After drinking old wine, no one wants the new. They say, ‘The old wine is better.’
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+5&version=nirv
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+5&version=nirv
Christianity Started
- Thread starter Billyd
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Hello Trail-of-Truth,
Careful! Paul said the CERTIFICATE OF DEBT (Gr. "cheirographon", Col. 2:14) is cancelled....NOT the Torah itself.
The Torah is NOT a "cheirographon".
AND, Paul said we should KEEP God's commands (1 Cor. 7:19), NOT pretend that they are "nailed to the cross".
Where are God's commands found? The written Torah of Moses (1 Ki. 2:3).
Paul took a vow to prove he obeyed Torah (even the infant circumcision Torah, Ac. 21), so he obviously did NOT think it was "nailed to the cross".
Let's be careful to interpret Paul consistently!
We can't just pick-and-choose select Pauline Scriptures while neglecting others...
blessings...
BibleGuy
Careful! Paul said the CERTIFICATE OF DEBT (Gr. "cheirographon", Col. 2:14) is cancelled....NOT the Torah itself.
The Torah is NOT a "cheirographon".
AND, Paul said we should KEEP God's commands (1 Cor. 7:19), NOT pretend that they are "nailed to the cross".
Where are God's commands found? The written Torah of Moses (1 Ki. 2:3).
Paul took a vow to prove he obeyed Torah (even the infant circumcision Torah, Ac. 21), so he obviously did NOT think it was "nailed to the cross".
Let's be careful to interpret Paul consistently!
We can't just pick-and-choose select Pauline Scriptures while neglecting others...
blessings...
BibleGuy
Hello Trail-of-Truth,
Romans 7:7 ---> Paul taught that sin is Torah-disobedience.
Romans 6:15 ---> Paul taught that we should not sin.
CONCLUSION: Paul taught we should not disobey Torah. Therefore, Paul taught we should obey Torah!
Now then, the very author (Paul) and book (Romans) has brought us to a conclusion which contradicts your position.
We can't just interpret Romans 7 out of context, and then ignore things like Paul's view of sin (as I've shown).
So, how do you resolve this contradiction in your interpretation of Pauline Scripture?
blessings...
BibleGuy
Romans 7:7 ---> Paul taught that sin is Torah-disobedience.
Romans 6:15 ---> Paul taught that we should not sin.
CONCLUSION: Paul taught we should not disobey Torah. Therefore, Paul taught we should obey Torah!
Now then, the very author (Paul) and book (Romans) has brought us to a conclusion which contradicts your position.
We can't just interpret Romans 7 out of context, and then ignore things like Paul's view of sin (as I've shown).
So, how do you resolve this contradiction in your interpretation of Pauline Scripture?
blessings...
BibleGuy
God used Pentecost, not to perpetuate the law, but because Jews from all over the world would be gathered there, where the promise Holy Spirited was poured out upon the apostles to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ. It was a time of transformation from the law to salvation by grace through faith apart from the works of the law. As Paul stated:
"Why, then, was the law given? It was given alongside the promise to show people their sins. But the law was designed to last only until the coming of the child who was promised."
"Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith."
Before Christ came, the law was required to be kept along side of faith. As Jesus himself said, he came to fulfill the law, i.e. to meet its righteous requirements fully and completely, not to perpetuate it, but to bring it to its end and that on our behalf. Now, our salvation is through faith in the One who alone paid the penalty for our sins. Consequently, anyone who trusts in the works of the law as a requirement for salvation, is not trusting in the One who already provided it, Jesus Christ. Anyone who is trusting in anything else other than Christ will not enter into the kingdom of God.
I like that, and a few verses later in Colossians
16 So don’t let anyone judge you because of what you eat or drink. Don’t let anyone judge you about holy days. I’m talking about special feasts and New Moons and Sabbath days. 17 They are only a shadow of the things to come. But what is real is found in Christ
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=col+2&version=nirv
16 So don’t let anyone judge you because of what you eat or drink. Don’t let anyone judge you about holy days. I’m talking about special feasts and New Moons and Sabbath days. 17 They are only a shadow of the things to come. But what is real is found in Christ
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=col+2&version=nirv
Hello Ahwatukee,
You wrote: "God used Pentecost, not to perpetuate the law..."
My response: Then why is TORAH (Jer. 31:33) transferred directly into the New Covenant?
