Catholic Heresy (for the record)

[mikeuk]

1. I told you, that I don't believe Mary is goddess. Mary is regular human, like everybody else. How regular human clothed with sun and not burn?

Read the scriptures of revelations 12, knowing from the "rod of iron" that this is clearly Mary!.
Do you put limits on what God can do for those he chooses?

I find your english hard to understand - but regard praying to "dead" if I understood you correctly.

Why do you say they are dead?
Matthew 17:3 "Moses and Elijah appeared to them" are clearly saints alive
Mark 12:27 He is not "the god of the dead but the living".
Hebrews 12:1 We are "surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses"
Revelations 4:4 the "prayers of saints" reach the altar of God

Also what matters is how early christians understood what things meant
The church fathers believed this, Hermas, Clement of alexandria, Origen etc etc etc make reference to intercession

Clement says "though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him". The great cloud of witnesses.

 

[Jackson123]

Read the scriptures of revelations 12, knowing from the "rod of iron" that this is clearly Mary!.
Do you put limits on what God can do for those he chooses?

I find your english hard to understand - but regard praying to "dead" if I understood you correctly.

Why do you say they are dead?
Matthew 17:3 "Moses and Elijah appeared to them" are clearly saints alive
Mark 12:27 He is not "the god of the dead but the living".
Hebrews 12:1 We are "surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses"
Revelations 4:4 the "prayers of saints" reach the altar of God

Also what matters is how early christians understood what things meant
The church fathers believed this, Hermas, Clement of alexandria, Origen etc etc etc make reference to intercession

Clement says "though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him". The great cloud of witnesses.

1. Why the word rod of iron always mean Mary ? Jesus will rule with rod of iron. Jesus is not the son of Mary anymore.

Jesus is the creator, who create Mary.

2. Can you talk to Peter? He is physically death isn't it. Do you believe Mary hear billions of catholic pray and remember? You said she is not god don't you? How regular person able to here billions catholic pray in various place. Is she omnipresent like God? Unless you believe she is God than different story.

 

[notuptome]

Read the scriptures of revelations 12, knowing from the "rod of iron" that this is clearly Mary!.
Do you put limits on what God can do for those he chooses?

I find your english hard to understand - but regard praying to "dead" if I understood you correctly.

Why do you say they are dead?
Matthew 17:3 "Moses and Elijah appeared to them" are clearly saints alive
Mark 12:27 He is not "the god of the dead but the living".
Hebrews 12:1 We are "surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses"
Revelations 4:4 the "prayers of saints" reach the altar of God

Also what matters is how early christians understood what things meant
The church fathers believed this, Hermas, Clement of alexandria, Origen etc etc etc make reference to intercession

Clement says "though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him". The great cloud of witnesses.

Here is why you are RC. You do not know the scriptures. Your exegesis is bad really bad. Your application only adds to the problem. Your reliance upon early church fathers does nothing to strengthen your case.

The vale of the temple was rent in twain that we might have access into the holy of holies. Nothing between us and our Savior to prevent us from coming into His presence to make our prayers and petitions known to Him Who delights to meet our needs and answer our prayers.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[mikeuk]

Here is why you are RC. You do not know the scriptures. Your exegesis is bad really bad. Your application only adds to the problem. Your reliance upon early church fathers does nothing to strengthen your case.

The vale of the temple was rent in twain that we might have access into the holy of holies. Nothing between us and our Savior to prevent us from coming into His presence to make our prayers and petitions known to Him Who delights to meet our needs and answer our prayers.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

We will have to agree to disagree. You never did answer any of my questions on alternative intepretations of scripture, other than to disagree with RCC on the matter. Take revelations 12. You would have to twist words to extreme to regard that as other than Mary, but you dneny it because it does not suit your cause.

I have proven sola scriptura is false so many times, more is needed to resolve ambiguities and what it does not say.

