Charismatics Practice Gnosticism?

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Jan 6, 2018
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#21
Keep therefore the words of this covenant, and do them, that ye may prosper in all that ye do. Deut 29:9
That Covenant God made with ancient Israel, and you are not keeping it if you don't go outside in a hole and bury it.

Each of you must have a spade as part of your equipment. Whenever you relieve yourself, dig a hole with the spade and cover the excrement.
Deuteronomy 23:13 NLT
https://bible.com/bible/116/deu.23.13.NLT
 

tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
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#23
Broadly speaking there are two types of Gnosticism one is centered on Greek Philosophy the other combines it with Christianity within each there are a number of variations but they all share some common beliefs.

Christian Gnostic's believed that the material universe was evil and the product of an inferior God that they believed to be the God of the OT. Jesus didnt come into the world to deliver us from sin but to teach us Gnosis (Knowledge) and by doing so free us from our material bodies. He didnt have a material body and didn't die. They saw our real selves as pure spirit and part of the 'real' God Gnosis as being the way of freeing ourselves from the bodies we are trapped in to become one with him again. They also believed in a number of beings they called Aeons which were sort of extensions of the real God but rebelled and spend their time preventing us from obtaining Gnosis and becoming pure spirit.

I cant really see how Charismatics can be viewed as Gnostic at all
 
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Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#24
Which Charismatics say such things? Quote a real person, or a real church's statement of faith. You can make all the claims you like, but until you provide a source, your assertions are equivalent to baseless opinions.
This request is fair enough. Indeed you (whom Dino is addressing) have a duty to quote directly from Charismatics to establish what you are claiming about their doctrines. Christians have a responsibility to be fair and present evidence.
 
Jan 6, 2018
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#25
Broadly speaking there are two types of Gnosticism one is centered on Greek Philosophy the other combines it with Christianity within each there are a number of variations but they all share some common beliefs.

Christian Gnostic's believed that the material universe was evil and the product of an inferior God that they believed to be the God of the OT. Jesus didnt come into the world to deliver us from sin but to teach us Gnosis (Knowledge) and by doing so free us from our material bodies. He didnt have a material body and didn't die. They saw our real selves as pure spirit and part of the 'real' God Gnosis as being the way of freeing ourselves from the bodies we are trapped in to become one with him again. They also believed in a number of beings they called Aeons which were sort of extensions of the real God but rebelled and spend their time preventing us from obtaining Gnosis and becoming pure spirit.

I cant really see how Charismatics can be viewed as Gnostic at all
I'm only speaking of the parallel to what the Encyclopedia Britannica lists as the major Gnostic beliefs common to all Gnostic sects of the 2nd and 3rd centuries which I listed in my OP.
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
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#26
That Covenant God made with ancient Israel, and you are not keeping it if you don't go outside in a hole and bury it.

Each of you must have a spade as part of your equipment. Whenever you relieve yourself, dig a hole with the spade and cover the excrement.
Deuteronomy 23:13 NLT
https://bible.com/bible/116/deu.23.13.NLT
If that is what you hear the LORD saying to you, then you might read Deuteronomy 8:3 before you say that the Matthew 4:4 is the covenant that the LORD made with you. [See Luke 6:46]

 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
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#27
Christians do not believe in deification. That is a Gnostic heresy.
If that which is born of the flesh is flesh, then if that which is born of the flesh is God then rationalize it anyway you want, it is deification.
 
Jan 6, 2018
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#28
If that is what you hear the LORD saying to you, then you might read Deuteronomy 8:3 before you say that the Matthew 4:4 is the covenant that the LORD made with you. [See Luke 6:46]

If you want to pretend you have an OT covenant with God you are free to do that. Now I am not discussing all of the Charismatic nutty doctrines like that one. Can we get back to the OP topic?
 
Jan 6, 2018
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#29
If that which is born of the flesh is flesh, then if that which is born of the flesh is God then rationalize it anyway you want, it is deification.
Then you obviously don't believe in the First Commandment.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
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#30
That Covenant God made with ancient Israel, and you are not keeping it if you don't go outside in a hole and bury it.

Each of you must have a spade as part of your equipment. Whenever you relieve yourself, dig a hole with the spade and cover the excrement.
Deuteronomy 23:13 NLT
https://bible.com/bible/116/deu.23.13.NLT
It would no longer be necessary to do this if you were trying to keep the law. Most of us have indoor plumbing now to wash away the filth. This can only apply to a people living in outdoor camps.
 

jb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2010
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#31
Here is how Charismatics parallel the Gnostic heretics of the second and third century.

A. The world is a Platonic duality of a pure spirit world vs an evil material world.

B. Salvation is achieved by a special race of humans by accumulation of special knowledge.

C. This knowledge is special revelation that reawakens the race to their divine identity.

(My info on Gnosticism is from the Encyclopedia Britannica)
Instead of pointing your finger at others and making ridiculous claims, why not look at yourself!
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#32
Then let's hear them refute these errors.

We are still waiting on proof. Your on a which hunt that is for sure, But you have shown not 1 ounce of proof that these people say or even believe what you claim.

we had people go on a witch hunt against what they claimed was hyper grace. it did not go over well, and the mods had to step in, Why do you think your witch hunt will have any better results?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#33
That Covenant God made with ancient Israel, and you are not keeping it if you don't go outside in a hole and bury it.

