Charismatics

[atwhatcost]

I got lost in all the "comfortables" and "uncomfortables."

Oh goodie! We're both on a roll of not understanding each other. lol

One question -- who walked a comfortable walk with God in the Bible? Or, who did God give an easy life to? (Really -- one question, just put in two ways, since you didn't get the first way. )

 

[Willie-T]

I didn't get this. (Not determining if you're right or wrong, because I didn't get it.) God is omniscient. What doesn't he know about us? (And that's where I got lost, so I didn't get the rest.)

The point is for YOU. For you to enter into the mode of wanting to let Him know everything you are.

Why do you pray..... He already knows what you are going to pray about.

Why are we "tested"? God already knows the outcome. It is for US.

 

[atwhatcost]

I have no problem with lively worship - I love that about our church. The sermons are about 45 minutes, they are Biblical and always encouraging but they have very little in the way of delving deeper into the Bible and the "meaty" stuff if you get my drift. I love enthusiastic worship and I think I would miss that if I changed churches but I am considering is because I cannot take the weird stuff. I do believe in the gifts of the spirit but I do not believe that it is always truly of the spirit in everyone displaying it.

I'm curious. I'm really not a secessionist, but it seems to me some gifts aren't necessarily a part of Sunday service, some are downright necessary or there isn't a Sunday Service, and others are good before or after service. Better, if throughout the week.

Downright necessary:
-- Word of knowledge.
-- Word of faith.
-- Word of wisdom.
-- Discerning of spirits.
(That sounds like what the sermon ought to be.)

Not so necessary:
-- Gift of Prophecy
-- Tongues
-- Interpreting Tongues
-- Discerning of spirits. (Hey now. How often do spirits need to be discerned? )
(Just seems to me, these are things usually only for some folks, not all folks, so why not do this when together with the some folks? I have been used for a prophecy once -- not a gift so much as the right person in the right moment, so God used me -- where it was for the full church, but most of the time it's only for one or two people.)

As needed before and after service:
-- Gift of miracles
-- Gift of tongues.
-- Gift of interpretation.
-- Gift of discernment of spirits. (Great gift, but usually one for more private use than public use. And I included it for the sermon because the pastor ought to be able to sense if there is something in the air that says this particular sermon isn't appropriate for this day.)
-- Gift of faith.
-- Gift of wisdom.
-- Gift of knowledge.
-- Word of wisdom.
-- Different Tongues. (In case a nonnative speaker comes along. Might also be good to have the person gifted that way sit with that person, in case, God wants that person to know something during service too.)
(Basically all the gifts used for whoever needs prayer.)

I mean, I'm not Charismatic anymore, but this is roughly how my denomination does it. (Well, my denomination is in the air when it comes to tongues. Some churches accept it. Some don't, but at least they warn you about that before you join. lol)

I used to spend a lot of time listening to people speaking tongues for a good 15-20 minutes and absolutely no one interpreted. And, I've heard gifts of prophecy where I knew that wasn't for me, so looked up and saw expressions of quite a few others it wasn't for either. It seems to me if those people were saying something -- in either language -- to someone specifically, God is more than capable of getting them to say that to the person he wants it said to. Otherwise, it's just a space-filler, at best.

 

[atwhatcost]

People love to be entertained, in this day and age it is all about pleasing ourselves, we want to see bigger better things, never satisfied and craving more with our technology.

This means the church is ripe for picking by demons, they give a few people an exciting ministry where the preacher will just wave an arm and stuff happens, we see it with Benny Hinn, slain in the spirit aparently, then people get bored with that, they want more, so we have so called Holy Laughter and other experiences, people get bored with that as well and it becomes so yesterday.

Satan has to move with the times, so we have more exciting stuff coming into the church, in past few years it has been fire ministry made famous by Todd Bentley, yet again a touch or wave of the hand will have people burning in a spiritual fire resulting in running around and screaming out in pain, much more entertaining then just falling down.