Because we should OBEY it! Torah is written upon our hearts, as the Spirit testifies (Heb. 10:15-16). Should we OBEY this Torah? Paul says YES (applying Dt. 30:14 to YOU in Rom. 10:8).
Thus, Paul took a vow to prove he "walked orderly in obedience to the law", even teaching Jewish believers to circumcise their infant males (Ac. 21). We should imitate Paul (1 Cor. 11:1; Php. 4:9).
Therefore, the law CONTINUES!
Jesus said we LIVE by Torah (Mt. 4:4)....he never said it no longer applies.
Jesus said Torah-obedience is sufficient for eternal life (Lk. 10:25-28).
Jesus taught OBEDIENCE to Torah (Mt. 23:23), even sending Torah-teachers (Gr. "grammateus", Mt. 23:34) to represent His Torah-obedient Torah-teaching ministry. We should IMITATE this walk of Torah-obedience as His disciples (Lk. 6:40; 1 Jn. 2:6).
Jesus COMMANDS us to teach these Torah-obedient teachings to disciples of all nations (Mt. 28:20).
So let's stop pretending the law no longer applies!
The Scriptures do NOT say that the law is terminated when Jesus comes.
Remember, the SAME PAUL you are quoting took a vow to prove TORAH STILL APPLIES (Ac. 21).
So let's stop pretending that Paul opposes Torah-obedience...when he PLAINLY told us to KEEP (not ignore!) God's commands (1 Cor. 7:19).
Moreover, Paul said we SHOULD judge (through shaming and admonishing, 2 Th. 3) those people who do not keep the traditions passed on by Paul...thus we MUST keep Passover (1 Cor. 5), just as Paul commands.
So let's not pretend that people are not allowed to "judge" what Paul commands that we judge!
You wrote: "As Jesus himself said, he came to fulfill the law, i.e. to meet its righteous requirements fully and completely, not to perpetuate it, but to bring it to its end and that on our behalf."
My response: Not sure what "Jesus" you are reading about...
"FULFILL" does not mean "REPLACE"...you can fulfill your covenant of marriage on a continuous ongoing basis...but does this mean you have TERMINATED that covenant? Of course not!
The Jesus of Mk. 7 is ANGRY at religious people who use man-made traditions as an excuse to DISOBEY Torah.
The Jesus of Mt. 22:37 applies Dt. 6 to YOU! What does Dt. 6 say? Obey ALL Torah (Dt. 6:25).
The Jesus of Mt. 7:21-23 casts away religious people who exemplify Torah-lessness (lawlessness, Gr. "anomia").
The Jesus of Mt. 13:41-42 warns of a horrible fate awaiting those who cause Torah-lessness.
The Jesus of Mt. 5:19 says our Torah-teaching and Torah-obedience DETERMINES our position in the forthcoming kingdom of God.
The Jesus of Mal. 3:1-4 comes to RESTORE the Levitical sacrificial system so that the offering will be again pleasing to YHVH as in the days of old as in former years.
The Jesus of Mt. 5:17 says that the Prophets are NOT abolished.
The Jesus of Zec. 6 comes to REBUILD the temple...and guess what happens in the temple? TORAH! Yes, even Levitical Torah, just as it is prophesied to occur in the future (Dt. 30:1-8; Zec. 14; Eze. 40-47; Is. 66; Jer. 33; Mal. 3).
Do you now stand opposed to the prophets?
Yikes! Please engage this Scriptural evidence....
Was Dt. 30:1-8 fulfilled yet? NO! Therefore, 100% Torah-obedience WILL return, as Moses prophesied, when we repent and turn to YHVH as Moses predicted.
Sure, Jesus ALONE paid for our sins...but that's no excuse to disobey God's instructions for us.
Sure, we are saved by grace through faith, NOT merely by works of the law. But that's no excuse to ignore God's commands!
You wrote: "Anyone who is trusting in anything else other than Christ will not enter into the kingdom of God."
My response: Of course we should trust in Christ.
BUT! Let's talk about that KINGDOM. Mt. 5:19 ---> If you disobey even the least of those commands, and teach others to do the same, then you will be called LEAST in the kingdom of heaven.
Why would you encourage people to disobey what Jesus says WE SHOULD OBEY?
Please defend your position in light of these Scriptural objections...
Thank you....
best....
