the Assumption, or any other Marian doctrine. Mary is nothing that God did not ultimately make her - just as with all of us.

God uses the Blessed Virgin Mary as a vessel of His grace - albeit extraordinarily, to be sure - just as He might use any one of us for His purposes. After all, He used Balaam's ass (Num 22:22-35), and potentially could have used inanimate rocks (Mt 3:9). God can do whatever He well pleases kenallen. Apart from the issues of whether or not the Mediatrix doctrine is explicitly indicated in Scripture (I think it is implicitly suggested), or whether or not you agree with it, it is certainly conceivable that God could use any of His creatures for any purpose, even up to the point of interceding in every instance of repentance, etc., as we believe Mary is in fact involved.

Now as far as biblical evidence goes, lets look at Mary, Paul, and Spirits as "distributors of Grace."
Co-Redemptrix (rightly understood) is no more shocking or unbelievable than Paul in effect calling himself a "savior" and a "steward" of God's grace: (Eph.3:2) "assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace that was given to me for you." Paul was a self-proclaimed steward of God's grace. A steward guards and distributes his master's belongings with equity and justice to the members of the master's household. Here, Paul claimed to be designated by God to distribute grace to everyone for God by the fact that he preached the Gospel. If Paul can claim to be a steward of God's grace through preaching the Word, then consider Mary, who preached the Word more completely, more effectively, than any Apostle or disciple who ever lived. She preached His Word in complete silence, in a stable. Through the stewardship given to her by the Holy Spirit, the grace of God came into the world for the salvation of men; wrapped in swaddling clothes, laid in a manger.(1Cor.9:22) "I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some." (1Tim.4:16) "Take heed to yourself and to your teaching: hold to that, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers." If Paul could claim to be a saviour, and could instruct Timothy in how to be a saviour, then Mary has a claim at least as strong as either to the same title and honor. Paul and Timothy can only claim to have preached the Word while Mary's submission to God's will actually allows us to meet Him in the flesh.

As for the "Spirits" I mentioned, It should be noted that the "seven spirits who are before his [God's] throne" seem to participate in distributing God's grace as well (Rev 1:4).If Paul, Timothy, and "seven spirits" can be so used and honored, why not Mary, the Mother of God? Mary's secondary (to Christ) and wholly derivative function as the Mediatrix is no more a violation of Jesus' unique mediatorship than any number of functions He sanctions and allows among His Body, the Church. We pray for each other, thus acting as mediators. I could just as easily ask you, "Why ask your fellow Christians to pray for you when you can ask Jesus?" as "Why do you ask for Mary's prayers when you can go directly to Jesus?" Yet God commands us to pray for one another. God is Creator, but he gives us the privilege of procreation, in childbirth and parenthood. Jesus is the "chief" Shepherd of His flock (John 10:11-16, 1 Peter 5:4), yet He assigns lesser shepherds to watch over His own (John 21:15-17, Ephesians 4:11).
Furthermore, the Bible explicitly states that Christians in general are God's "helpers" or "fellow workers" (Greek, synergos): (2Cor.6:1) Working together with him, then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain. ( Mk. 16:20)1Cor.3:9... For we are God's fellow workers . . .

Why then kenallen, is it unthinkable for you and other non-Catholics for Mary to be a "fellow worker" with Jesus (albeit in a much more extraordinary fashion)? No one claims that the above verses teach our equality with God, simply because we work with Him, and are His fellow workers. Likewise, the Blessed Virgin is in no wise equal to God in function when she is a Mediatrix or Co-Redemptrix.

Pax Christi

"From henceforth, all generations shall call me Blessed." ---- Luke 1:48

p.s. I'll respond to the other four on your list at a later time.

mikeuk · Mar 10, 2015

KenAllan said:

Since Fordman answered the first two, I will pick up the next.

You are simply WRONG WRONG WRONG "Queen" does not mean that, and scripture says so!

Jews were obsessive about taking meaning from the OT, and that is what they will have done with this.
Jesus was prophesied a davidic king, and did what he could to align to them eg rode a donkey as Solomon had done.
Too many references to mention!

If you knew your scriptures you would know that "queen" of a davidic kingdom is MOTHER not spouse, not as co ruler but advocate, but honored when the king even bowed to her (clearly stated in references to Solomon and Bathsheba) The king said he would honour any request of hers. Many other mothers are named for the reason of their importance..
So mother of King with powers not as coruler but advocate.