Each of you must have a spade as part of your equipment. Whenever you relieve yourself, dig a hole with the spade and cover the excrement.
Deuteronomy 23:13 NLT
https://bible.com/bible/116/deu.23.13.NLT
Are you sinless? If not. You have not kept that covenant

Why do you not go for a better covenant, which Christ paid for with his death?

 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#34
Christ doesn't teach Gnostic heresy.

So far. You have not proven these people do either. Can you show me a group of people who claim to be Gods (I know the mormons claim that is their goal. never heard others say this)
 

Lancelot

Senior Member
Mar 19, 2015
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#35
I think he's basing this on the assumption that Word of Faith theology came from E. W. Kenyon (a flawed assumption), and that Kenyon's teaching on Sense Knowledge and Revelation Knowledge somehow states that sense knowledge isn't real. But Kenyon didn't say that. He said that sense knowledge (sight, hearing, taste, touch, smell) has produced a lot of great benefits to man through science, but it has its limitations, and when scientists who go by sense knowledge alone reach the limitations of sense knowledge, they begin to speculate. This is where (according to Kenyon) the theory of evolution comes from. Revelation knowledge (the Bible, not the secret knowledge of the Gnostic teachers) tells us where man came from and why he is here, something we can't learn from sense knowledge. Word of Faith critics try to pin the label of Gnosticism on WoF teachers, but all you have to do is read through the Wikipedia article on Gnosticism and then read a few of Kenneth Hagin's (or even Kenyon's for that matter) books on faith and confession to see that there's zero linking them. Believing, confessing, and acting on God's Word to appropriate His provision has nothing to do with attaining the secret knowledge of Gnosticism to escape the evil physical universe created by an evil lesser god known as a demiurge in order to enter the good universe of pure spirit where the original god lives. This is a pure fantasy created by Word of Faith opponents to scare the uninitiated into believing that the WoF is evil.
 

Demi777

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2014
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#36
Why are ppl even still talking to him.he always comes and does the same, accusing brethren and hate
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#37
Broadly speaking there are two types of Gnosticism one is centered on Greek Philosophy the other combines it with Christianity within each there are a number of variations but they all share some common beliefs.
I see the difference of the two a little differently... The cross for both became a stumbling block to the foolish who add to the word of God making the one source of the wisdom of God without effect ..Called prophecy (all things written in the law and the prophets .)

Gnosticism relating to knowledge, especially esoteric mystical knowledge as the wisdom of this world (philosophy.. The Greek would say show us God through our intellect (an intellectual gospel) And the foolish Jews, show us a miracle then we will believe. (the sign and lying wonders gospel) Both remain today.(the veil is still rent)

For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.For the Jews "require a sign", and the Greeks "seek after wisdom":But we preach
Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 1Co 1:22

John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

John 2:18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?

Luke 11:16 And others, tempting him, sought of
hima sign from heaven.

John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

They treated Christ like a circus seal..
 
Jan 6, 2018
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#38
I think he's basing this on the assumption that Word of Faith theology came from E. W. Kenyon (a flawed assumption), and that Kenyon's teaching on Sense Knowledge and Revelation Knowledge somehow states that sense knowledge isn't real. But Kenyon didn't say that. He said that sense knowledge (sight, hearing, taste, touch, smell) has produced a lot of great benefits to man through science, but it has its limitations, and when scientists who go by sense knowledge alone reach the limitations of sense knowledge, they begin to speculate. This is where (according to Kenyon) the theory of evolution comes from. Revelation knowledge (the Bible, not the secret knowledge of the Gnostic teachers) tells us where man came from and why he is here, something we can't learn from sense knowledge. Word of Faith critics try to pin the label of Gnosticism on WoF teachers, but all you have to do is read through the Wikipedia article on Gnosticism and then read a few of Kenneth Hagin's (or even Kenyon's for that matter) books on faith and confession to see that there's zero linking them. Believing, confessing, and acting on God's Word to appropriate His provision has nothing to do with attaining the secret knowledge of Gnosticism to escape the evil physical universe created by an evil lesser god known as a demiurge in order to enter the good universe of pure spirit where the original god lives. This is a pure fantasy created by Word of Faith opponents to scare the uninitiated into believing that the WoF is evil.
Thank you for addressing my points instead of just attacking me like most do in this forum.

Kenyon taught that sense knowledge, the 5 physical senses, hindered one from the knowledge of being what he termed a race of "supermen". Revelation knowledge, knowledge we get apart from receiving it through any of our 5 physical senses, was the only way to know God and our deified state. That is definitely a Gnostic parallel. Here Charisma magazine uses "information" instead of sense knowledge but it means the same.

https://www.charismamag.com/blogs/straight-talk/15859-a-little-less-information-please
 
Nov 12, 2015
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#39
I'm with Phil on this. While reading your first post, I had the same exact thought as him - he's referring more to WOF'ers than to charismatics...


having said that, ii don't know a whole lot about charismatics because I largely just stay away from them because their focus seems to be off to me. (In my opinion.)
 
Jan 6, 2018
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#40
I'm with Phil on this. While reading your first post, I had the same exact thought as him - he's referring more to WOF'ers than to charismatics...


having said that, ii don't know a whole lot about charismatics because I largely just stay away from them because their focus seems to be off to me. (In my opinion.)
I have sourced Strang and Charisma Magazine twice. You can't get more Charismatic than him.