BibleGuy
You wrote: "God used Pentecost, not to perpetuate the law..."
My response: Then why is TORAH (Jer. 31:33) transferred directly into the New Covenant?
Because we should OBEY it! Torah is written upon our hearts, as the Spirit testifies (Heb. 10:15-16). Should we OBEY this Torah? Paul says YES (applying Dt. 30:14 to YOU in Rom. 10:8).
Thus, Paul took a vow to prove he "walked orderly in obedience to the law", even teaching Jewish believers to circumcise their infant males (Ac. 21). We should imitate Paul (1 Cor. 11:1; Php. 4:9).
Therefore, the law CONTINUES!
Jesus said we LIVE by Torah (Mt. 4:4)....he never said it no longer applies.
Jesus said Torah-obedience is sufficient for eternal life (Lk. 10:25-28).
Jesus taught OBEDIENCE to Torah (Mt. 23:23), even sending Torah-teachers (Gr. "grammateus", Mt. 23:34) to represent His Torah-obedient Torah-teaching ministry. We should IMITATE this walk of Torah-obedience as His disciples (Lk. 6:40; 1 Jn. 2:6).
Jesus COMMANDS us to teach these Torah-obedient teachings to disciples of all nations (Mt. 28:20).
So let's stop pretending the law no longer applies!
The Scriptures do NOT say that the law is terminated when Jesus comes.
Remember, the SAME PAUL you are quoting took a vow to prove TORAH STILL APPLIES (Ac. 21).
So let's stop pretending that Paul opposes Torah-obedience...when he PLAINLY told us to KEEP (not ignore!) God's commands (1 Cor. 7:19).
Moreover, Paul said we SHOULD judge (through shaming and admonishing, 2 Th. 3) those people who do not keep the traditions passed on by Paul...thus we MUST keep Passover (1 Cor. 5), just as Paul commands.
So let's not pretend that people are not allowed to "judge" what Paul commands that we judge!
You wrote: "As Jesus himself said, he came to fulfill the law, i.e. to meet its righteous requirements fully and completely, not to perpetuate it, but to bring it to its end and that on our behalf."
My response: Not sure what "Jesus" you are reading about...
"FULFILL" does not mean "REPLACE"...you can fulfill your covenant of marriage on a continuous ongoing basis...but does this mean you have TERMINATED that covenant? Of course not!
The Jesus of Mk. 7 is ANGRY at religious people who use man-made traditions as an excuse to DISOBEY Torah.
The Jesus of Mt. 22:37 applies Dt. 6 to YOU! What does Dt. 6 say? Obey ALL Torah (Dt. 6:25).
The Jesus of Mt. 7:21-23 casts away religious people who exemplify Torah-lessness (lawlessness, Gr. "anomia").
The Jesus of Mt. 13:41-42 warns of a horrible fate awaiting those who cause Torah-lessness.
The Jesus of Mt. 5:19 says our Torah-teaching and Torah-obedience DETERMINES our position in the forthcoming kingdom of God.
The Jesus of Mal. 3:1-4 comes to RESTORE the Levitical sacrificial system so that the offering will be again pleasing to YHVH as in the days of old as in former years.
The Jesus of Mt. 5:17 says that the Prophets are NOT abolished.
The Jesus of Zec. 6 comes to REBUILD the temple...and guess what happens in the temple? TORAH! Yes, even Levitical Torah, just as it is prophesied to occur in the future (Dt. 30:1-8; Zec. 14; Eze. 40-47; Is. 66; Jer. 33; Mal. 3).
Do you now stand opposed to the prophets?
Yikes! Please engage this Scriptural evidence....
Was Dt. 30:1-8 fulfilled yet? NO! Therefore, 100% Torah-obedience WILL return, as Moses prophesied, when we repent and turn to YHVH as Moses predicted.
Sure, Jesus ALONE paid for our sins...but that's no excuse to disobey God's instructions for us.
Sure, we are saved by grace through faith, NOT merely by works of the law. But that's no excuse to ignore God's commands!
You wrote: "Anyone who is trusting in anything else other than Christ will not enter into the kingdom of God."
My response: Of course we should trust in Christ.
BUT! Let's talk about that KINGDOM. Mt. 5:19 ---> If you disobey even the least of those commands, and teach others to do the same, then you will be called LEAST in the kingdom of heaven.