Now look at revelations 12. How do we know the lady in heaven wearing a crown of stars is Mary? easy. Because her son rules over the nation with a "rod of iron" a clear reference back to Psalm 2: God's son! And her offspring are those who "keep the commandments"

So "queen of heaven" is an entirely appropriate HONORARY name for the mother of a king - Jesus - with powers of advocacy to him. We know he listens to what she says the miracle of "cana" proves it, although he complained at her that "his time had not yet come", so presumably meant "wait till after I am risen!

You are using your meaning of the word Queen, not the scriptural one, nor even the one referred by the catechism WHICH YOU SHOULD KNOW IF YOU HAD READ IT WHEN AS A CATHOLIC!!! You did not, and you have been bearing false witness against catholicism ever since.

So what do we do? Ask her to pray for us, not worship her.. We know the powers of saints are potent, they are there in revelations by throne of God.
And she is most favoured amongst the saints. And also has powers of advocacy to Jesus!
Do you ask others to pray for you? I presume you do!

So you have not read your (ex) faith well enough to comment to others on it.

Jackson123 · Mar 10, 2015

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] - God has exalted Mary in heavenly glory as Queen of Heaven and earth. (Catechism 966) She is to be praised with special devotion. (Catechism 971, 2675)
[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Psalm 148:13 says, “Let them praise the name of the Lord: for his name alone is excellent; his glory is above the earth and heaven.”This makes it quite clear that only God’s name (not Mary’s) is to be exalted. (In Catholic Bibles the numbering of the chapters and verses of some of the Psalms is slightly different.)[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]When people tried to give Mary special honor and pre-eminence because she was His mother, Jesus corrected them.
[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]“And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.” (Luke 11:27-28)[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In chapters four and five of the Book of Revelation, we are given a quite detailed picture of Heaven. God is seated on the throne, surrounded by 24 elders and four living creatures. The Lamb (Jesus) is standing in the center of the throne. Thousands upon thousands of angels circle the throne, singing God's praises. And Mary is not in the picture at all.
[/FONT]

[TABLE="align: center"]
[TR="bgcolor: #FFFF99"]
[TD="class: Normal"]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]BIBLICAL MARY[/FONT]

[/TD]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 266"]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]CATHOLIC MARY[/FONT]

[/TD]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 178"]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]THE GODDESS[/FONT]

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 171"][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Humble and obedient. Calls herself “the handmaid of the Lord.”[/FONT]
[/TD]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 266"][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Pope officially gave Mary the title “Queen of Heaven” and established a feast day honoring Mary, Queen of Heaven.[/FONT]
[/TD]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 178"][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Wiccans call their goddess the “Queen of Heaven."[/FONT]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 171"][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Knew she needed a savior: “And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my saviour.” (Luke 1:47)[/FONT]
[/TD]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 266"][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]“Immaculate Conception” (Mary was conceived sinless, without original sin) and “All-Holy” (Mary lived a sinless life).[/FONT]
[/TD]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 178"][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Goddesses don't need salvation. They make the rules.[/FONT]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 171"][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Normal wife and mother who had other children.[/FONT]
[/TD]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 266"][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]“Perpetual Virginity” (Jesus' brothers and sisters are considered to be cousins).[/FONT]
[/TD]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 178"][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Goddesses don't have human children.[/FONT]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 171"][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]No biblical evidence that Mary didn't die like a normal person.[/FONT]
[/TD]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 266"][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]“Glorious Assumption” (Mary was bodily taken up into Heaven).[/FONT]
[/TD]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 178"][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Goddesses don't die.[/FONT]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 171"][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Jesus told John to take Mary into his home and take care of her as if she was his own mother.[/FONT]
[/TD]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 266"][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Catholics are the adopted children of Mary. “Woman behold your son” (John 19:26) is taken to apply literally to every Catholic.[/FONT]
[/TD]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 178"][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Witches are the adopted, “hidden children” of the Queen of Heaven.[/FONT]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 171"][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Normal woman.[/FONT]
[/TD]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 266"][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Sometimes pictured standing on a crescent moon, wearing a crown or with a circle of stars around her head.[/FONT]
[/TD]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 178"][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Moon goddess.[/FONT]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 171"][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Normal woman.[/FONT]
[/TD]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 266"][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Supernatural (apparitions accompanied by miracles and healings).[/FONT]
[/TD]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 178"][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Supernatural.[/FONT]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 171"][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Points people to Jesus. Mary said, “Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.” (John 2:5)[/FONT]
[/TD]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 266"][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Can make Jesus do things. A full page newspaper ad showing Mary and Jesus says, “He hasn't denied her anything in 2,000 years. What would you have her ask Him?” This is not official Catholic doctrine but it is a widespread attitude which is encouraged by pious literature.[/FONT]
[/TD]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 178"][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Points to herself.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Wants to be worshipped.[/FONT]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 171"][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Knew that she needed a savior. (Luke 1:47)[/FONT]
[/TD]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 266"][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Apparitions of “Mary” have promised that if people wear certain objects (such as a Scapular or Miraculous Medal) or say certain prayers then they are guaranteed to go to Heaven. The Catholic Church has not officially approved of these practices, but it has also not discouraged them.[/FONT]
[/TD]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 178"][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Invoked to make supernatural things happen through witchcraft (the use of special objects and special verbal formulas).[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Goddesses don't need a savior.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

