CHURCH BEFORE PAUL

[eternally-gratefull]

Where's your proof it didn't ....


Mat 11:16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,

Mat 11:17 And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.

Mat 11:18 KJV) For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.

Mat 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

Where's your proof that "The Son of man came eating and drinking"??

Keep on piping...

Well since you have no proof (something that great would definitely have been seen around the world)

I will go with another interpretation.

1. When you see the armies (plural) surround Jerusalem (see also Daniel which speak of several armies surrounding the city in the last days)
2. When you see the abomination of desolation STANDING in the Holy place (did not occur in 70 AD)
3. Run to the mountains (both OT prophets and revelations speak of god protecting his people on the mountains of Isreal. While the beast tries to attack her, but fails, so he goes after her offspring)
4. For then their will be great tribulation such as never been, before or after (nothing like this occurred in the 1st century,, ww1 and ww2 alone made anything which occurred in the 1st century look like a picnic)
5. at the end of that tribulation, Thing will be so severe, that if Christ did not return, ALL FLESH WOULD SURVIVE (not even a possibility in the first century)
6. At that time, Christ will return, put an end to the armies, Whoever endures will be saved, And he will set up his kingdom.
7. Then (not in the first century) the angel will go to the four corners of the earth and call the elect.

so. Unless you can show some proof. I can just assume the reason you have non is it has not yet occured. and continue to believe the way I do.

but if you have proof. then please. do share (prophesy is useless to God if it can not be proven it came true)

 

[Desertsrose]

Good post I've read it was more like 4 years after though anywhere within five years is probably affirmative.

Hi Beyond,

I was being generous. LOL

If Jesus died in 33 AD then, it was only a year later that Paul met Jesus on the road to Damascus and was saved.

If interested, here's a timeline I got from Blue Letter Bible. https://www.blueletterbible.org/study/paul/timeline.cfm

 

[BeyondET]

i read that it said Jesus died 30AD and Paul on the road was at 34AD

 

[BeyondET]

http://https://www.blueletterbible.org/study/paul/timeline.cfm

 

[Desertsrose]

Where's your proof it didn't ....


Mat 11:16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,

Mat 11:17 And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.

Mat 11:18 KJV) For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.

Mat 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

Where's your proof that "The Son of man came eating and drinking"??

Keep on piping...

Hi Locutus,

Actually the proof would be on you. You would need to prove something happened, not the other way around. No offense meant.


Acts 1:9-11
And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”

I don't recall that any of the apostles mentioned this happening in 70 AD. In fact, Paul and John and others mentioned Jesus's return as being sometime in the future. John wrote Revelation after 70 AD.

 

[BeyondET]

I wasn't trying to say I disagree or anything just the opposite I was agreeing with you. though exact correct dates can't really be known ballpark numbers are about it.

 

[Desertsrose]

i read that it said Jesus died 30AD and Paul on the road was at 34AD

Yeah, it could have been 4 years, but I was going by what I was taught when I did a study. The study said Jesus began His ministry in 30 AD and died in 33 AD. But maybe that was wrong. I'm curious now to see what others say. But even 4 years would be sooner than what Samuel implied as "years later."

 

[BeyondET]

Yeah, it could have been 4 years, but I was going by what I was taught when I did a study. The study said Jesus began His ministry in 30 AD and died in 33 AD. But maybe that was wrong. I'm curious now to see what others say. But even 4 years would be sooner than what Samuel implied as "years later."

Well years later could mean 2 or 4 or 40, I gues it comes down to how long years later means to a person, one year later wouldn't be so. I've read scholar pieces on the topic some not even scholars just historians most though place the birth of Christ round 4BC to 2 BC. From the historian archives and some scholars say King Herod died 4BC. It's a numbers game when trying to dial in that far back with records of today. But there are some orginal Roman archives out there. One thing the Romans were the utmost about was record keeping.

 

[Desertsrose]

Well years later could mean 2 or 4 or 40, I gues it comes down to how long years later means to a person, one year later wouldn't be so. I've read scholar pieces on the topic some not even scholars just historians most though place the birth of Christ round 4BC to 2 BC. From the historian archives and some scholars say King Herod died 4BC. It's a numbers game when trying to dial in that far back with records of today. But there are some orginal Roman archives out there. One thing the Romans were the utmost about was record keeping.

Well I guess it can be subjective. Usually people will use a couple years later or a few years later with few meaning a small amount.

When I read someone say years later I'm assuming the writer means more than two and more than a few (small amount) because we have words that help with our description as to how many. It's how I was taught to differentiate about amounts in high school. I assume everyone thinks like I do. Hahah!

 

[BeyondET]

Well I guess it can be subjective. Usually people will use a couple years later or a few years later with few meaning a small amount.

When I read someone say years later I'm assuming the writer means more than two and more than a few (small amount) because we have words that help with our description as to how many. It's how I was taught to differentiate about amounts in high school. I assume everyone thinks like I do. Hahah!

Hahaha yea these words "years later" sure do pin point it down. lol.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I would have to disagree, as we have plenty scripture. And if people would just put the pieces of the puzzle together, like I and others have, then everyone would come to the same conclusion. Here are the facts to consider:

"In My Father's house there are many mansions. And if not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will receive you to Myself, that where I am, you may be also."

Now, according to the scripture above, Jesus told his disciples, which includes all believers, that there were many rooms in his Father's house, the Father's house being heaven. He then said he was going to prepare those places for us and that He was going to come back and gather us, so that where Jesus is we could be with him, which would be at the Father's house.

In relation to the above promise, we have the words of the Lord given to Paul regarding the promise above:

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."

The scripture above in 1 Thes.4:16-18 is a detailed account of the promise in John 14:1-3 listed above. Therefore, when the dead are resurrected and the living are transformed into those immortal and glorified bodies where we meet the Lord in the air, according to John 14:1-3 Jesus is going to take us back to the Father's house.

When you interpret the gathering of the church as taking place when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, there would be no time for believers to go to the Father's house and that because at that time Jesus will be returning to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.

In addition to this--and which I continue to make known--is that Rev.19:11-21 is a detailed account of the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. As the Lord is returning to the earth riding on a white horse, the armies of heaven are seen following him out of heaven, said army being those who will have previously been resurrected and transformed as described in 1 Thes.4:18-18. We know that those riding on white horse are the church, the Lord's bride, because while in heaven and prior to following the Lord out, the bride is given the fine linen, white and clean that she is seen wearing while riding on those white horses (Rev.19:6-8).

As further proof that these on white horses are the church who will have previously been resurrected and caught up, Rev.17:14 says that when Jesus returns he will be accompanied by his called, chosen and faithful followers. This is not a designation referring to angels, for those of you who would attempt to claim that.

Now here's the question, if the gathering of the church was to take place when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age as described in Matt.24:30-31 and Rev.19:11-21, when would believers have time to be in heaven to receive our fine linen, white and clean and how could we be following the Lord out of heaven, unless we were already in heaven? When would we have time to receive those white horses?

This is the exegesis that you should be applying to the conclusion of your interpretation regarding this issue, which many do not do.

Don't just read this--and I am speaking to everyone--and brush it off, but take into consideration what I am proclaiming here.

Go and do an honest comparison of the scriptures that I have provided. As believers, we are supposed to be watching and longing for the Lord's imminent return. If you believe that the gathering of the church is going to take place at the same time that the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, then his return is not imminent, because we would first have have to experience everything that is listed in Matt.24 and all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. In that case I could follow the Lord's time of arrival like a road map. I would know that he woule be returning immediately after the 7th bowl judgment was poured out. All I would have to do is watch the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments take place in chronological order and I would know that as soon as that 7th bowl was poured out, that he was about to appear.

I have also continued to make known that scripture states that believers are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath. God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will all take place prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. That said, since scripture also states that believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath and that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath, then we cannot go through that time period of God's wrath. The conclusion is that, we must then be gathered prior to God's wrath, since we are not appointed to go through it.

This interpretation is in keeping with the Lord's promise to come back and get us. It makes time for us to stand before the Bema seat of Christ to be rewarded for our good works or to suffer loss of rewards. It also gives us time to receive our fine linen, white and clean (wedding clothes) before we return with the Lord to the earth to end the age.

Stop just repeating the same apologetics that you've heard and look at what is being presented here.





"

 

[Locutus]

Hi Locutus,

Actually the proof would be on you. You would need to prove something happened, not the other way around. No offense meant.


Acts 1:9-11
And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”

I don't recall that any of the apostles mentioned this happening in 70 AD. In fact, Paul and John and others mentioned Jesus's return as being sometime in the future. John wrote Revelation after 70 AD.

The only apostle that is claimed to be around after 70 AD is John - even if he wrote after 70 AD he said that the things in the book of revelation where to shortly come to pass:


Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass

Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to show unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

The proof of both Jesus's and John's statements is that pile of rock that the "Jews" keep banging their heads against in "Israel".

Of course you can explain away Jesus' and John's statements to suit your particular "theology" rather than take the scriptures at what they say.

Paul, Peter and James claimed the lord and the end was at hand:

Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

Phil 4:5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.

1 Pet 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

James 5:9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

At hand, must shortly be done, the end of all things is at hand, "at the door", it is the last time can't be stretched 20 centuries into the future looking for signs in the daily news papers.