Why would you encourage people to disobey what Jesus says WE SHOULD OBEY?
Please defend your position in light of these Scriptural objections...
Thank you....
best....
BibleGuy
Last edited:
T
Hi BibleGuy.
I believe your emphasis on obeying the Torah is seriously in error.
While the "challenge" remains for any individual wishing to try to gain righteousness through the Law (all of Levitical law), it has not passed away, the sacrifice Jesus made on the cross now allows us to seek righteousness in God by grace through faith.
I absolutely know which route I would choose.
If your emphasis on obeying the Torah is correct then that means ALL of it needs to be obeyed.
You would obliged to continue animal sacrifice as atonement for sins.
You would be obliged to respect every dietary restriction.
I could go on and on...
I would be confident in asserting that you have never performed an animal sacrifice in your life...
But wait a minute, it would not matter anyway, it would not be acceptable unless the person offering the sacrifice to God was of priestly lineage...
How do you account for the visions that Peter had in Acts (you can look this up yourself) telling him to eat unclean animals?
How about the debate regarding circumcision? The conclusion was that circumcision is NOT required for believers in Christ. (Again you can follow all of this through Acts, Romans and Galatians).
The whole system of Levitical law was given for several reasons.
The two prime reasons were this:
To demonstrate the extremely high standards that God demands for righteousness; and
To clearly demonstrate that righteousness through the Law is unattainable and that the only true response we can manifest before God is to humble ourselves before him and trust in his mercy and grace. Paul, in particular stresses that without the law then we would not know what sin was. Knowledge of sin in the world that we live automatically condemns us before the Law since we have all transgressed that Law.
The Law itself is holy, righteous, and just.
However all the Law can achieve is to condemn us.
So, in summary the whole point of the Law was to demonstrate the utter futility of human beings presenting themselves righteous before God based on our own efforts.
So, if we are found righteous before God being justified on the basis of the blood of Jesus then to depend on anything else for our righteousness is to nullify what Jesus did on the cross. (I have pretty much paraphrased several verses from Romans and Galatians here.)
Now, lets move on and look at our behaviour as Christians.
Are we freed from the constraints of Levitical law?
Absolutely!
Does that mean we are free to rape and pillage, and generally carry on as we please?
No!
How does one square this apparent contradiction.
Very simply:
In Christ we are not under the Law (Levitical law) but rather under a different law that is NOT codified.
Paul articulates this several times, most completely in Romans and Galatians, but elsewhere as well.
As Christians we are NOT motivated by the demands of the Law, rather our behaviour is motivated by our love for God and our desire to serve Him. Frankly, any system of codified law is a distraction in this context. Instead I desire to serve God in ways that could never be legislated.
Simply put any law enacts minimum standards for behaviour and can only define what is transgression and what is not. Our love for God means that we desire far higher in the service of God than anything that could be legislated.
Consider this: Is it possible to legislate love?
From a human perspective I believe the answer is a resounding no.
There are many Scriptural summary statements of the Law that go something like this: Love God (with all your soul), and love your neighbour as yourself.
From a human perspective it is possible to completely ignore these injunctions and yet not visibly transgress any law - levitical or no.
Only God can know what our outward behaviour really means.
As Christians our goal in life is to love God, to worship God, and to serve God. In reality neither of these three can be separated from any of the others.
Striving to keep the Law (Levitical) under these circumstances is not just a form of spiritual poverty, but spiritual death.
You may wonder why I have not added liberal Scriptural quotations to back my arguments.
Simply put, single verse quotations just do no justice to the argument.
It is very easy to misinterpret single verse quotations but my points requires understanding, in the first instance, of the whole book of Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, and Hebrews, and more broadly the whole Bible.
I would confidently state that a good understanding of Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, and Hebrews would forever squash any reliance on codified Levitical law for either justification or sanctification.
As Christians we are simply not under the law of sin and death but rather committed to the law of love and grace.
I believe your emphasis on obeying the Torah is seriously in error.
While the "challenge" remains for any individual wishing to try to gain righteousness through the Law (all of Levitical law), it has not passed away, the sacrifice Jesus made on the cross now allows us to seek righteousness in God by grace through faith.
I absolutely know which route I would choose.
If your emphasis on obeying the Torah is correct then that means ALL of it needs to be obeyed.
You would obliged to continue animal sacrifice as atonement for sins.