mikeuk · Mar 10, 2015

Other than showing she is not a goddess, nor does RCC revere her as one, nor is she a normal ordinary woman as countless scriptures show, indeed Luther did not agree with you!
So what is the point of an inaccurate table, which proves you have not even read relevant scripture?

Have you ever read revelations 12:1?

Jackson123 said:

- God has exalted Mary in heavenly glory as Queen of Heaven and earth. (Catechism 966) She is to be praised with special devotion. (Catechism 971, 2675)

Psalm 148:13 says, “Let them praise the name of the Lord: for his name alone is excellent; his glory is above the earth and heaven.”This makes it quite clear that only God’s name (not Mary’s) is to be exalted. (In Catholic Bibles the numbering of the chapters and verses of some of the Psalms is slightly different.)

When people tried to give Mary special honor and pre-eminence because she was His mother, Jesus corrected them.

“And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.” (Luke 11:27-28)

In chapters four and five of the Book of Revelation, we are given a quite detailed picture of Heaven. God is seated on the throne, surrounded by 24 elders and four living creatures. The Lamb (Jesus) is standing in the center of the throne. Thousands upon thousands of angels circle the throne, singing God's praises. And Mary is not in the picture at all.

[TABLE="align: center"]
[TR="bgcolor: #FFFF99"]
[TD="class: Normal"]

BIBLICAL MARY

[/TD]
[TD="class: Normal"]

CATHOLIC MARY

[/TD]
[TD="class: Normal"]

THE GODDESS

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 171"]Humble and obedient. Calls herself “the handmaid of the Lord.”[/TD]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 266"]The Pope officially gave Mary the title “Queen of Heaven” and established a feast day honoring Mary, Queen of Heaven.[/TD]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 178"]Wiccans call their goddess the “Queen of Heaven."[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 171"]Knew she needed a savior: “And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my saviour.” (Luke 1:47)[/TD]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 266"]“Immaculate Conception” (Mary was conceived sinless, without original sin) and “All-Holy” (Mary lived a sinless life).[/TD]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 178"]Goddesses don't need salvation. They make the rules.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 171"]Normal wife and mother who had other children.[/TD]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 266"]“Perpetual Virginity” (Jesus' brothers and sisters are considered to be cousins).[/TD]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 178"]Goddesses don't have human children.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 171"]No biblical evidence that Mary didn't die like a normal person.[/TD]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 266"]“Glorious Assumption” (Mary was bodily taken up into Heaven).[/TD]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 178"]Goddesses don't die.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 171"]Jesus told John to take Mary into his home and take care of her as if she was his own mother.[/TD]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 266"]Catholics are the adopted children of Mary. “Woman behold your son” (John 19:26) is taken to apply literally to every Catholic.[/TD]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 178"]Witches are the adopted, “hidden children” of the Queen of Heaven.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 171"]Normal woman.[/TD]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 266"]Sometimes pictured standing on a crescent moon, wearing a crown or with a circle of stars around her head.[/TD]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 178"]Moon goddess.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 171"]Normal woman.[/TD]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 266"]Supernatural (apparitions accompanied by miracles and healings).[/TD]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 178"]Supernatural.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 171"]Points people to Jesus. Mary said, “Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.” (John 2:5)[/TD]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 266"]Can make Jesus do things. A full page newspaper ad showing Mary and Jesus says, “He hasn't denied her anything in 2,000 years. What would you have her ask Him?” This is not official Catholic doctrine but it is a widespread attitude which is encouraged by pious literature.[/TD]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 178"]Points to herself.
Wants to be worshipped.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 171"]Knew that she needed a savior. (Luke 1:47)[/TD]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 266"]Apparitions of “Mary” have promised that if people wear certain objects (such as a Scapular or Miraculous Medal) or say certain prayers then they are guaranteed to go to Heaven. The Catholic Church has not officially approved of these practices, but it has also not discouraged them.[/TD]
[TD="class: Normal, width: 178"]Invoked to make supernatural things happen through witchcraft (the use of special objects and special verbal formulas).
Goddesses don't need a savior.

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Jackson123 · Mar 10, 2015

[h=3]Catholic submit themself to Mary, Is Mary a God as well?

SUBMISSION TO MOTHER MARY - gratitude 216[/h]

Holy Mary, Mother of God, we give thanks because God has freed you from the mem-stain of sin since you conceived; He was pleased to notice your humbleness , and made you a mother of the Savior. IMA also grateful that because you have to be an example of the believers. In response to the call of God, you surrender all your heart, saying, "I am the handmaid of the Lord, pass me according to your word."
Yes Mother, we, the son, loves you and wants to follow the example. Pray us the grace of God, so we always try to do the will of God.
Loving Mother, we submit to you all our family. May the engaku always protect our family. May we all become children who love each other should keoadamu and sincere hearts.

We submit to you all members of our community together leaders. So good you protect them in any effort to build the nation.
Yes queen lover dami, batulah that all nations united, harmonious and peaceful life. Open the path of faith for those who do not know your son, Jesus.
Pray for those who are persecuted for righteousness imandan. Hopefully they persevere, and remain faithful to Jesus, son.
Yes Mary, helper true, this hantarkanlah all our petition before the son, the Maharaja Kingdom of Peace, where every prayer request is granted, each load lightened heart, and all the weaknesses strengthened. He is our Lord now and all time. (Amen.)

Source: gratitude number 216

Posted by St. Louis at 07:43

Label: Virgin Mary , Prayer , Praise-Gratitude

mikeuk · Mar 10, 2015

Jackson123 said:

RCC does not think so - do you?
Answer my question from before, have you ever read revelations 12

notuptome · Mar 10, 2015

mikeuk said:

Scripture teaches that we are to train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it.

Indoctrination does not assure salvation. Each soul must choose to come to Christ and seek forgiveness of sin.

The venom in your post betrays your heart. The love of Christ shines forth from those who know Christ as their personal Savior. It is not about which church but it is about the only Savior of sinful men.

Again until you know salvation you cannot know eternal security of the soul.

All the catechisms of the RCC and the protestant church will not save anybody.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

mikeuk · Mar 10, 2015

notuptome said:

You can hardly accuse me of venom considering what we receive here.

But yes, I fear for the younger generation.
Some of what they are instructed gives them no purpose for embracing full christianity. Double predestination, and "works are irrelevant" cases in point. Sadly if Dawkins does not get them, an evangelical calvinist will

And to me evangelical calvinist is an oxymoron. They have to live with cognitive dissonance. Why evangelise or convert if everyone is predestined up or down anyway?

KenAllan · Mar 10, 2015

Ephesians 3:2
[SUP]2 [/SUP] if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace which was given to me for you.

Paul is speaking of the divine plan and arrangement by which God has called him and sent him to the Gentiles. Paul is not calling himself a savior. Fordman, you have misinterpreted what this verse means. This is no big surprise because you do not have the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

It does not matter what you think or believe Fordman, if Co-redemptrix and Mediatrix are not in the Scriptures then they are false teachings and are not from God! Only the Scriptures have the Truth. There is no Truth outside of the Scriptures!

Mary was never called as a Disciple! God called Paul personally to be His Disciple. God also personally called all the other Disciples! Nowhere in the Scriptures did Jesus Christ ever called Mary to be one of the Disciples! Therefore what you are saying about Mary is a false teaching and is not the Truth. I can tell you why not Mary because Mary was never chosen by God to spread the Gospel to the people.

Fordman, where in the Scriptures did Jesus Christ call Mary to be one of the Disciples? What Book, what verse do you find this? You cannot just make up anything you want and say its from God!

Mary was NOT a "fellow worker" because nowhere in the Scriptures was Mary ever involved in helping Jesus Christ in any way! In fact very little of Mary is anywhere in the Scriptures other than her giving birth to Jesus!

