Here's something that I realized the other day when talking/posting about who the generation is in Matthew 24:34. Everything that God does in way of the Jews is because of His eternal covenant with Abraham, every time God rescued them it was because of Abraham, I just read the story about Lot and he was rescued from the judgement of God because of Abraham. The Lord told the children of Israel that He was rescuing them because of the promises He made to Abraham. I believe we need to interpret prophecy with that in mind, when it comes to Israel.
DANGER OF A FALSE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE
- Thread starter samuel23
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Hey Rock, Sorry but we are all staying until after the tribulation to be raptured, and that tribulation is the wrath of Satan not the wrath of God. If God gave me a choice(which He has not) then I would vote for the pre-trib idea. If you really want the truth, Jesus taught a post-trib gathering of the church, Paul said the rapture could not occur until after the Antichrist, and John reported the church in Heaven after having gone through the great tribulation. Pre-trib...no where in the NT. It was a grand fantasy but never a reality.
Hey Pop, You can't be serious? Where in the bible does it say that every single human on the earth that does not receive the mark of the Beast is put to death...you have a very strange way of wrestling very strange meanings from scriptures that are easy to understand. The Beast goes after the Christians for sure, but that does not mean he kills every one. Jesus described this time in Matt 24: then shall they deliver you up and shall KILL you and you shall be hated of all nations...but he that shall ENDURE unto the end shall be saved. The Beast will not kill all the Christians by a long shot because Jesus concluded by saying to the survivors, He(Jesus) shall gather together His chosen from the four winds(all over the earth). Anyway, I have never ever heard anyone ever interpret that scripture to mean that the Beast will kill every single human that does not take his mark...that is a new one on me.
II Timothy 2: 16-18 "But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness,17 and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,18 who have swerved from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already happened. They are upsetting the faith of some."
If the Rapture were a True Happening. All should know it would not happen until after the Antichrist has appeared.
2 Thessalonians 1: 1-4 Now we beseech you brethren by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and by our gathering together unto him. 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind or be troubled neither by spirit nor by word nor by letter as from us as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first and that man of sin be revealed the son of perdition. 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God or that worshipped so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God shewing himself that he is God.
2 Thessalonians 1: 1-4 Now we beseech you brethren by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and by our gathering together unto him. 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind or be troubled neither by spirit nor by word nor by letter as from us as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first and that man of sin be revealed the son of perdition. 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God or that worshipped so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God shewing himself that he is God.
I might also add the Antichrist won't be killing people. You have to use common sense. To have people killed surly wouldn't get him the followers he will have. Daniel 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to PROSPER in his hands and he shall magnify himself in his heart and by PEACE shall destroy many he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes but he shall be broken without hand. This is a spiritual destruction of people not to physically kill people.
Morning buddyt,
The only problem with your theory of people not being physically killed by the antichrist, is that John sees those of the great tribulation saints who will have been beheaded. So, that pretty much kills the idea of spiritual destruction.
"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
The scripture above demonstrates that many of those saints during the great tribulation, who will not have worshiped the beast, his image nor received his mark, will have been beheaded. After that, John sees them come back to life (resurrect), which takes place after the Lord returns to the earth to end the age.
The only problem with your theory of people not being physically killed by the antichrist, is that John sees those of the great tribulation saints who will have been beheaded. So, that pretty much kills the idea of spiritual destruction.
"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
The scripture above demonstrates that many of those saints during the great tribulation, who will not have worshiped the beast, his image nor received his mark, will have been beheaded. After that, John sees them come back to life (resurrect), which takes place after the Lord returns to the earth to end the age.
Point one: There is no 7 year tribulation. That is a mistranslation of Dan 9:27 probably stemming from the Albury Prophecy Conferences in late 1820's England. The history of the church has applied Dan 9:27 to Christ, not anti-christ. He was the one who established a strong covenant with many and who abolished sacrifice and offering after the three and a half years of his ministry.
Point two: Margaret McDonald got her Ideas from Edward Irving's assistant (A J Frost?) who was teaching her older brothers James and George about Irving's end time ideas.
Point three: Irving was a participant of the Albury conferences, along with Lady Powerscourt who started her own conferences in the early 1830s. This is where John Darby got many of his ideas that we now know as Dispensationalism.
Point 3.1 Irving and his family stayed at the estate of Lady Powerscourt in Aug 1830 so there is no doubt that Lady Powerscourt was familiar with Irving's ideas.
Point 4: The pre-trib rapture was also discussed at the Albury conferences as was the idea of dispensations. I know of no earlier reference to the pre-trib rapture in church history.
Point 5: John Darby embraced the distinction of the Jews and the church in order to discredit Mt 24 from applying to the church. He had to do this because Mt 24 clearly disproves the pre-trib rapture. The distinction of the Jews and the church also comes from the Albury conferences.
Point two: Margaret McDonald got her Ideas from Edward Irving's assistant (A J Frost?) who was teaching her older brothers James and George about Irving's end time ideas.
Point three: Irving was a participant of the Albury conferences, along with Lady Powerscourt who started her own conferences in the early 1830s. This is where John Darby got many of his ideas that we now know as Dispensationalism.
Point 3.1 Irving and his family stayed at the estate of Lady Powerscourt in Aug 1830 so there is no doubt that Lady Powerscourt was familiar with Irving's ideas.
Point 4: The pre-trib rapture was also discussed at the Albury conferences as was the idea of dispensations. I know of no earlier reference to the pre-trib rapture in church history.
Point 5: John Darby embraced the distinction of the Jews and the church in order to discredit Mt 24 from applying to the church. He had to do this because Mt 24 clearly disproves the pre-trib rapture. The distinction of the Jews and the church also comes from the Albury conferences.
What we are left with is the Biblical and historical position of a 3 1/2 year tribulation starting with the man of sin being revealed, and concluding with the resurrection (not rapture) of the living and dead saints. After this will be the time of God's wrath and the battle of Armageddon. I speculate this time of God's wrath could be either 30 or 45 days.
P
It says "..every man,woman and child,both bond and free takes the mark..."
You never even looked into it.
There lies our differences.
I proceed from the word,not doctrine.
Oh,I get it. You erroneously tie in " endure" to your doctrine. You made that up.
Go back and read it. IT SAYS " and they loved not their lives unto death"
Overcoming speaks of overcoming the flesh,sin,the devil,and "loving life", or "me-ism".
You don't study do you?
The AC is EMPOWERED to OVERCOME the saints.
Your doctrine has you guys somehow"preparing" for the GT,and "overcoming" the AC.
YOU GUYS LITERALLY MADE THAT UP. There is no such thing.
As far as the AC personally killing millions all by himself,no he has it done,like Hitler did. Nonetheless we would normally say "Hitler killed millions of Jews"
You never even looked into it.
There lies our differences.
I proceed from the word,not doctrine.
Oh,I get it. You erroneously tie in " endure" to your doctrine. You made that up.
Go back and read it. IT SAYS " and they loved not their lives unto death"
Overcoming speaks of overcoming the flesh,sin,the devil,and "loving life", or "me-ism".
You don't study do you?
The AC is EMPOWERED to OVERCOME the saints.
Your doctrine has you guys somehow"preparing" for the GT,and "overcoming" the AC.
YOU GUYS LITERALLY MADE THAT UP. There is no such thing.
As far as the AC personally killing millions all by himself,no he has it done,like Hitler did. Nonetheless we would normally say "Hitler killed millions of Jews"
P
Margaret Mcdonald believed the church had to go through the GT for cleansing. Funny how that backfires on non pretribs.
I always get a kick out of those who repeat "teachers" trusting they are telling the truth.
Picture a group of protesters wearing Margaret McDonald tee shirts,and unaware they support her views,while carrying Anti-McDonald signs that say she was crazy.
Too funny
I always get a kick out of those who repeat "teachers" trusting they are telling the truth.
Picture a group of protesters wearing Margaret McDonald tee shirts,and unaware they support her views,while carrying Anti-McDonald signs that say she was crazy.
Too funny
im not sure its dangerous to believe in pre-trib if some sincerely believes the bible teaches it, so therefore they are NOT willingly rejecting the truth as you say.
Me personally, im not a pre-tribber, BUT, i would like to be. The idea makes logical sense to me for sure, and there are old testament examples of God delivering His people, but I cant see it in scripture.
The only passage they got is 1 thessalonians 4:16-18 and the problem is that its talking about being caught up in the clouds WHEN? at the COMING of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in my mind, there is only one second coming, not a third one. So that defeats the whole thing in my mind.
I will continue praying about it, if someone here can prove to me that there are more than one second coming, im all ears because logically the pre-trib rapture does line up nicely, i just find the scripture evidence lacking.
(no disrespect to nobody)
Me personally, im not a pre-tribber, BUT, i would like to be. The idea makes logical sense to me for sure, and there are old testament examples of God delivering His people, but I cant see it in scripture.
The only passage they got is 1 thessalonians 4:16-18 and the problem is that its talking about being caught up in the clouds WHEN? at the COMING of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in my mind, there is only one second coming, not a third one. So that defeats the whole thing in my mind.