 

[88]

The only apostle that is claimed to be around after 70 AD is John - even if he wrote after 70 AD he said that the things in the book of revelation where to shortly come to pass:


Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass

Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to show unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

The proof of both Jesus's and John's statements is that pile of rock that the "Jews" keep banging their heads against in "Israel".

Of course you can explain away Jesus' and John's statements to suit your particular "theology" rather than take the scriptures at what they say.

Paul, Peter and James claimed the lord and the end was at hand:

Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

Phil 4:5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.

1 Pet 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

James 5:9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

At hand, must shortly be done, the end of all things is at hand, "at the door", it is the last time can't be stretched 20 centuries into the future looking for signs in the daily news papers.

****a thousand years with the Lord is a day---seems like a short time in the Lord's perspective...

 

[Locutus]

****a thousand years with the Lord is a day---seems like a short time in the Lord's perspective...

That has nothing to do with "at hand", "shortly come to pass" - it's a lame attempt at trying to dismiss the time statements in the bible.

Good luck with that.

 

[samuel23]

EG you made my point so don't try to get out of it, Paul had to be post trib gathering because he joined a church that was post-trib gathering....having been taught by Jesus Himself.

 

[Enow]

Jesus and Paul and John and Peter both taught about a pre tribulational gathering and a post tribulational gathering.

Christ the firstfruits are the pre tribulational gathering.

They that be Christ's that got left behind plus all new believers are the post tribulational gathering.

If you read all the warnings to the disciples, we are being warned as not under the oppression of the mark of the beast system to buy and sell during the great tribulation.

The description of the times of the believers that Jesus is warning to be ready is now; when the snares of the cares of this life may happen now to the believers. Even if they were not in iniquity, they can also be in danger of being like Lot's wife of not wanting to leave this life when Jesus appears.

If you read Luke 14:15-24, these were all saved believers making excuses not to come to the King's Supper for the cares of this life. That is hardly descriptive of a believer under the oppression of the great tribulation when at the end of the great tribulation, Satan and the world's armies will gather at Jerusalem to do battle with the Lord, and yet no one knows the times when He will come. Therefore that application of not knowing when He comes only applies to the pre tribulational rapture for why believers are to prepare themselves NOW and wait by the grace of God & His help to be ready to go when the Bridegroom comes, because He could come at any moment.

Jesus warned His disciples to prepare and the consequence is being cut off to have their portions with unbelievers when He will send a fire on the earth; and those unrepentant saints left behind, He still acknowledges them as His servants as they are receiving stripes by the level of knowledge for not getting ready by Him to leave in Luke 12:40-49

So there is an escape; a leaving before that fiery judgment falls on the earth which will serve as a catalyst for the coming great tribulation.

Luke 21:[SUP]33 [/SUP]Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.[SUP]34 [/SUP]And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.[SUP]35 [/SUP]For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.[SUP]36 [/SUP]Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

So there is an escape....a leaving of this life for the one above when the Bridegroom comes.
Luke 17:[SUP]27 [/SUP]They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.[SUP]28 [/SUP]Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;[SUP]29 [/SUP]But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.[SUP]30 [/SUP]Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.[SUP]31 [/SUP]In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.[SUP]32 [/SUP]Remember Lot's wife.[SUP]33 [/SUP]Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.[SUP]34 [/SUP]I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

Immediately after the pre trib rapture, a fire will come that will set the stage for the coming great tribulation where resources will be pooled under a new world order that will enforce the mark of the beast system as the only means to buy & sell to wage war on the saints that will not take the mark to buy & sell to survive in that new world order.

Jesus can help any seeker to see the meaning of His words to see the difference between the times we are living now and when to apply His words to the times under the oppression of the great tribulation because His words and Paul's words are the written scripture as moved by the Holy Ghost, are talking about 2 events, back and forth at times.

 

[samuel23]

Hi AH: Good grief, I know every single possible reason why people believe in a re-trib gathering of the church down to the most tiny detail, that is not the problem. Also, I would love to believe in a pre-trib gathering. The simple facts are that the bible teaches a post trib gathering of the church. In two of the gospels Jesus stated clearly that He was returning for the church AFTER the tribulation, also Jesus described the tribulation as a great persecution of those who believe in Jesus Christ(not the wrath of God). Also, it can easily be demonstrated that Paul was teaching a post-trib gathering in the Thess letters. The only thing left is the time of the return of Christ in Rev 6 and then the church in Rev 7 in Heaven after having gone through the great tribulation.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hi AH: Good grief, I know every single possible reason why people believe in a re-trib gathering of the church down to the most tiny detail, that is not the problem. Also, I would love to believe in a pre-trib gathering. The simple facts are that the bible teaches a post trib gathering of the church. In two of the gospels Jesus stated clearly that He was returning for the church AFTER the tribulation, also Jesus described the tribulation as a great persecution of those who believe in Jesus Christ(not the wrath of God). Also, it can easily be demonstrated that Paul was teaching a post-trib gathering in the Thess letters. The only thing left is the time of the return of Christ in Rev 6 and then the church in Rev 7 in Heaven after having gone through the great tribulation.

It is very revealing that you never respond to the scriptures that I provide, which leads me to believe that you have no answer for them. As I continue to tell you, until you understand that the gathering of the church is a separate event from the Lord's return to the earth, you will be in error in your interpretation.

Instead of just writing what you did above, how producing scripture to even one of the issues that I presented. What scripture do you have to refute that the church cannot go through God's wrath?

What scriptural explanation do you have for the army that is following Christ out of heaven in Rev.19:11-21?

I've noticed that you never address any of these issues with scripture. You just reply like you did above without any scriptural support. It's like no matter how much proof we give, you're not interested and that because you are one of those who are more concerned with fighting tooth and nail rather than entertain the possibility that you are wrong in what you believe.

also Jesus described the tribulation as a great persecution of those who believe in Jesus Christ(not the wrath of God).

You have no idea what you are talking about! The wrath of God, also known as "the day of the Lord" and "the hour trial" is a specific time period in which God is gong to decimate the population of the earth and dismantle all human government. Below are some scriptures describing this unprecedented time of wrath:


" “I will utterly sweep away everything from the face of the earth,” declares the Lord. “I will sweep away man and beast; I will sweep away the birds of the heavens and the fish of the sea, and the rubble with the wicked. I will cut off mankind from
the face of the earth,” declares the Lord." - Zeph 1:1-3

"The great day of the Lord is near—near and coming quickly. The cry on the day of the Lord is bitter; the Mighty Warrior shouts his battle cry.

That day will be a day of wrath—a day of distress and anguish, a day of trouble and ruin, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness—a day of trumpet and battle cry against the fortified cities and against the corner towers. “I will bring such distress on all people that they will grope about like those who are blind, because they have sinned against the Lord. Their blood will be poured out like dust and their entrails like dung. Neither their silver nor their gold will be able to save them on the day of the Lord’s wrath.”

In the fire of his jealousy the whole earth will be consumed, for he will make a sudden end of all who live on the earth.

"Wail, for the day of the Lord is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty. Because of this, all hands will go limp, every heart will melt with fear. Terror will seize them, pain and anguish will grip them; they will writhe like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at each other, their faces aflame.

See, the day of the Lord is coming—a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger—to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it.

The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light. I will punish the world for its evil, the wicked for their sins. I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty and will humble the pride of the ruthless.

I will make people scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir. Therefore I will make the heavens tremble; and the earth will shake from its place at the wrath of the Lord Almighty, in the day of his burning anger."

Regarding God making people scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir, see Dan.2:31-45 & Matt.24:22.

The prophesies regarding the day of the Lord by the OT prophets, will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgements.

From the on-set of the church till this very day, people have continued to experience the trials and tribulation that Jesus said we would have. This is not the wrath of God, but these trials and persecutions come at the hands of men and the powers of darkness.

The coming wrath of God will be an unprecedented time, the likes of which the earth has never seen and will ever see again. This is just another Biblical topic regarding end-time events that people don't understand. They have diluted, watered down, pacified, God's wrath.


Paul referred to the gathering of the church as "the blessed hope" and that believers should comfort each other with this hope. If the gathering was to take place after God's wrath, it would be no blessed hope, nor could believers comfort one another with those words.

You just have no understanding of these things and are not willing to listen. I suppose that you will just have to find out first hand, unfortunately.

Also, it can easily be demonstrated that Paul was teaching a post-trib gathering in the Thess letters.

Please enlighten us by showing us where Paul taught a post-trib gathering in the Thessalonian letters. Please use scripture to do so.

 

[samuel23]

Hi AH: I am assuming that you have the ability to comprehend and use honest reasonable thinking...so hear me out please. The concept of the pre-trib gathering comes 100% from the assertion that Paul in the Thess letters wrote of a pre-trib gathering. Now do you understand and accept this? All of your assertions about Rev 4:1 and all the OT scriptures mean absolutely nothing if Paul did not write to the Thess of a pre-trib gathering of the church. Do you agree so far? In order to find an answer one needs to go to the root of the matter, not beating the bushes to death. So, do you accept the reality that the idea of a pre-trib gathering is based entirely on the assertion that Paul wrote of a pre-trib gathering to the Thess??? If you answer yes I will continue.

 

[Locutus]

2 Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The gathering together and the destroying "of his coming" is one event - after the great tribulation:

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken,

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

The elect were 1st century saints.