Our church is independent in nature, we are penticostal/charasmatic, we are 100% guided by God, we have very good worship team, excellent preachers, couple of people who are gifted in giving messages from God in tongues which are then interpreted by a couple of other people who have that gifting. This happens a couple of times a year at most.

We do not restrict Holy Spirit and obey God, pastor and leadership are held accountable by committee of elders and deacons, we are growing and seeing amazing things happen.

We are not perfect, no church is, but one thing we have never had is people rolling around on the floor, people being slain in the manor you expect, I only know of one case of this happening in our church and that was a discreet event which resulted in healing of an elderly woman, all done with no fuss half the congregation did not even know it happened, we do not have the whole congregation babbling away and all this other stuff that goes on.

This convinces me that all these things you see going on are not as a result of Holy Spirit, but demonic spirits, however that is not to say everything is wrong, you do not counterfeit a $49 bill. Satan takes what is good and corrupts it.

Just curious. You called me "foolish arrogance" for asking about demons. Shouldn't even be talking about them, kind of feel. So, why isn't it foolish arrogance when you talk about them -- a lot?

 

[JesusistheChrist]

I have no problem with lively worship - I love that about our church. The sermons are about 45 minutes, they are Biblical and always encouraging but they have very little in the way of delving deeper into the Bible and the "meaty" stuff if you get my drift. I love enthusiastic worship and I think I would miss that if I changed churches but I am considering is because I cannot take the weird stuff. I do believe in the gifts of the spirit but I do not believe that it is always truly of the spirit in everyone displaying it.

Just remember that "the spirit" must be the HOLY Spirit and He's not called the HOLY Spirit for nothing. IOW, one of His primary purposes is in enabling us to be holy as God is Holy even as we're instructed to be in both the Old and New Testaments alike. What is "Holy" about somebody rolling around on the floor and laughing their head off? What is "Holy" about somebody running around and flapping their arms as if they were a bird and all sorts of other crazy manifestations of whatever "spirit" truly is at work in many of these places? Again, I don't deny that there are truly gifts or workings of the Spirit in operation today, but I totally believe that much of what transpires within these circles is the fruit of any "spirit" other than the Holy Spirit.

 

[kaylagrl]

It kind of seems that in part it's a sign-based belief system. "Show me a sign so I can believe". And then when you hear about or see people doing bizarre things it makes the casual observer think that perhaps this isn't of the Lord. I've thought that many times (based on what I've seen on TV) but to be honest I have no personal experience with the Charismatic movement. I'd like to learn more just to understand what these folks think about things like works-based salvation vs faith-based salvation and whether they believe they must be physically "touched" by the Holy Spirit in a personal way in order to be saved.

As a part of the AofG we do not believe you must speak in tongues to be saved. We do not believe in works based salvation but do believe we are created for good works in Christ.The Oneness or Holiness pentecostals are the ones that believe you must speak in tongues to be saved.

 

[atwhatcost]

The point is for YOU. For you to enter into the mode of wanting to let Him know everything you are.

Why do you pray..... He already knows what you are going to pray about.

Why are we "tested"? God already knows the outcome. It is for US.

(I'm going to get this yet. It seems important.)

One thing I have learned in all my years is that all the effort we expend to "know" God through WHATEVER "performance" methods we employ, Liberal OR Conservative, will do little but frustrate us in the long-run.

The Bible does not stress US knowing God, but God knowing us.

Our small, limited knowledge of God can be likened to a ship sunk in the depths of the ocean. We're the ship and God is the ocean. We are in the vastness of God, but not all of God is in us. The ocean is sometimes miles deep, and is multiple thousands and thousands of miles in scope. But all we can know of all that expanse of ocean is the tiny amount of water contained inside that little sunken ship.

Don't kill yourself (and your relationships) trying to "know" God, but simply be open to Him, and just let Him know you.

So, God knows me fully, but I don't have to try to know him as fully as humanly possible? What's the point of having a Bible if God doesn't want us to know him fuller? How do I know that's him telling me something, if I don't know his voice from your voice? How do I press in if I don't know who I'm pressing into? I may never know if I'm a rowboat or an aircraft carrier, but I really need to know which direction I'm going or I'll end up in the wrong ocean.

