Conditional Salvation
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lol.. You do not know the law do you? or the purpose of the law.
we are ALL sinners, On our best day, we do not deserve eternal life, because on our best day, we still sin.
WHat separates us is our trust in his gospel.
do you trust God, or not.
those who do will recieve his GIFT. those not will reject it outright, or try to work for it (like you)
we are ALL sinners, On our best day, we do not deserve eternal life, because on our best day, we still sin.
WHat separates us is our trust in his gospel.
do you trust God, or not.
those who do will recieve his GIFT. those not will reject it outright, or try to work for it (like you)
does it offend you if i say that it was God, not myself, that removed my heart of stone and gave me a heart of flesh?
what if every act of "free will" in my life was disobedient, and every obedient work was predestined?
am i wrong to thank the Father that made me for making also in me a heart able and willing to turn to Him?
this is so that Christ is lifted up, and every bit of myself is lowered beneath Him. i could not turn my face to Him if He had not given strength to my neck, and i would not even have a face to turn if it were not also given to me by Him. i'm not sitting back and waiting for God to move every finger, but i'm not taking any credit for anything good that comes from me, because "in my flesh there dwelleth no good thing"
what if every act of "free will" in my life was disobedient, and every obedient work was predestined?
am i wrong to thank the Father that made me for making also in me a heart able and willing to turn to Him?
this is so that Christ is lifted up, and every bit of myself is lowered beneath Him. i could not turn my face to Him if He had not given strength to my neck, and i would not even have a face to turn if it were not also given to me by Him. i'm not sitting back and waiting for God to move every finger, but i'm not taking any credit for anything good that comes from me, because "in my flesh there dwelleth no good thing"
in no way am I offended...the question is did you repent or did God repent for you .......are you exempt from all men?.....So God's command does not affect you?......the scripture says.Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
i repent, and am only able to repent, because God has made me willing and able to do so.
Commit your way to the LORD;
trust in him, and he will act.
He will bring forth your righteousness as the light,
and your justice as the noonday.
(Psalm 37:5-6)
what i "did" was believe and trust in Him - even this i could not have done without His mercy
and what He did was not only to show me the way that i should go, but set my foot in the right path.
For who is God, but the Lord?
And who is a rock, except our God?—
the God who equipped me with strength
and made my way blameless.
He made my feet like the feet of a deer
and set me secure on the heights.
He trains my hands for war,
so that my arms can bend a bow of bronze.
You have given me the shield of your salvation,
and your right hand supported me,
and your gentleness made me great.
You gave a wide place for my steps under me,
and my feet did not slip.
(Psalm 18:31-36)
i have every cause to praise Him, and no cause to boast !!
Commit your way to the LORD;
trust in him, and he will act.
He will bring forth your righteousness as the light,
and your justice as the noonday.
(Psalm 37:5-6)
what i "did" was believe and trust in Him - even this i could not have done without His mercy
and what He did was not only to show me the way that i should go, but set my foot in the right path.
For who is God, but the Lord?
And who is a rock, except our God?—
the God who equipped me with strength
and made my way blameless.
He made my feet like the feet of a deer
and set me secure on the heights.
He trains my hands for war,
so that my arms can bend a bow of bronze.
You have given me the shield of your salvation,
and your right hand supported me,
and your gentleness made me great.
You gave a wide place for my steps under me,
and my feet did not slip.
(Psalm 18:31-36)
i have every cause to praise Him, and no cause to boast !!
and has he made everyone else willing and able? or is it you alone...while I admire your giving God the praise ...you are also giving the impression that God has over taken your will .....scripture teaches we have a choice...and it is a testimony of the power of God....
John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
By doing such you are denying God gave you power to become.....
Romans 2:7-9King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
By doing such you are denying God gave you power to become.....
Romans 2:7-9King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Repent = metanoia = change of mind.
The only change of mind that saves, is from not trusting Christ to trusting Christ as Savior. That may mean changing mind from works-salvation to Christ-salvation.