You would be obliged to respect every dietary restriction.
I could go on and on...
I would be confident in asserting that you have never performed an animal sacrifice in your life...
But wait a minute, it would not matter anyway, it would not be acceptable unless the person offering the sacrifice to God was of priestly lineage...
How do you account for the visions that Peter had in Acts (you can look this up yourself) telling him to eat unclean animals?
How about the debate regarding circumcision? The conclusion was that circumcision is NOT required for believers in Christ. (Again you can follow all of this through Acts, Romans and Galatians).
The whole system of Levitical law was given for several reasons.
The two prime reasons were this:
To demonstrate the extremely high standards that God demands for righteousness; and
To clearly demonstrate that righteousness through the Law is unattainable and that the only true response we can manifest before God is to humble ourselves before him and trust in his mercy and grace. Paul, in particular stresses that without the law then we would not know what sin was. Knowledge of sin in the world that we live automatically condemns us before the Law since we have all transgressed that Law.
The Law itself is holy, righteous, and just.
However all the Law can achieve is to condemn us.
So, in summary the whole point of the Law was to demonstrate the utter futility of human beings presenting themselves righteous before God based on our own efforts.
So, if we are found righteous before God being justified on the basis of the blood of Jesus then to depend on anything else for our righteousness is to nullify what Jesus did on the cross. (I have pretty much paraphrased several verses from Romans and Galatians here.)
Now, lets move on and look at our behaviour as Christians.
Are we freed from the constraints of Levitical law?
Absolutely!
Does that mean we are free to rape and pillage, and generally carry on as we please?
No!
How does one square this apparent contradiction.
Very simply:
In Christ we are not under the Law (Levitical law) but rather under a different law that is NOT codified.
Paul articulates this several times, most completely in Romans and Galatians, but elsewhere as well.
As Christians we are NOT motivated by the demands of the Law, rather our behaviour is motivated by our love for God and our desire to serve Him. Frankly, any system of codified law is a distraction in this context. Instead I desire to serve God in ways that could never be legislated.
Simply put any law enacts minimum standards for behaviour and can only define what is transgression and what is not. Our love for God means that we desire far higher in the service of God than anything that could be legislated.
Consider this: Is it possible to legislate love?
From a human perspective I believe the answer is a resounding no.
There are many Scriptural summary statements of the Law that go something like this: Love God (with all your soul), and love your neighbour as yourself.
From a human perspective it is possible to completely ignore these injunctions and yet not visibly transgress any law - levitical or no.
Only God can know what our outward behaviour really means.
As Christians our goal in life is to love God, to worship God, and to serve God. In reality neither of these three can be separated from any of the others.
Striving to keep the Law (Levitical) under these circumstances is not just a form of spiritual poverty, but spiritual death.
You may wonder why I have not added liberal Scriptural quotations to back my arguments.
Simply put, single verse quotations just do no justice to the argument.
It is very easy to misinterpret single verse quotations but my points requires understanding, in the first instance, of the whole book of Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, and Hebrews, and more broadly the whole Bible.
I would confidently state that a good understanding of Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, and Hebrews would forever squash any reliance on codified Levitical law for either justification or sanctification.
As Christians we are simply not under the law of sin and death but rather committed to the law of love and grace.
J
[SUP]14 [/SUP]What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? [SUP]15 [/SUP]Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. [SUP]16 [/SUP]If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? [SUP]17 [/SUP]In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. [SUP]19 [/SUP]You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[SUP][d][/SUP]? [SUP]21 [/SUP]Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? [SUP]22 [/SUP]You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. [SUP]23 [/SUP]And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[SUP][e][/SUP] and he was called God’s friend. [SUP]24 [/SUP]You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? [SUP]26 [/SUP]As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. [SUP]19 [/SUP]You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[SUP][d][/SUP]? [SUP]21 [/SUP]Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? [SUP]22 [/SUP]You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. [SUP]23 [/SUP]And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[SUP][e][/SUP] and he was called God’s friend. [SUP]24 [/SUP]You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? [SUP]26 [/SUP]As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
It's location (stone vs heart) makes a world of difference...same Torah, ministered differently.
And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
(2Co 3:3)
Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses' face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory?
(2Co 3:7-8)
And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
(2Co 3:3)
Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses' face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory?
(2Co 3:7-8)
Last edited: