Church History-attendence, persecution, and power

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Elizabeth619

Senior Member
Jul 19, 2011
6,397
109
48
#1
I want thoughts on this. Made great points. Are we repeating history again, and leading ourselves into a destruction? I know that I see many churches now remodeling and upgrading their buildings. Adding new instruments, more "hip" ways or worship and so on. Is this good or bad for the church?
On your mark
get set
GO...

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1574-some-lessons-from-church-history



[h=1]Some Lessons From Church History[/h]BY WAYNE JACKSON
The church of Christ was born in troublesome times. The bold and uncompromising preaching that was characteristic of those early disciples soon plunged them into grievous persecutions.
Peter and John were imprisoned and whipped (Acts 4, 5). Shortly thereafter Stephen became the first martyr (Acts 7:60). Apparently his death triggered the “great persecution” (Acts 8:1), which subsequently came upon the church.
For the following two and one half centuries, the church of God was literally bathed in blood. Thousands of saints were tortured and murdered in the most inhumane way.
Though the atrocities of this period were dreadful indeed, the persecutions were not without secondary benefits to the cause of the Savior.
First of all, the hardships tempered those who were truly converted to Jesus. Secondly, it “weeded out” much of the hypocritical element which plagued the church. And thirdly, it prevented insincere people from identifying with the people of God. As one historian has put it,
“One effect of the trials through which the Christians of that period passed was a purified church. The persecutions kept away all who were not sincere in their profession.”
In spite of the tribulations, the church grew with marvelous rapidity. Scholars estimate that there were possibly some sixty million Christians by the end of the second century A.D.
In the early fourth century, however, the Roman ruler Constantine came to the imperial throne. He was friendly toward the Christians, and in 313 A.D. he issued his famous “Edict of Toleration,” which at once put an end to the persecution of those who professed to follow Christ.
Admittedly, this produced some very good effects as far as society in general was concerned. Crucifixion as a method of capital punishment was abolished, slavery began to fade, and the murder of unwanted infants was repressed.
If we consider the cessation of persecution a blessing, it is only fair to point out that this newly found popularity which Christianity enjoyed had its disadvantages as well. In view of the popularity of the “Christian religion” in the western world of our own time, we might be able to learn some valuable lessons from history.
In his excellent little volume, Story of the Christian Church, J. L. Hurlbut lists some of the effects that this period of history had upon the church.
[h=2]Church attendance exploded[/h]Hurlbut writes:
“Everybody sought membership in the church, and nearly everybody was received. Both good and bad, sincere seekers after God and hypocritical seekers after gain, rushed into the communion.”
Conditions are not totally unlike this, especially in some places, even today. In some areas it is “popular” to be a member of a church; it is even financially advantageous. In many cases, it has become a cultural norm with very little correlation between what is professed and the reality of life.
In recent years much emphasis has been given to booming attendance drives in competition with denominational groups, with little stress on straight-forward, soul-shaking Bible teaching.
Have we become so enamored with quantity that we are but little concerned with quality? We must remember that it is possible to be “strong in the land, but not for truth” (Jer. 9:3).
[h=2]Church services became more elaborate, but less spiritual[/h]Hurlbut further observes,
“The services of worship increased in splendor, but were less spiritual and hearty than those of former times.”
How true of today! This is the era of huge “plants,” plush trappings, and stained glass. In many cases, an extravagant theater-like “experience” seems to be the preference of the day.
Image and appearance in the community has become more important than our image with Jehovah. And those monstrous mortgages to which we have anchored ourselves have in some cases been an effective deterrent to powerful pulpit preaching.
Some of our preaching is so indistinct and “spit-and-polish” oriented, that one can transfer from denominationalism into our fellowship and never be aware of the change!
Numerous brethren who once shouted “Amen” to solid gospel preaching, when meeting in those little white-framed buildings, now blush in dismay when denominational names are mentioned or sin is vigorously exposed. What has happened?
[h=2]Corrupted by power[/h]Finally, Hurlbut notes:
“As a result of the church sitting in power, we do not see Christianity transforming the world to its own ideal, but the world dominating the church.”
When there is no sharp line of distinction between the lives of professing Christians and the world, the influence of the church is greatly curtailed. When members of the church can dance, practice social drinking, smoke, dress indecently, and neglect any phase of the Lord’s work that suits their notion, with little being said and practically nothing being done about it, is it any wonder that the church does not grow as it did nineteen centuries ago?
Yes, there are some vital lessons to be learned from history. We ought to look back to where we’ve been, and then ahead to where we seem to be going, and then ask ourselves, “Are we aiming in the right direction?”
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,706
3,650
113
#2
As God builds His Church (within a Church) we see this same pattern.
Riches and prosperity yields a Laodicean type Church..weak, blind but self satisfied.
I wouldn't wish for trials and persecution but I'm afraid sometimes that's the only way we learn :(
 