The fact is the church fathers - indeed just one or two generations apart, students of the apostles, believe in the real presence and have plenty of scriptures on which to do that. Nobody really doubted it until the reformation, and many of the protestant reformers still believed it afterwards. From the first the church was liturgical sacramental, believed in real presence , baptism and so on.

Yet you do not. You are welcome to disagree.
But you cannot regard others interpretation as deficient, the evidence of people and scripture against you is too large, only that you are "different". Which is up to you.

But Luther criticised such as you saying every milkmaid now thought they could be pope of their own doctrine and interpretation, and that the greatest scandals would follow. Having seen the monster he created without authority he himself said the only way back to unity was via the councils of Rome. And the protestant church has splite endlessly since. Not that either of us have the highest regard for him, but to be fair to RCC, his main "gripe" over paid indulgencies was made explicit at the council of Trent where the pope himself spoke out against them.
If two sides had talked less and listened more, I doubt they would have split or remained apart. But then the eastern rite remained separated more over personalities than doctrine and was willing to come to terms on filioque at one time in history.

 

[mikeuk]

1. Why the word rod of iron always mean Mary ? Jesus will rule with rod of iron. Jesus is not the son of Mary anymore.

Jesus is the creator, who create Mary.

2. Can you talk to Peter? He is physically death isn't it. Do you believe Mary hear billions of catholic pray and remember? You said she is not god don't you? How regular person able to here billions catholic pray in various place. Is she omnipresent like God? Unless you believe she is God than different story.

Jackson, I am struggling with your English. I am not sure what you meant. Take point 1

My assertion is that the woman of revelations 12: is Mary ,and that the son spoken of is Jesus.

Do you disagree , and if so why?
The passage is clearly allegorical, perhaps not "literally clothed with the sun" but indicates she is in heaven, has a crown and her offspring are those who follow commandments which we can reasonably interpret as a spiritual mother. That does not make her a God, any more than elijah is a God because he "ascended into heaven on a chariot of fire", and was clearly seen alive (in spirit) at the transfiguration in new testament times, as was Moses.

We regard Mary as first among saints, not a deity. But she is clearly very special.

 

[notuptome]

We will have to agree to disagree. You never did answer any of my questions on alternative intepretations of scripture, other than to disagree with RCC on the matter. Take revelations 12. You would have to twist words to extreme to regard that as other than Mary, but you dneny it because it does not suit your cause.

I have proven sola scriptura is false so many times, more is needed to resolve ambiguities and what it does not say.

The fact is the church fathers - indeed just one or two generations apart, students of the apostles, believe in the real presence and have plenty of scriptures on which to do that. Nobody really doubted it until the reformation, and many of the protestant reformers still believed it afterwards. From the first the church was liturgical sacramental, believed in real presence , baptism and so on.

Yet you do not. You are welcome to disagree.
But you cannot regard others interpretation as deficient, the evidence of people and scripture against you is too large, only that you are "different". Which is up to you.

But Luther criticised such as you saying every milkmaid now thought they could be pope of their own doctrine and interpretation, and that the greatest scandals would follow. Having seen the monster he created without authority he himself said the only way back to unity was via the councils of Rome. And the protestant church has splite endlessly since. Not that either of us have the highest regard for him, but to be fair to RCC, his main "gripe" over paid indulgencies was made explicit at the council of Trent where the pope himself spoke out against them.
If two sides had talked less and listened more, I doubt they would have split or remained apart. But then the eastern rite remained separated more over personalities than doctrine and was willing to come to terms on filioque at one time in history.

The bottom line is that you and the RCC pick and choose whom you will believe but it is never the word of God. You will go after what you say is some mans understanding of what the word of God says but never go right to the word Himself.

There will always be a divide between the sheep and the goats.

Isaiah prophesied that the Messiah would come out of Bethlehem Judea so from prophecy we see Israel as the source of the Redeemer not from a single person.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Jeff_56]

Jesus lets the heretics disagree all they want. (as in 'agree to disagree')

They are lost forever of course, if they keep disagreeing

instead of

submitting to Him as Lord and Savior and King and Judge and Messiah.

Perhaps He will grant them forgiveness one day. Perhaps not. Yahweh has mercy on who He choses to have mercy, and heretics don't receive mercy unless they repent - ("there is no forgiveness without repentance") ..

 

[Jackson123]

Jackson, I am struggling with your English. I am not sure what you meant. Take point 1

My assertion is that the woman of revelations 12: is Mary ,and that the son spoken of is Jesus.

Do you disagree , and if so why?
The passage is clearly allegorical, perhaps not "literally clothed with the sun" but indicates she is in heaven, has a crown and her offspring are those who follow commandments which we can reasonably interpret as a spiritual mother. That does not make her a God, any more than elijah is a God because he "ascended into heaven on a chariot of fire", and was clearly seen alive (in spirit) at the transfiguration in new testament times, as was Moses.

We regard Mary as first among saints, not a deity. But she is clearly very special.

I disagree that woman is Mary.

Why I disagree?

Because, Mary is human, Jesus is God. Mary is only temporary as a Jesus mother. Jesus created Mary, Jesus exist away before Mary.

I don't know if Mary is first among the saints.

I don't know is Mary ascended to heaven, it is not in the bible.

Let me give you analogy.

New paper wrote, When Obama bought a dog for his daughter.

I bought a dog for my son, and not in the news.

Why?

Because Obama is president, I am ordinary person. His social status is away higher than me.

You said Mary is first among saint. Mean she is higher then Elijah.

When Elijah ascended to heaven, it is in the bible. Now you said Mary is ascended to heaven and she is the first among saint, why not in the bible?


Above all, why you pray to Mary if you believe she is not god.

 

[KenAllan]

Mikeuk where is Joseph Mary's husband? Nowhere in the Bible does is say he died. Therefore by your false Catholic Logic Joseph must have been assumed into Heaven.

What a fool you are Mikeuk. You insist on proof of Mary dying but yet you accept that Mary was sinless without any proof from the Bible. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

You demand proof from us True Christians but yet swallow hook, line, and sinker that Mary was without sin. The Holy Spirit says Mary was a sinner. How can you follow God and call the Holy Spirit a liar at the same time?

You keep evading the issue. If the Doctrines of Mary are false then the Catholic Church is not the pillar of the Truth.

I'll give you one more chance Mikeuk, where in the Scriptures does the Holy Spirit says Mary was without sin?

Its a shame Mikeuk that you reject what God has said in the Scriptures to follow deceitful Demons speaking lies. Only the Scriptures have the Truth because the Scriptures came from God who is the Truth. The teachings about Mary did not come from the Scriptures but came from this World. Who is in charge of this World? Its Satan who is in charge. Therefore all the Doctrines about Mary are from Satan.

Where is your proof that the World has more Truth than God? Could it be you hate God? Could this be the reason you reject the Holy Spirit and accept the lies of this World?

You are not fighting me Mikeuk you are fighting the Holy Spirit by calling Him a liar for saying Mary was a sinner.

Who has more Authority, God or Satan? Who has the Truth God or this World?

 

[blue_ladybug]

Mary was human. She died. Joseph was also human, and he died too. Mary is not a saint, and not to be venerated or worshiped or prayed to. It is JESUS who intercedes to God for us, NOT Mary..

 

[mikeuk]

I disagree that woman is Mary.

Why I disagree? Because, Mary is human,

You cannot disagree with a scripture because you decide limits on what God can do with people!

If you limit people on the basis of your experience, You would never have believed that Elijah could have been carried on a chariot of fire, or that he should appear long after his time on earth with Moses at the transfiguration. But scripture says it is so. So you have no choice but to believe revelations 12 is speaking of Mary. It may be allegorical, but it is clearly her.