Here it is for all but the obtuse:
1 Cor 1:21
it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save them that believe.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Gal 2:15-16
We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus[/B], that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Gal 3:
This only would I learn from you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the flesh? 4 Did ye suffer so many things in vain? if it be indeed in vain. 5 He therefore that supplieth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or
by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as
Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 7 Know therefore that they that are of faith, the same are sons of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all the nations be blessed. 9 So then they that are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one who continues not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them. Now that no man is justified by the law before God, is evident: for, The righteous shall live by faith; 12 and the law is not of faith; but, He that doeth them shall live in them. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one who hangs on a tree: that upon the Gentiles might come the blessing of Abraham in Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Gal 3:22ff
But the scripture shut up all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept in ward under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor. For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Gal 5:5-6
For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision avails anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith working through love.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Eph 1:10ff
to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, I say in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will; 12 to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ: 13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,— in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God’s own possession, unto the praise of his glory.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Eph 2:
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one should boast
[NO WORKS, NO WATER, NO EASTERN DENOMINATION]
The only change of mind that saves, is from not trusting Christ to trusting Christ as Savior. That may mean changing mind from works-salvation to Christ-salvation.
Here it is for all but the obtuse:
1 Cor 1:21
it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save them that believe.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Gal 2:15-16
We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus[/B], that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Gal 3:
This only would I learn from you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the flesh? 4 Did ye suffer so many things in vain? if it be indeed in vain. 5 He therefore that supplieth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or
by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as
Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 7 Know therefore that they that are of faith, the same are sons of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all the nations be blessed. 9 So then they that are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one who continues not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them. Now that no man is justified by the law before God, is evident: for, The righteous shall live by faith; 12 and the law is not of faith; but, He that doeth them shall live in them. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one who hangs on a tree: that upon the Gentiles might come the blessing of Abraham in Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Gal 3:22ff
But the scripture shut up all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept in ward under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor. For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Gal 5:5-6
For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision avails anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith working through love.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Eph 1:10ff
to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, I say in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will; 12 to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ: 13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,— in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God’s own possession, unto the praise of his glory.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Eph 2:
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one should boast
[NO WORKS, NO WATER, NO EASTERN DENOMINATION]
you posted almost the whole bible...but the command to repent comes before everything you posted....
Matthew 9:13
But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Luke 24:46-48King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]46 [/SUP]And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
[SUP]47 [/SUP]And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
[SUP]48 [/SUP]And ye are witnesses of these things.
Matthew 9:13
But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Luke 24:46-48King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]46 [/SUP]And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
[SUP]47 [/SUP]And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
[SUP]48 [/SUP]And ye are witnesses of these things.
Through faith, not by works. Christ's finished work of redemption is the means of our salvation, faith is the instrumental means by which we attain eternal life and works are the fruit, by-product and demonstrative evidence of our faith, but not the essence of faith and not the means of our salvation.
It's actually your error. If one is justified then they are being sanctified. Where does the Bible say "no longer justified?" To the contrary, we read: Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. ALL OF THEM. No faith = never justified.
The gospel is the death, burial and resurrection of Christ and is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who BELIEVES.. You call that nothing? 1 Corinthians 1:18 - For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
We are saved through faith and those who have been saved through faith have entered into this relationship with Christ (John 17:3).
This is ongoing Sanctification, not Justification, for those who BELIEVE and have everlasting life and shall not be condemned, but have passed from death into life. Believers are working out their salvation from a saved status, not working for their salvation that they don't yet have from a lost status.
Faith demonstrates that it is saving by continuing and not failing. Temporary shallow belief that has no root and produces no fruit is obviously not saving faith. Never was.
A gift must be received. We must believe the gospel in order to receive salvation (Romans 1:16). That is accepting/receiving Christ through faith.
The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ, not through our best performance. Saved by grace through faith or through faithful in all things? Is Christ's finished work of redemption the all sufficient means of our salvation or is our best performance/works the means of our salvation? You can't have it both ways.
Faith is the root and works are the fruit of salvation. No fruit would demonstrate no root. Works (genuine good works) cannot exist without faith (a bad tree cannot produce good fruit). Faith and works are like a two-coupon ticket to heaven. The coupon of works is not good for passage and the coupon of faith is not valid if void of works.
Faith that is lost was never firmly rooted in Christ and established from the start. Faith that people lose is shallow temporary belief that has no root. This kind of faith may wither away, but not genuine saving faith in Christ.
Working out our salvation to attain eternal life is not stating otherwise as if we have not attained it yet?
Not automatically. Christ's work sufficiently paid for the sins of the world, but the world can only be saved through Him BY FAITH, not automatically saved by Him without faith.