T

Txroads

Guest
#3
Hmm... Actually ain't sure.... Can't tell if they're tryin ta keep the youngins they got or tryin ta get a hold of that new generation....all that remodelin I think is ta just get folks ta come look at the pretty new toy......all depends what they're preachin I guess....
 

Elizabeth619

Senior Member
Jul 19, 2011
6,397
109
48
#4
I never gave much thought to the persecutions weeding out the hypocrites. Kinda concerning yet as I lay here half awake I can honestly say I'm willing to be persecuted in the worst way. I'm prepared. I don't fear it. Don't really want it to happen. It will probably hurt. A lot. But I don't fear death.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,706
3,650
113
#5
Hmm... Actually ain't sure.... Can't tell if they're tryin ta keep the youngins they got or tryin ta get a hold of that new generation....all that remodelin I think is ta just get folks ta come look at the pretty new toy......all depends what they're preachin I guess....
That sort of reminds me of this...

Matthew 24:1-2 KJVS
[1] And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the [ornate, grand]buildings of the temple. [2] And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
 

Joidevivre

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2014
3,838
271
83
#6
You don't hear about them very much, but there is a move toward meetings in homes now. Fewer people, but more fellowship, prayer and ministry to each other. Led by teachers who are grounded in scripture, yet open the way for discussions.

Having been to a few, I love them. Any $$ collected through tithes is given to help people in the community who are in need. Or to buy bibles for people. There is no upkeep connected to the "church" since the pastors or leaders also work full time. And the people who are a part of these groups fill in for hospital/home visits when needed.

Most have not more than 20.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,706
3,650
113
#7
You don't hear about them very much, but there is a move toward meetings in homes now. Fewer people, but more fellowship, prayer and ministry to each other. Led by teachers who are grounded in scripture, yet open the way for discussions.

Having been to a few, I love them. Any $$ collected through tithes is given to help people in the community who are in need. Or to buy bibles for people. There is no upkeep connected to the "church" since the pastors or leaders also work full time. And the people who are a part of these groups fill in for hospital/home visits when needed.

Most have not more than 20.
There was a wave of home fellowships in the '70's. I liked them.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,890
26,053
113
#8
There was a wave of home fellowships in the '70's. I liked them.
I was attending a home fellowship meeting here for a while... we met in the pastor's house every Sunday afternoon for devotional reading, meditation, prayer, sharing, singing, pot luck, and the Lord's Supper. It was a wonderful time of fellowship :)
 
M

Miri

Guest
#9
Maybe this is an obvious response, church is the people, the
building is the practical means of meeting up.

I don't have a problem with the size of the building big or small, the
issue is whether we meet with God, or just meet with each other.
 
M

Miri

Guest
#10
The home churches you mention, was this a "church" in and of itself or
where they part of a larger "church".

Just wondered as its common place in the UK for the main church building
to be used for Sunday's and larger meetings etc, but for smaller groups to
also be held in people's houses throughout the week.

I use to go to a smaller church, but there was also two house meetings during
the week, one a young people's group, the other a prayer group.

In my current church there are over 300 small groups who meet up in
people's houses or meet up in smaller rooms of the church - whichever is the
more convenient.
 

ForthAngel

Senior Member
Aug 31, 2012
2,171
91
48
#11
L

Lost_sheep

Guest
#12
I can only speak on my experiences in churches I have attended, so what I am about to say might not necessarily apply to "the church" as a whole.

What I have seen with my eyes is that the bulk of the congregations are comprised of elderly people and folks at least old enough to be AARP members or collecting SS. That...and for the most part the remainder is comprised of young couples with a couple kids in tow, or young people from foreign lands staying in the US as students or as refugees. By and large, I don't see many people my age.