She is honoured above Elijah! She is the only one called with title " full of grace" " favoured by God" " lord is with her" " blessed by all generations" her spiritual " offspring those who keep the commandments" rev 12-17
She is human but very very special

Above all, why you pray to Mary if you believe she is not god.

All explained above. But we do not pray to her, we ask her to pray for us. We are not obliged to do that even! It is optional!

All the best known church fathers both believed in this and did so, including such as Jerome, Augustine, and later such as the very clever Thomas aquinas, Dominic and so on so if you disagree, you disagree with some very wise men! Augustine was around at the time of the councils that settled the New Testament, so he reflects the beliefs of those who decided your canon!

Put this into context, if you ever go to a mass you may hear her name twice in the context of pray for us,
the names of Christ, Lamb of a God, Holy Spirit , God a hundred times or more, in the context of we pray to them.
So Mary is important, but does not usurp Christ in any way.

Enough. Believe what you will.

 

[Jackson123]

You cannot disagree with a scripture because you decide limits on what God can do with people!

If you limit people on the basis of your experience, You would never have believed that Elijah could have been carried on a chariot of fire, or that he should appear long after his time on earth with Moses at the transfiguration. But scripture says it is so. So you have no choice but to believe revelations 12 is speaking of Mary. It may be allegorical, but it is clearly her.

She is honoured above Elijah! She is the only one called with title " full of grace" " favoured by God" " lord is with her" " blessed by all generations" her spiritual " offspring those who keep the commandments" rev 12-17
She is human but very very special




All explained above. But we do not pray to her, we ask her to pray for us. We are not obliged to do that even! It is optional!

All the best known church fathers both believed in this and did so, including such as Jerome, Augustine, and later such as the very clever Thomas aquinas, Dominic and so on so if you disagree, you disagree with some very wise men! Augustine was around at the time of the councils that settled the New Testament, so he reflects the beliefs of those who decided your canon!

Put this into context, if you ever go to a mass you may hear her name twice in the context of pray for us,
the names of Christ, Lamb of a God, Holy Spirit , God a hundred times or more, in the context of we pray to them.
So Mary is important, but does not usurp Christ in any way.

Enough. Believe what you will.

I agree with the bible. But the bible never said Mary is queen of heaven, and the bible said Jesus create Mary. Jesus exist before Mary.


You believe Mary ascended to heaven don't you? Why not in the bible?

If Elijah ascended to heaven in the bible, why not Mary? Mary is higher then Elijah.

Let me repeat my analogy.

1 Obama bought a dog for his daughter. And it is in the news.

2 I bought a dog for my son. It is not in the news, because Obama has higher social status than me.



1. Elijah ascended to heaven, it is in the bible.

2. Mary ascended to heaven, it is not in the bible because Elijah has higher social status than Mary? Or Mary not ascended to heaven.

about pray to Mary

This prayer below is form official indonesian catholic. Original in Indonesian but if you click translate this page, it will automatically translated.

Doa-Doa Kepada Bunda Maria - Ekaristi Dot Org

www.ekaristi.org/doa/dokumen.php?...

Translate this page

Delivery Prayer To Mary Hymns Bakti, 1991, No. 52Holy Mary, Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ, thou art Queen's noblest. so good you became queen us all. Tunjukanlah to us the path to holiness and guide us so as not to get lost.
Take charge of our mind, so we're just looking for the right.
We will be over, so we just want good.
Take charge of our hearts, that we love one another as a brother.
Overcome ourselves each and all family members.
Overcome all members of society, every nation and world dignitaries.
May the strap you into them all in a firm unity.
Overcome all mankind.
Open to the path of faith for those who are not familiar with your Son, Jesus.
Help her to all nations united, harmonious and peaceful life.
Naungilah all mankind, especially the persecuted and hounded.
They bear it in oppression and enlighten those in darkness, in order to remain faithful to Jesus, your son.
Hantarlah all our petition to thy Son, the Maharaja kingdom of peace, where every prayer of the petition is granted, every load lightened hearts and infirmities healed.
I hope people who know His power and put hope in Him. occasionally see the royal splendor of thy Son, who with the Father and the Holy Spirit lives and power, now and all time. Amen

read this prayer. Up to line 15, it is pray to Mary. Asking Mary to take charge the prayers mind, etc.

the different between asking Mary to pray and pray to Mary is how it start.