Oxymoron.
Saved through faith which is belief, trust, reliance in Christ alone for salvation. A synergistic cooperative, working relationship is the result of having been saved through faith. Saved believers are in this relationship with Christ BECAUSE they are saved.
No misunderstanding. It's a fact!
Yet you say by man being faithful in all things, he receives eternal life. That is salvation based on man's performance/works which equates to man saving himself. You can't have it both ways.
Man attains eternal life through faith. Man works with God toward becoming Christ like BECAUSE he is saved, not to become saved. You continue to confuse Justification with ongoing Sanctification.
That work is accomplished out of faith, but is not faith itself. Faith is faith and works are works.
Which demonstrates that faith was never firmly rooted and established from the start. Never saved.
1 Corinthians 3:14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; (OF REWARD) but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. The reward here is not salvation. Why would I believe that Satan will also have eternal life? In James 2:19, nobody is questioning the fact that the demons also believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they DO NOT believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. I believe "mental assent" that George Washington existed and I also believe in the historical facts about George Washington, but I am not trusting in George Washington to save my soul. See the difference? Saving belief/faith is more than just an "intellectual acknowledgment" to the existence and historical facts about Christ. Satan believes that, but is not saved. Saving belief/faith completely trusts in Christ's finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation. Not in Christ plus our works/performance/traditions/church but IN CHRIST ALONE.
Scripture is not the truth? What have you been smoking?
The Bible is God's Written Word and Jesus is the Living Word.
You are incorrect again. Both churches teach works salvation. Difference in style, but same in substance. Works based false gospel. Either we are saved by working or else we are saved by believing (Romans 4:5). Either Christ did it all or we at least did some of it. You can't have it both ways.
You just said it. Eternal life is through OUR WORKING. Salvation is through BELIEVING IN HIM/FAITH and not our working (Romans 4:5-6). Our working which follows is a result of our faith (ongoing Sanctification) and receiving salvation. Believers work from salvation, not for salvation.
Faith that claims to be genuine (James 2:14) but demonstrates that it's dead because it is alone (barren of works) is hell. Faith that trusts in Christ alone for salvation (that is not barren of works because it's a living faith) is heaven.
It's actually your error. If one is justified then they are being sanctified. Where does the Bible say "no longer justified?" To the contrary, we read: Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. ALL OF THEM. No faith = never justified.
The gospel is the death, burial and resurrection of Christ and is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who BELIEVES.. You call that nothing? 1 Corinthians 1:18 - For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
We are saved through faith and those who have been saved through faith have entered into this relationship with Christ (John 17:3).
This is ongoing Sanctification, not Justification, for those who BELIEVE and have everlasting life and shall not be condemned, but have passed from death into life. Believers are working out their salvation from a saved status, not working for their salvation that they don't yet have from a lost status.
Faith demonstrates that it is saving by continuing and not failing. Temporary shallow belief that has no root and produces no fruit is obviously not saving faith. Never was.
A gift must be received. We must believe the gospel in order to receive salvation (Romans 1:16). That is accepting/receiving Christ through faith.
The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ, not through our best performance. Saved by grace through faith or through faithful in all things? Is Christ's finished work of redemption the all sufficient means of our salvation or is our best performance/works the means of our salvation? You can't have it both ways.
Faith is the root and works are the fruit of salvation. No fruit would demonstrate no root. Works (genuine good works) cannot exist without faith (a bad tree cannot produce good fruit). Faith and works are like a two-coupon ticket to heaven. The coupon of works is not good for passage and the coupon of faith is not valid if void of works.
Faith that is lost was never firmly rooted in Christ and established from the start. Faith that people lose is shallow temporary belief that has no root. This kind of faith may wither away, but not genuine saving faith in Christ.
Working out our salvation to attain eternal life is not stating otherwise as if we have not attained it yet?
Not automatically. Christ's work sufficiently paid for the sins of the world, but the world can only be saved through Him BY FAITH, not automatically saved by Him without faith.
Oxymoron.
Saved through faith which is belief, trust, reliance in Christ alone for salvation. A synergistic cooperative, working relationship is the result of having been saved through faith. Saved believers are in this relationship with Christ BECAUSE they are saved.
No misunderstanding. It's a fact!