Across all the ages, I see one thing that strikes me every time, and that is that there seems to be a distinct lack of worship happening, and a whole lot of "sit here for 90 minutes and listen to the pastor then we'll go eat at the buffet down the road". I don't presume to know what is in their wicked little hearts, but based on body language, the half-hearted singing of the hymns, the lack of people that bring their Bible to church with them or don't even bother to grab one of the pew Bibles to follow along...it all just looks like people are going through the motions.

Granted, I have only been to a few different churches since December when I've really gotten interested in Christianity, but I've been to the Evangelical, Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, Nazerene, and it's been pretty much the same situation in each instance. Some will accuse me of looking for a "perfect" church, and nothing could be further from the truth.

I hope what I am seeing is confined only to my little area of central Iowa, but somehow, I think this "falling away" is pervasive and it's infected churches and congregations all over. No doubt there are true believers here and there, and strong congregations scattered amongst the wandering masses, but I think somehow that there is a whole darned bunch of people just faking the funk on Sunday mornings and relying on routines and repetition to satisfy their minds and that God is something they only think about from 10:30am to 12:00pm, once a week.

Just my opinion based on my observations. I'm not a theological anthropologist, a psychologist, a human behaviorist or anything else. Just a guy who's looking for a place to pasture and not finding it amongst the weeds and thickets.
 
M

Miri

Guest
#13
Aw just wish you could come to my church, I'm sure you would fit right in :)
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
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#14
There are many different parts to a human body and the body of Christ is compared to it. There are some cells that never interact with other cells and they have a different function but they are still a part. There are some cells that are inactive ( so to speak ) until called upon. I believe it is the same with the Lord's body. Jesus is the Head.

He will put us where He has determined us to be and to do whatever He wants. If the Lord wants you to be a truck driver - you had better not be pastoring a church ( no matter how good it looks ). This is working in the flesh trying to "work for God".

I like the concept of home churches and again I think there are times and places for specific individuals to be in certain areas. We all have something to contribute. We need each other and we should be encouraging each other no matter where the Lord plants us.

One other note " If riches and prosperity within themselves are such a plight then we are going to be in complete apostasy when we are in heaven"". God is a God of abundance. It's not the riches or prosperity that is bad..it's the fact that people say.." I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing.." Rev 3:17 Their life and hope are in "things" and not in the Lord.

God is not opposed to His children having things....He is opposed to "things" having His children. It was a disciple of Jesus ... a rich man Joseph that had the tomb for Jesus to have His body laid. We need to be blessed so that we can be a blessing to others.

I would say in our western society the desire for riches have become a "god" within themselves with poor people being just as covetous as the more flamboyant people coveting riches. There is a massive difference between being rich in Christ and coveting riches.

Jesus is our true treasure and in Him we are complete. If we can get a grip on what He has done in His finished work and that we died with Him and have been raised up with Him. That our true life is hidden in Christ in God - then all the other things will come into proper alignment. We need strong local churches to preach the true gospel of the grace of Christ in order to see the results that the early church experienced.

This will create strong churches that have their complete trust in what God provides so that these churches can be a blessing to others in the world. "Your kingdom come..Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven". We have the kingdom of God in us now..in our new creations in Christ.

I think if all the parts of the body keep Jesus as their Head and source for all things - then we will see tremendous things come to pass within our local churches. How this is done will be different for different groups of people. we need to allow others in the body of Christ to be what the Lord has called them to be. This means in come cases mega churches and in other cases...small home groups. Let the body part function as it has been set up to be. Don't judge a home church because you are in a mega church and vice versa. Both are of the Lord.
 
Last edited:
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
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#15
Across all the ages, I see one thing that strikes me every time, and that is that there seems to be a distinct lack of worship happening, and a whole lot of "sit here for 90 minutes and listen to the pastor then we'll go eat at the buffet down the road". I don't presume to know what is in their wicked little hearts, but based on body language, the half-hearted singing of the hymns, the lack of people that bring their Bible to church with them or don't even bother to grab one of the pew Bibles to follow along...it all just looks like people are going through the motions.
Contained within that observation is the answer to the riddle, "What's the most deserted place on earth at 1 PM on Sundays?"
 