Example

A. asking Mary to pray for us:
Mary please pray for me. I am sick, and so on.


B. Pray to Mary.

Holy Mary, mother of Jesus, please be our queen.

this request aim directly to Mary. so it is pray to Mary.

If asking Mary to pray, than it will be:

Mary please ask Jesus to make yourself queen of us.


The second sentence if you click translate page, will say so good you become queen us all. but the translation machine is not accurate. it must be Please be our queen.

 

[GaryA]

What really is sad is the billions of Catholics who will not be allowed to enter into Heaven because of the lies from the Catholic Church that enslaves them.

Indeed!

 

[mikeuk]

<more words that fail to answer the questions>

Ken. You had the absurd view of sola scriptura not me. And my example proved it - you need more than scripture to arrive at the truth.

Since you contested neither, can I assume you now agree
1/ That scripture says that the "pillar and foundation of truth is the church" not scripture - inevitably so if you understand the history of the early church.
2/ That the woman of revelations 12 is clearly Mary.

It is necessary to determine the truth.
Nowhere in scripture is the "trinity" defined, but most believe it as derived truth do you?
The tradition, that is the practice of early christians is overwhelming in favour of the real presence. So do you believe in what the church and history teaches as the true interpretation of scripture?

Mary was special. Scripture does not record that she sinned.
"Full of grace", "lord was with her", "favoured by God" "blessed by all".
We are told in the Lords prayer that God can keep us free from the temptation to sin, and that with Gods grace with which Mary was full, will be less tempted to sin, so do you doubt God's power to do that for Mary, and keep her free from temptation to sin.? The one appointed to look after his son and teach him in his early years? The ark of the new covenant.
Why do you put limits on God?
The reality is the church believed it as endless church fathers attest. It is only using your silly version of sola scriptura you dispute it, yet I proved your version of sola scriptura is false by asking where Mary is now. So that is what I believe, and scripture does not dispute it. Sola scriptura is your problem, as is ignoring the pillar of truth.

Ken you clearly knew little of catholicism because of some wacky views you hold about it, even in the most recent statement you quote the catechism wrongly. I suspect you know just as little of the theology of those you now are part of either, indeed I suspect you are being fed some of the arguments you now use. They do not sound like the old you.. You also have (I will polite) fringe views of what scripture means, that an army of protestant and catholic theologians disagree. So you are welcome to "fringe" views, so long as you accept them as such.

In any event scripture says "call no man fool" so it seems you know nothing of scripture - and if that is the level to which you descend, here ends the conversation.

I am called to say what we believe and why, I am not called to make you believe it.

 

[mikeuk]

I agree with the bible. But the bible never said Mary is queen of heaven, .

Jackson.
You cannot dispute scripture in revelations 12 because you are uncomfortable with what it implies is possible for God to do with his people. For elijah and moses to appear at the transfiguration is beyond your experience. You are obliged to believe it.

I have demonstrated that scripture attests that "queen" is an appropriate honorary title for mother of a davidic King, not as co ruler but advocate made clear in Solomons kingdom and later To understand the new testament you have to study the old, just as to understand the reference to "keys of the kingdom" you go back to davidic kings - Hezekiah and the role of steward in a davidic kingdom. In any event the woman of revelations 12 is crowned, which is a symbol of regality.

If you want to ignore the scriptures of the davidic kingdom, indeed those of revelation, just because you do not like what they say, then that is up to you.

Your problem is "sola scriptura". Where in the bible does it say it must be in the bible to be true? It is biblically, logically and historically must be false. The early christians did not have the bible in the form you now have it. Have you ever looked up the history of that?

So since the views are aired, little point in continuing this. We disagree.
I still struggle with your English! But I do my best.

 

[mikeuk]

Mary was human. She died. Joseph was also human, and he died too. Mary is not a saint, and not to be venerated or worshiped or prayed to. It is JESUS who intercedes to God for us, NOT Mary..

Do the titles "full of grace" "favoured by god" "lord is with her" mean nothing to you?
Or that Elizabeth was honoured to be in her presence of the "mother of the lord" ?
The Hebrew word used in the Old Testament for saint is “chaciyd” which means “faithful, kind, godly" so how can you say she was not a saint?

Revelations 12:17 says "her children (assume spiritual) are those who believe in the commandments of Jesus"
No ordinary woman then, chosen from all humanity by God to be the "mother of our lord", the ark of the new covenant. The one who taught and protected our Lord when young. Sure she owes all of what she was to God, but it does not make her any less special.

Catholic doctrine Catechism 690 (from memory) says that
"Mary in no way adds to or detracts from the sole mediation of Christ"
So we agree on that. The problem with threads like this Blue Lady is that the same myths are repeated time and again. Defended time and again. Then repeated again. My suggestion to all is find out what RCC believes THEN criticise it , in that order, rather than believe the latest evangelical myth about it.

Can you show me where in scripture it says that Mary died? So strict adherence to "sola scriptura" implies she is still here on earth, since it says nothing else. Sola scriptura is the problem, which is logically false. Whilst the bible is truth, it is not all truth. The "pillar and foundation of truth" is the church. Or so scripture says, if you believe in scripture!

 

[Jackson123]

Jackson.
You cannot dispute scripture in revelations 12 because you are uncomfortable with what it implies is possible for God to do with his people. For elijah and moses to appear at the transfiguration is beyond your experience. You are obliged to believe it.

I have demonstrated that scripture attests that "queen" is an appropriate honorary title for mother of a davidic King, not as co ruler but advocate made clear in Solomons kingdom and later To understand the new testament you have to study the old, just as to understand the reference to "keys of the kingdom" you go back to davidic kings - Hezekiah and the role of steward in a davidic kingdom. In any event the woman of revelations 12 is crowned, which is a symbol of regality.

If you want to ignore the scriptures of the davidic kingdom, indeed those of revelation, just because you do not like what they say, then that is up to you.

Your problem is "sola scriptura". Where in the bible does it say it must be in the bible to be true? It is biblically, logically and historically must be false. The early christians did not have the bible in the form you now have it. Have you ever looked up the history of that?

So since the views are aired, little point in continuing this. We disagree.
I still struggle with your English! But I do my best.

Brother, think about it.

So Mary is advocate? Whose advocate? Is she Advocate for catholic?

Mary is also goddess because you pray TO Mary as well.

It is coup d'etat tray to replace Christ.

I am sorry if you don't understand my English, but ask me what part you don't understand.

 

[KenAllan]

Mikeuk, you cannot just make up any Doctrine you want to justify your Worship of Mary. The Holy Spirit says that ALL have sinned and the only person who was sinless was Jesus Christ.

Romans 3:23
[SUP]23 [/SUP] for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

Hebrews 4:15
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.

The word ALL means everyone which includes Mary also. To say you need what Satan says also to receive the Truth shows you really have not accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. How can you understand Spiritual Truths in the Scriptures when you do not have the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit? You cannot!

Therefore Mikeuk you are a false Christian teaching a different Gospel then the one we have received from the Holy Spirit. Which also means that the Catholic Church in teachings false Doctrines is not the True Church and is not the Pillar of the Truth. We are not to listen to any teachings from the Catholic Church today because it has walked away from God and the Truth to follow and Worship Mary as its god.

I have caught you in many lies about Mary so why should anyone listen to your lies from the Catholic Church when we have the Truth from the Holy Spirit in the Scriptures? Do you not realize you are doing the will of your father Satan?

Repent Mikeuk and accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior so you too can enter into Heaven with us True Christians. Otherwise if you keep on the road you are on you will never be allowed into Heaven.

Matthew 7:21-23
[SUP]21 [/SUP] " Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] " Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
[SUP]23 [/SUP] "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

Calling the Holy Spirit a liar by teaching Mary was sinless is not doing the Will of the Father and WILL keep you out of Heaven Mikeuk.

Until you receive Salvation you will never receive the Truth from the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:12-14
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things freely given to us by God,
[SUP]13 [/SUP] which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

You are a natural man who refuses to accept the Truth from the Holy Spirit because they are foolishness to you. This is why Mikeuk you need to repent and accept Salvation before its too late.

 

[mikeuk]

Brother, think about it.

So Mary is advocate? Whose advocate? Is she Advocate for catholic?

Mary is also goddess because you pray TO Mary as well.

It is coup d'etat tray to replace Christ.

I am sorry if you don't understand my English, but ask me what part you don't understand.

Mary is not a goddess. We do not consider her one. Read the catechism. She does not "add or remove anything from christ's unique mediation role" .

Anyway gentlemen and ladies.. I am shortly going abroad and will not be back for a couple of weeks.
So I will be silent. I do not know if I will return.

It is rather pointless posting.
You say "you think she is a goddess" I say no we do not think that. read the catechism which proves what we believe
You say again "you think she is a goddess" I say again, no we do not think that. read the catechism which proves what we believe
You say again again "you think she is a goddess" I say again again , no we do not think that. read the catechism which proves what we believe

What is the point.
I urge just several things.
1/ Read the catechism if you want to know what we believe, before criticise it.
As catholics we do not have the freedom of belief others do.
We either agree to it, or we are not catholics. Catechism of the Catholic Church

2/ Analyze the claim of sola scriptura. Realize it is biblically, logically and historically false. Scripture is truth, but more is needed to decide interpretation. The bible says "the pillar and foundation of truth is the church" not scripture.

3/ So study the early church. Discover it was liturgical, sacramental, appointed bishops, believed in such as real presence, even from the first students of the disciples. People talk of apostasy but when? Some say before constantine , other say after, for some lUtherans not till middle ages. But the church fathers are consistent in their statements, indeed all the way to the present day RCC , little has changed in doctrine. For apostasy you expect to see a doctrine change. It is hard to find inconsistency between the fathers so when can it have been?

4/ A massive key to interpreting the bible is in the old testament. Jesus frequently quotes scripture, even on the cross! When jesus quotes "keys of the kingdom" it is a direct reference back to the office of steward of davidic kings a role equivalent to "prime minister". Jews were obsessive about their own history and looking for meaning in their scriptures (ie the Old testament) and when the NT refers to "scripture" it can only be the old testament.

5/Study the history of the bible. How was the faith handed on in early times? When did the canon of the new testament get compiled and by who?, and who took those decisions? what did they believe? Indeed look at what Paul quoted: the septuagint seemingly, which from historic records seems to contain maccabees - so why exclude it, and on what grounds?

6/Sure the church did some bad things. People do. Luther most abhorred paid indulgencies, but look at the records and see that in the end the church addressed it. The pope at the council of trent, only a few years later spoke out against paid indulgencies! Both should have listened more and argued less.

7/ But ever since the reformation, everyone now feels empowered to have their own doctrinal interpretation which is why there are now 30000 denominations and even more non denominationals. Luther despaired of this in later life, realizing the problem of lack of authority, saying the only way back to unity was via the catholic councils. He said so. So consider the question for yourself. How can a faction born of a doctrinal fracture, destined to fracture itself in time, ever represent the true church? There is no compass in these denominations which is why they drift apart. Look on this forum at bitter arguments on such as salvation between protestants, with several contradicting views. Most of them must be heresy.
Seemingly the only unity is in opposition to RCC, because they cannot reconcile their own differences

THESE ARE THE ESSENTIAL REASONS I LEFT PROTESTANTISM, THEN EVANGELICAL, CAME HOME TO RCC!
Once the myths are dispelled, what is left is justifiable.
The more I studied history, the more there became only one choice left..