Yet you say by man being faithful in all things, he receives eternal life. That is salvation based on man's performance/works which equates to man saving himself. You can't have it both ways.
Man attains eternal life through faith. Man works with God toward becoming Christ like BECAUSE he is saved, not to become saved. You continue to confuse Justification with ongoing Sanctification.
That work is accomplished out of faith, but is not faith itself. Faith is faith and works are works.
Which demonstrates that faith was never firmly rooted and established from the start. Never saved.
1 Corinthians 3:14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; (OF REWARD) but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. The reward here is not salvation. Why would I believe that Satan will also have eternal life? In James 2:19, nobody is questioning the fact that the demons also believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they DO NOT believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. I believe "mental assent" that George Washington existed and I also believe in the historical facts about George Washington, but I am not trusting in George Washington to save my soul. See the difference? Saving belief/faith is more than just an "intellectual acknowledgment" to the existence and historical facts about Christ. Satan believes that, but is not saved. Saving belief/faith completely trusts in Christ's finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation. Not in Christ plus our works/performance/traditions/church but IN CHRIST ALONE.
Scripture is not the truth? What have you been smoking?
The Bible is God's Written Word and Jesus is the Living Word. You are incorrect again. Both churches teach works salvation. Difference in style, but same in substance. Works based false gospel. Either we are saved by working or else we are saved by believing (Romans 4:5). Either Christ did it all or we at least did some of it. You can't have it both ways.
You just said it. Eternal life is through OUR WORKING. Salvation is through BELIEVING IN HIM/FAITH and not our working (Romans 4:5-6). Our working which follows is a result of our faith (ongoing Sanctification) and receiving salvation. Believers work from salvation, not for salvation.
Faith that claims to be genuine (James 2:14) but demonstrates that it's dead because it is alone (barren of works) is hell. Faith that trusts in Christ alone for salvation (that is not barren of works because it's a living faith) is heaven.
Read the entire verse. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness. Thisequates to "servants of obedience unto righteousness".We are either "servants of sin unto death" or "servants of obedience unto righteousness." READ IT ALL.
What did they obey in order to become servants of righteousness? They obeyed the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16; 1:16). 1 Peter 1:22 - Purified your souls in obeying the truth; Acts 15:9 - Purified their hearts by FAITH.
True, and not possible to be a servant of righteousness unless one has become righteous first. Romans 10:10 - ..BELIEVES unto righteousness. Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness. That is the point in which we then become servants of righteousness.
One is a servant of sin and remains that way until he obeys God's will to become saved by BELIEVING IN HIM (John 6:40); BELIEVES unto righteousness (Romans 10:10); BELIEVES IN HIM/FAITH is accounted for righteousness (Romans 4:5); then he starts obeying God's will for his life/doing righteousness. Children of God practice righteousness BECAUSE they are children of God and not to become children of God. You have it backwards.
What did they obey in order to become servants of righteousness? They obeyed the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16; 1:16). 1 Peter 1:22 - Purified your souls in obeying the truth; Acts 15:9 - Purified their hearts by FAITH.
True, and not possible to be a servant of righteousness unless one has become righteous first. Romans 10:10 - ..BELIEVES unto righteousness. Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness. That is the point in which we then become servants of righteousness.
One is a servant of sin and remains that way until he obeys God's will to become saved by BELIEVING IN HIM (John 6:40); BELIEVES unto righteousness (Romans 10:10); BELIEVES IN HIM/FAITH is accounted for righteousness (Romans 4:5); then he starts obeying God's will for his life/doing righteousness. Children of God practice righteousness BECAUSE they are children of God and not to become children of God. You have it backwards.
It can pass, it is the closest explanation yet.
again you look for proof texts which are not even addressing the issue. This context has Paul showing that God is faithful. That He has a plan for man and will not forsake them. Paul is not addressing the issue of how one is saved. He is not addressing faith or works.
Explain to me that if faith justifies, then how can no faith justify? If that is possible then any unbeliever is also justified because he has no faith, but that does not matter.
quite incorrect as to the saved status. They are working out their salvation from a status of having possession of it. It all depends on one's faithfulness. If one loses faith, they are no longer justified. If one does not repent, confess his sins prior to death, they will not inherit eternal life. The word, believes, is always present tense, active and continuous or repentance if one leaves the fold.
Faith that produces fruit at some point in one's life then ceases to exist will not inherit eternal life. There are only two NT Books that does not address the aspect of losing faith and the dire consequences that will before a believer who loses faith. In every instance it is loss of eternal life, unless you think that being cast out with unbelievers, or being sent where there is gnashing of teeth is salvation.
Your theory of the life of a believer is a myth. It assumes first of all that man cannot fall. Worse it denies that Satan really exists and is fighting very hard to draw all believers away from Christ. There is a war in our inward parts but also a war against the principalities of this world, Satan.
yes,agreed, but man is a free agent. He is free to leave anytime.
Christ sufficient work has nothing to do with your faith and walk with God. Christ did not do your walk. Eternal life has obligations, conditions. If they are not me, one cannot inherit eternal life.
again you look for proof texts which are not even addressing the issue. This context has Paul showing that God is faithful. That He has a plan for man and will not forsake them. Paul is not addressing the issue of how one is saved. He is not addressing faith or works.
Explain to me that if faith justifies, then how can no faith justify? If that is possible then any unbeliever is also justified because he has no faith, but that does not matter.
quite incorrect as to the saved status. They are working out their salvation from a status of having possession of it. It all depends on one's faithfulness. If one loses faith, they are no longer justified. If one does not repent, confess his sins prior to death, they will not inherit eternal life. The word, believes, is always present tense, active and continuous or repentance if one leaves the fold.
Faith that produces fruit at some point in one's life then ceases to exist will not inherit eternal life. There are only two NT Books that does not address the aspect of losing faith and the dire consequences that will before a believer who loses faith. In every instance it is loss of eternal life, unless you think that being cast out with unbelievers, or being sent where there is gnashing of teeth is salvation.
Your theory of the life of a believer is a myth. It assumes first of all that man cannot fall. Worse it denies that Satan really exists and is fighting very hard to draw all believers away from Christ. There is a war in our inward parts but also a war against the principalities of this world, Satan.
yes,agreed, but man is a free agent. He is free to leave anytime.
Christ sufficient work has nothing to do with your faith and walk with God. Christ did not do your walk. Eternal life has obligations, conditions. If they are not me, one cannot inherit eternal life.
Faith is the root and works are the fruit of salvation.
Not quite. Fruit is evidence of faith. You do not have eternal life, you only possess it
which is why you are incorrect on two counts. You want to separate them. They cannot be separated. Faith alone is as much as hell as works alone. It is not Christ alone either just as it cannot be man alone. It is a mutual working relationship and a faithful one as well.
another mythical rationalization. It like saying a person is married for 50 years, then divorced and you say they were never married in the first place.
You have ONLY attained it at death IF YOU ARE IN CHRIST at that moment.
not quite either. The world is NOT saved by faith. I won't even ask the rhetorical question as to how this could be done. Otherwise you are correct but it still must be continuous and faithful.
Oxymoron.
Your second sentence is the content of salvation. Your last is unscriptural, since no one has inherited since it depends on our faithfulness. We possess eternal life when we enter into a relationship. Man is never saved individually by either faith alone or Christ alone. You will not find such a statement anywhere in scripture.
again, you are totally outside of scripture. It is not either or. It is both. We are being saved through faith. It is NOT that we have been saved.
quite the contrary. I don't have them confused at all. Man working with God can ONLY occur through faith. So faith is justified by works. You cannot separate them. If one loses faith 20 years after baptism, he has also lost justification. Justification means one has a correct relationhship. How can one have a correct relationship without faith when faith is what justifies?
agreed.
again, you have this concept that one is "past tense saved"when it is a promise of the future IF we are faithful.
It is neither. This person has salvation on other grounds. This pertains almost exclusively to priests, missionaries. those that teach. One is not saved by teaching, even incorrect treaching.
so now you agree that it is works through fait that saves. You said one only needs to believe and they are saved. Satan believes, thus he is saved. Your works have no bearing on being saved as you state.
Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. I believe "mental assent" that George Washington existed and I also believe in the historical facts about George Washington, but I am not trusting in George Washington to save my soul. See the difference?
Which is why Christ is the Truth. Scripture is a witness to the Revelation God gave to man.
which is why you are incorrect on two counts. You want to separate them. They cannot be separated. Faith alone is as much as hell as works alone. It is not Christ alone either just as it cannot be man alone. It is a mutual working relationship and a faithful one as well.
another mythical rationalization. It like saying a person is married for 50 years, then divorced and you say they were never married in the first place.