(See where I'm lost yet? And you were confused by uncomfortable. lol)

 

[atwhatcost]

As a part of the AofG we do not believe you must speak in tongues to be saved. We do not believe in works based salvation but do believe we are created for good works in Christ.The Oneness or Holiness pentecostals are the ones that believe you must speak in tongues to be saved.

Yeah, but tongues aren't the only sign being seen.

 

[kaylagrl]

That nuttiness that you described sounds just like the first church that I attended for about 5 years when I first got saved about 27 years ago. Things got so bad there that they actually removed the first 5 rows of pews just so people could roll around on the floor laughing their heads off. Needless to say, I didn't find it the least bit funny and I tried to help to fix the problem (s) from within for a few years. Finally, the Lord told me to get out and I never looked back.

Luckily for us the pastor moved off for a bigger city church.It split the church and it was nasty.But I understand what you mean.These people would laugh and laugh and our side was stone faced.If it wasnt so sad it would have been funny.I can imagine a stranger coming in seeing half the people laughing and rolling on the floor like drunken sailors and the other side straight faced as Puritans and definitely not amused! When the pastor left he took his crazy crowd with him.Such a relief!!

 

[kaylagrl]

Yeah, but tongues aren't the only sign being seen.

Can you elaborate on that?

 

[kaylagrl]

One thing I have learned from this thread is that there is a huge range of Charismatic churches and from some of the things read here it would seem that mine is one of the more reserved ones!

Lol,yes not so bad now that you know.As I said there was a time when they were praying for gold in their teeth.Then they claimed they were seeing feathers falling from the rafters,angel wings of course. They were "miracles"...ya no! Crazy,crazy stuff. And I could tell you more! lol

 

[mpaper345]

I believe some things people do in Church is not inspired by God,and God does not require it,like falling backwards,or rolling on the ground,or handling snakes and saying I will not be hurt,which Jesus said do not tempt the LORD thy God,which means do not put yourself in a dangerous position on purpose and then saying God save me,and other things like that.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Luckily for us the pastor moved off for a bigger city church.It split the church and it was nasty.But I understand what you mean.These people would laugh and laugh and our side was stone faced.If it wasnt so sad it would have been funny.I can imagine a stranger coming in seeing half the people laughing and rolling on the floor like drunken sailors and the other side straight faced as Puritans and definitely not amused! When the pastor left he took his crazy crowd with him.Such a relief!!

At the church that I used to attend, my own mother and sister got swept away in all of the craziness. One lady, a so-called evangelist, showed up one night and not only started praying for everybody to be filled with "holy laughter", but she also encouraged everybody to "throw their family members into this river"...and my own mother got up and said, "I THROW MY WHOLE FAMILY INTO THE RIVER!". I was like, "Dudette, don't be throwing me in no stinking river. That's what the people were instructed to do in the time of Moses' birth to kill the male babies!" Anyhow, I left that craziness, not that I was ever truly a part of it to begin with, more than 20 years ago and I've never looked back once since.

 

[erikanutella]

I can say that ... If this how they glorify the Lord .. Don't mind them .. instead mind your own worship to the Lord
close you eyes and Praise Him the way you wanted .. Do not let them caught your attention

We cannot stop others in their ways of worshipping its either fake or not its their problem not yours
Remember we will be judge in the last day according to what we have done

What kind of Worship Pleases the Lord?
in John 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers".

 

[Willie-T]

(I'm going to get this yet. It seems important.)


So, God knows me fully, but I don't have to try to know him as fully as humanly possible? What's the point of having a Bible if God doesn't want us to know him fuller? How do I know that's him telling me something, if I don't know his voice from your voice? How do I press in if I don't know who I'm pressing into? I may never know if I'm a rowboat or an aircraft carrier, but I really need to know which direction I'm going or I'll end up in the wrong ocean.

(See where I'm lost yet? And you were confused by uncomfortable. lol)

You have just, basically, said that if a person lacks the intellectual magnitude to fathom all the Bible, they are in trouble. (even though you didn't MEAN to say that) If you "know" more than me, or if I "know" more than you, or if we both know more than a mentally disabled person who can't even read the Bible to discover this "God" we say we know.... what do you believe that means? I think it means next to nothing.

I think the disabled girl probably may "know" more of God than us simply because she asks God if He sees her.

It is not about us learning God (for whatever reason), but Him knowing us. Remember the verse...."But, but, GOD! Didn't we study and "know" all about you, and then begin to do all sorts of cool things in your name?" And what did He say? "I never knew you."

 

[Willie-T]

At the church that I used to attend, my own mother and sister got swept away in all of the craziness. One lady, a so-called evangelist, showed up one night and not only started praying for everybody to be filled with "holy laughter", but she also encouraged everybody to "throw their family members into this river"...and my own mother got up and said, "I THROW MY WHOLE FAMILY INTO THE RIVER!". I was like, "Dudette, don't be throwing me in no stinking river. That's what the people were instructed to do in the time of Moses' birth to kill the male babies!" Anyhow, I left that craziness, not that I was ever truly a part of it to begin with, more than 20 years ago and I've never looked back once since.

It's interesting how you saw "kill", and I saw "baptism."

 

[JesusistheChrist]

It's interesting how you saw "kill", and I saw "baptism."

People who were killed were thrown in the river whereas those who were baptized came willingly.

 

[shotgunner]

Just remember that "the spirit" must be the HOLY Spirit and He's not called the HOLY Spirit for nothing. IOW, one of His primary purposes is in enabling us to be holy as God is Holy even as we're instructed to be in both the Old and New Testaments alike. What is "Holy" about somebody rolling around on the floor and laughing their head off? What is "Holy" about somebody running around and flapping their arms as if they were a bird and all sorts of other crazy manifestations of whatever "spirit" truly is at work in many of these places? Again, I don't deny that there are truly gifts or workings of the Spirit in operation today, but I totally believe that much of what transpires within these circles is the fruit of any "spirit" other than the Holy Spirit.

Have you personally seen what you are talking about? I've been in several Charismatic churches and have never seen what you are talking about. I've seen people standing with their hands raised to God, praying in tongues, with tears streaming down their eyes. I've seen people get up and run a lap around the church. I've seen many people at the same time in the alter, some on their knees, some praying for each other, some laying down crying, or even laughing. I've never seen anything that seemed in genuine.

Possible some of the things you listed are fleshly. That however does not mean that anyone who does anything except sit quietly, is in the flesh.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Have you personally seen what you are talking about? I've been in several Charismatic churches and have never seen what you are talking about. I've seen people standing with their hands raised to God, praying in tongues, with tears streaming down their eyes. I've seen people get up and run a lap around the church. I've seen many people at the same time in the alter, some on their knees, some praying for each other, some laying down crying, or even laughing. I've never seen anything that seemed in genuine.

Possible some of the things you listed are fleshly. That however does not mean that anyone who does anything except sit quietly, is in the flesh.

Yes, I personally saw those types of things many times. In fact, more times than I care to remember. Again, I'm not denying that there are genuine manifestations of the Holy Spirits in operation today as well and I'm certainly not a cessationist. In fact, I've personally been blessed through different gifts of the Spirit throughout my own Christian life.

 

[shotgunner]

Yes, I personally saw those types of things many times. In fact, more times than I care to remember. Again, I'm not denying that there are genuine manifestations of the Holy Spirits in operation today as well and I'm certainly not a cessationist. In fact, I've personally been blessed through different gifts of the Spirit throughout my own Christian life.

Sounds like you might have had a pastor there who was afraid of confrontation. Chances are that if the things you say bothered you, it bothered someone else, and might be a leading of the Spirit. At least, if you were not a novice in seeing people worship in different ways. Of coarse nearly anything would seem strange to someone only accustomed to three songs from the red book.