This is why you Fordman are a Catholic and i am a True Christian. I follow only God! I never follow Mary, only God! Only the Truth is in the Scriptures. There is no Truth in the Catholic Church outside of the Scriptures. You Catholics are to support the Truth in the Scriptures, not make up "truths" and try to pawm them off as Truth from the Holy Spirit!

Repent Fordman and accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior before its too late and you end up in Hell Fire along with Satan and his Demons! Reject Mary, reject the Catholic Church and follow God only!

notuptome · Mar 10, 2015

mikeuk said:

The diabolical one already has them. Only the testimony of Christ can save them. They cannot save themselves and we cannot save them against their will.

Which means nothing. One wrong does not justify another. All men are lost in sin and must be saved. They must hear the word of God and be convicted about their personal sin, convicted about the perfect righteousness of Christ and the eternal condemnation of God upon all sin.

Salvation is not earned or deserved. Salvation is a gift given by Eternal God. Free to us but a great cost was paid on our behalf by the Son of God. A price we could never in all of eternity pay for ourselves.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

mikeuk · Mar 10, 2015

KenAllan said:

Nor are they part of catholic dogma. And if you had ever read it you would not find coredemptrix/ mediatrix of all graces in the catechism either or as a matter of dogma, They are pious interpretations not binding on any,

But disregard any of that, note what the catechism (and Lumen Gentium) actually says regards several titles including mediatrix:

970 Marys function "in no way obscures or diminishes the unique mediation of Christ.
Now read it again. Because no matter how many times we say it, it does not seem to sink in with you!

So you still have not read the catechism even now. You are still reading the 101 of anticatholic B/S

KenAllan said:

The first mistake the evangelicals gave you when you left the true church.

Amply proven elsewhere that that statement is BIBLICALLY, LOGICALLY AND HISTORICALLY FALSE!
For all truth to be in scripture it would have to say that and it does not. So it is biblically false. And unless it says so it is logically inconsistent therefore logically false. And because the NT did not exist as it is for early christians sola scriptura was historically false. The true teaching is that "the pillar and foundation of truth is the church"

Your statement is absurd. According to you then, Mary then must be still here, because the bible neither records her death nor her ascension. So where is she then, since you say she is here? What you said - no truth outside scripture - is silly! The bible denys it saying the pillar of truth is the church, and the last verse of John says it does not even cover Christs life and teachings! So it cannot be what you claim.

If it was what you claim (and it cannot be) there would not be 20000 different interpretations of scripture, leading to that many denominations. Scripture is not enouigh by itself, nor was it how the church was handed down, as Paul says by tradition handed on by word of mouth and letter. The NT did not exist in anything like its present form for many years!

So to Mary. There is ample scriptural justification for the title of queen in its proper context , as advocate and mother to a davidic king, and clearly with crown in heaven revelations 12:1 etc spiritual mother revelations 12:17 and so on read my last post. The prayers of saints are potent, and as the most blessed saint, and mother of our lord, hers more than others!

Mary's role is vital and iraneus of Lyon (only 2 generations from apostles) speaks of her role in salvation history - many church fathers since.

KenAllan said:

Fordman is a catholic and christian for sure..

But not sure what you are - you are so mixed up about it all. Some of your biblical interpretations border on farcical, and at very least not only contradict the first 1500 years of the church and RCC since, but also the well known reformers luther, Calvin and most protestant theologians as well. We have pointed this out several times.

Sure you can find someone with such wacky views if you look hard enough, but then with 20000 denominations to chose from, you can find a church holding pretty much any combination of views you like! That does not make them right.

Jackson123 · Mar 11, 2015

mikeuk said:

If you don't believe Mary is goddess, why you pry to Mary?

[h=1]Hail, Holy Queen[/h]

Hail, holy Queen, Mother of mercy, hail, our life, our sweetness and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve: to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears. Turn then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus, O merciful, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary! Amen.

Catholic Heresy (for the record)

mikeuk

Guest

Senior Member

mikeuk

Guest

Senior Member

Banned

WheresEnoch

Guest

mikeuk

Guest

Banned

Banned

mikeuk

Guest

Senior Member

mikeuk

Guest

Senior Member

mikeuk

Guest

Senior Member

mikeuk

Guest

Banned

Senior Member

mikeuk

Guest

Senior Member