You have ONLY attained it at death IF YOU ARE IN CHRIST at that moment.
not quite either. The world is NOT saved by faith. I won't even ask the rhetorical question as to how this could be done. Otherwise you are correct but it still must be continuous and faithful.
Oxymoron.
Your second sentence is the content of salvation. Your last is unscriptural, since no one has inherited since it depends on our faithfulness. We possess eternal life when we enter into a relationship. Man is never saved individually by either faith alone or Christ alone. You will not find such a statement anywhere in scripture.
again, you are totally outside of scripture. It is not either or. It is both. We are being saved through faith. It is NOT that we have been saved.
quite the contrary. I don't have them confused at all. Man working with God can ONLY occur through faith. So faith is justified by works. You cannot separate them. If one loses faith 20 years after baptism, he has also lost justification. Justification means one has a correct relationhship. How can one have a correct relationship without faith when faith is what justifies?
agreed.
again, you have this concept that one is "past tense saved"when it is a promise of the future IF we are faithful.
It is neither. This person has salvation on other grounds. This pertains almost exclusively to priests, missionaries. those that teach. One is not saved by teaching, even incorrect treaching.
so now you agree that it is works through fait that saves. You said one only needs to believe and they are saved. Satan believes, thus he is saved. Your works have no bearing on being saved as you state.
Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. I believe "mental assent" that George Washington existed and I also believe in the historical facts about George Washington, but I am not trusting in George Washington to save my soul. See the difference?
absolutely no difference because the former does nothing as the second. That is why works is evidence of faith, trust.
You can say you believe, but without the evidence it is simply meaningless.
Satan even believes that because that is what defeated Him. I can assure you that Satan knows he has been defeated. He is working fevorously to gather as many believers away from Christ as possible before Christ comes again.
totally unbiblical. It only makes sense if it means one puts trust in money or government or whatever else. that is the ONLY way Christ ONLY would make sense in light of scripture.
[quoter]Scripture is not the truth? What have you been smoking? The Bible is God's Written Word and Jesus is the Living Word.
You can say you believe, but without the evidence it is simply meaningless.
Satan even believes that because that is what defeated Him. I can assure you that Satan knows he has been defeated. He is working fevorously to gather as many believers away from Christ as possible before Christ comes again.
totally unbiblical. It only makes sense if it means one puts trust in money or government or whatever else. that is the ONLY way Christ ONLY would make sense in light of scripture.
[quoter]Scripture is not the truth? What have you been smoking?
The Bible is God's Written Word and Jesus is the Living Word.
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This is an absolute FALSE accusation. Your true colors are really showing. I NEVER said that the writings of the Apostles/scripture are fallible, but the writings of the Church Fathers (which you base your primary arguments on) are fallible. Solid evidence is not found in fallible writings of men which can be in error or even manipulated. In post #656 you even stated that "Augustine has some heresies attached to him." So much for "thus saith the Fathers."
The writings of the ECF are not infallible and should be treated like writings of theologians today. Roman Catholic teaching holds that the word of God consists of both the written scriptures and the oral teachings. These oral traditions are known as the "sacred deposit" of tradition, and are binding upon Roman Catholics. It is to be expected that erroneous teachings would result from oral traditions. For this reason, traditions must be compared with God’s infallible Word. Christianity is not built on "Thus saith the Fathers." Christianity is founded on "Thus saith the Lord!"
I NEVER said that the writings of the Apostles/scripture are fallible, but the writings of the Church Fathers (which you base your primary arguments on) are fallible. Solid evidence is not found in fallible writings of men which can be in error or even manipulated. In post #656 you even stated that "Augustine has some heresies attached to him." So much for "thus saith the Fathers."The writings of the ECF are not infallible and should be treated like writings of theologians today. Roman Catholic teaching holds that the word of God consists of both the written scriptures and the oral teachings. These oral traditions are known as the "sacred deposit" of tradition, and are binding upon Roman Catholics. It is to be expected that erroneous teachings would result from oral traditions. For this reason, traditions must be compared with God’s infallible Word. Christianity is not built on "Thus saith the Fathers." Christianity is founded on "Thus saith the Lord!"
John 14:12
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.