Joidevivre

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2014
3,838
271
83
#16
To answer a question, some home churches are begun by a group of neighbors, some by a group of past fellow members of a church, and many begun by retired pastors. As mentioned above, some are offshoots of larger churches under the denominational covering. Some try to avoid the "denominational" labeling and would rather be considered just a bible study group. There is usually a main teacher or facilitator. And Jesus Christ is the focus. Studying the word is dominant.

They spend the time worshiping, praying for each other, and encouraging/building up the gifts in each other (allowing a place for those gifts to be exercised).

The one I was a part of was called "The Disciples Fellowship". These are mostly at night to accommodate the working men and women.
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
6,646
1,397
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#17
Our church is what I would consider to be pretty large... close to 1000 members. Two services. I find that I don't know anyone that goes to the other service.. which is why we do small groups. I think small groups are a very good tool for helping build fellowship in a larger church...
I've gone through ups and downs in my "wanting" to attend. It's very easy to sit back and say "I don't like the way nobody sings with feeling, or nobody pays attention" but, a church is what YOU make of it. If I'm not participating, then a "bad" church is MY fault. If you are looking for a church to "make you feel good", or to "minister" to you, I think you're going about it the wrong way. You have a "me, me, me" attitude. It's all about how good, or spiritual can they make ME feel.

Sorry folks, that's not how it works... ask me how I know... been there, done that..

This is not to say that there are not "toxic" churches out there, but by and large, the church is made up of folks just like you and me.... forgiven sinners, who still haven't achieved perfection (and never will). What are YOU going to do to make a church "better"?
Hopefully it won't take widespread prosecution, or an economic collapse, but, God is in charge....
 

Elizabeth619

Senior Member
Jul 19, 2011
6,397
109
48
#18
My church has about 400 members. For my small town that is a large church. Every 5 years they take on a remodeling project. Of course buildings of any for need repairs but thats certainly different. I dont think we need an extravagant entryway with a chandelier the size of texas. I just think that money could have been used to help the needy.
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
6,646
1,397
113
#19
You would be correct about that...
While I don't mind having a nice building to serve the church, I think the "trappings" should be minimal.. for utility, rather than beauty, or style.
I believe one of the main things a church should do is benevolence work. If a church is not doing that, I will not be a part of it. I used to be the "point man" for our benevolence outreach, for 5 or 6 years, and was happy that the elders were always ready to meet a genuine need, even if the benevolence fund was dry (which happened more than once...)
I finally had to take a sabbatical, as it was beginning to wear on me, and I could sense a lessening of empathy on my part... so I had to let others step in, with less jaded attitudes.

Anyway, long story... in order to say that I agree with you. A church's focus shouldn't be "things"... it should be on helping people.
 
Feb 7, 2015
22,418
413
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#20
I can only speak on my experiences in churches I have attended, so what I am about to say might not necessarily apply to "the church" as a whole.

What I have seen with my eyes is that the bulk of the congregations are comprised of elderly people and folks at least old enough to be AARP members or collecting SS. That...and for the most part the remainder is comprised of young couples with a couple kids in tow, or young people from foreign lands staying in the US as students or as refugees. By and large, I don't see many people my age.

Across all the ages, I see one thing that strikes me every time, and that is that there seems to be a distinct lack of worship happening, and a whole lot of "sit here for 90 minutes and listen to the pastor then we'll go eat at the buffet down the road". I don't presume to know what is in their wicked little hearts, but based on body language, the half-hearted singing of the hymns, the lack of people that bring their Bible to church with them or don't even bother to grab one of the pew Bibles to follow along...it all just looks like people are going through the motions.

Granted, I have only been to a few different churches since December when I've really gotten interested in Christianity, but I've been to the Evangelical, Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, Nazerene, and it's been pretty much the same situation in each instance. Some will accuse me of looking for a "perfect" church, and nothing could be further from the truth.

I hope what I am seeing is confined only to my little area of central Iowa, but somehow, I think this "falling away" is pervasive and it's infected churches and congregations all over. No doubt there are true believers here and there, and strong congregations scattered amongst the wandering masses, but I think somehow that there is a whole darned bunch of people just faking the funk on Sunday mornings and relying on routines and repetition to satisfy their minds and that God is something they only think about from 10:30am to 12:00pm, once a week.

Just my opinion based on my observations. I'm not a theological anthropologist, a psychologist, a human behaviorist or anything else. Just a guy who's looking for a place to pasture and not finding it amongst the weeds and thickets.
Just another little reminder about the map.