Anyway, I go abroad shortly. I may not be back.
I find it frustrating repeating the same things - obviously true - and endlessly.

 

[Jackson123]

Mary is not a goddess. We do not consider her one. Read the catechism. She does not "add or remove anything from christ's unique mediation role" .

Anyway gentlemen and ladies.. I am shortly going abroad and will not be back for a couple of weeks.
So I will be silent. I do not know if I will return.

It is rather pointless posting.
You say "you think she is a goddess" I say no we do not think that. read the catechism which proves what we believe
You say again "you think she is a goddess" I say again, no we do not think that. read the catechism which proves what we believe
You say again again "you think she is a goddess" I say again again , no we do not think that. read the catechism which proves what we believe

What is the point.
I urge just several things.
1/ Read the catechism if you want to know what we believe, before criticise it.
As catholics we do not have the freedom of belief others do.
We either agree to it, or we are not catholics. Catechism of the Catholic Church

2/ Analyze the claim of sola scriptura. Realize it is biblically, logically and historically false. Scripture is truth, but more is needed to decide interpretation. The bible says "the pillar and foundation of truth is the church" not scripture.

3/ So study the early church. Discover it was liturgical, sacramental, appointed bishops, believed in such as real presence, even from the first students of the disciples. People talk of apostasy but when? Some say before constantine , other say after, for some lUtherans not till middle ages. But the church fathers are consistent in their statements, indeed all the way to the present day RCC , little has changed in doctrine. For apostasy you expect to see a doctrine change. It is hard to find inconsistency between the fathers so when can it have been?

4/ A massive key to interpreting the bible is in the old testament. Jesus frequently quotes scripture, even on the cross! When jesus quotes "keys of the kingdom" it is a direct reference back to the office of steward of davidic kings a role equivalent to "prime minister". Jews were obsessive about their own history and looking for meaning in their scriptures (ie the Old testament) and when the NT refers to "scripture" it can only be the old testament.

5/Study the history of the bible. How was the faith handed on in early times? When did the canon of the new testament get compiled and by who?, and who took those decisions? what did they believe? Indeed look at what Paul quoted: the septuagint seemingly, which from historic records seems to contain maccabees - so why exclude it, and on what grounds?

6/Sure the church did some bad things. People do. Luther most abhorred paid indulgencies, but look at the records and see that in the end the church addressed it. The pope at the council of trent, only a few years later spoke out against paid indulgencies! Both should have listened more and argued less.

7/ But ever since the reformation, everyone now feels empowered to have their own doctrinal interpretation which is why there are now 30000 denominations and even more non denominationals. Luther despaired of this in later life, realizing the problem of lack of authority, saying the only way back to unity was via the catholic councils. He said so. So consider the question for yourself. How can a faction born of a doctrinal fracture, destined to fracture itself in time, ever represent the true church? There is no compass in these denominations which is why they drift apart. Look on this forum at bitter arguments on such as salvation between protestants, with several contradicting views. Most of them must be heresy.
Seemingly the only unity is in opposition to RCC, because they cannot reconcile their own differences

THESE ARE THE ESSENTIAL REASONS I LEFT PROTESTANTISM, THEN EVANGELICAL, CAME HOME TO RCC!
Once the myths are dispelled, what is left is justifiable.
The more I studied history, the more there became only one choice left..

Anyway, I go abroad shortly. I may not be back.
I find it frustrating repeating the same things - obviously true - and endlessly.

The problem is you pray to Mary and you say not.

You said Hail Mary mean Please pray for me and it is not

Hail Mary is prayer directed to Mary, it is seen from it words. There is not a word that indicate please pray for me.