I will continue praying about it, if someone here can prove to me that there are more than one second coming, im all ears because logically the pre-trib rapture does line up nicely, i just find the scripture evidence lacking.
(no disrespect to nobody)
Hi Issa: One can believe what they want to, however there is no such thing as a pre-trib rapture in the New testament, it was created by John Darby around 1830. People love it because it is a supposed way out of the tribulation. It is dangerous because it is a set up by Satan designed to cause a great falling away from the faith when Christ does not come as expected.
I have the McDonald quote somewhere. If I remember correctly, she predicted a partial pre-tribulation resurrection; those counted worthy would be translated.
My point was not that the pre-trib rapture idea came from her but that she got her ideas from Irving who helped develop it and the Albury Conferences.
I consider Margaret McDonald to be irrelevant in the origins of the pre-trib rapture idea. I believe Dave MacPherson is the one who credits her with the origin. But I have proven that she got the idea from Irving - whatever her idea may have been.
The pretrib rapture idea was first invented at the Albury Prophesy Conferences in late 1820's England. Edward Irving attended these and Lady Powerscourt attended at least one. Lady Powerscourt, a family friend of the Irvings, held her own conferences in early 1830s. Darby came to these and this is where he got the idea of the pre-trib rapture and the better part of Dispensationalism in general.
One of my greatest concerns about the (I believe, false) teaching of the pretrib rapture is all the people who will have a crisis of faith when they realize that they are in the tribulation and they can no longer believe what they have been taught about the Bible. They have come to rely on man made doctrine instead of the living Christ of the Bible. Then, when they need Christ most of all, they will question everything they have been taught about the Bible, including the death burial and resurrection of the Savior.
Another concern is that as I grew out my own Dispensational indoctrination, the Bible made a lot more sense to me. I understood the New Covenant better for one, but also all the end times verses fell into place and made sense in the context of a 3 1/2 year tribulation. (There is no 7 year tribulation. AntiChrist does not make a covenant with anyone. It is Christ who spent 3 1/2 years proclaiming the New Covenant and, after the 3 1/2 years of His ministry, abolished sacrifice and offering. Dn 9:27) False doctrine hides the truth of the Bible and makes it harder to know and live the truth of Christ in our lives.
There are many more consequence of believing false doctrine about the end times but these are two that I'll mention.
Another concern is that as I grew out my own Dispensational indoctrination, the Bible made a lot more sense to me. I understood the New Covenant better for one, but also all the end times verses fell into place and made sense in the context of a 3 1/2 year tribulation. (There is no 7 year tribulation. AntiChrist does not make a covenant with anyone. It is Christ who spent 3 1/2 years proclaiming the New Covenant and, after the 3 1/2 years of His ministry, abolished sacrifice and offering. Dn 9:27) False doctrine hides the truth of the Bible and makes it harder to know and live the truth of Christ in our lives.
There are many more consequence of believing false doctrine about the end times but these are two that I'll mention.
Hello Earnest,
What you are referring to above is a well known and well used apologetic. I have never read anything by Darby or Edward Irving. My conclusion of the timing of the gathering of the church comes from cross-referencing and comparing scripture, with the confirmation of the Holy Spirit.
When a believer receives Christ as Lord and savior, that person is credited with righteousness and has been reconciled to God. The wrath that we deserve as a result of our sins, was satisfied by Christ, fully and completely. That being true, the Lord is not going to send his church through his wrath, when Christ was already held accountable for it. Anyone who says otherwise does not understand what Christ truly did for us and does not understand the severity of the coming wrath of God nor does that person understand who God's wrath will be directed at. God is not going to punish the righteous with the unrighteous.
In the letter to Philadelphia, Jesus said "because you have you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you out of the time of tribulation that is coming upon the whole world to test those dwell upon the earth."
Jesus told his disciples and all believers, that he was going to the Father's house to prepare rooms for us and that he would come back and take us back to the Father's house, so that where he is we may be also. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 is a detailed account of that event when Jesus returns to gather his church. Since scripture makes it clear that we are not appointed to suffer wrath, then believers will not go through it, but will be removed before the day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath.
What you are referring to above is a well known and well used apologetic. I have never read anything by Darby or Edward Irving. My conclusion of the timing of the gathering of the church comes from cross-referencing and comparing scripture, with the confirmation of the Holy Spirit.
When a believer receives Christ as Lord and savior, that person is credited with righteousness and has been reconciled to God. The wrath that we deserve as a result of our sins, was satisfied by Christ, fully and completely. That being true, the Lord is not going to send his church through his wrath, when Christ was already held accountable for it. Anyone who says otherwise does not understand what Christ truly did for us and does not understand the severity of the coming wrath of God nor does that person understand who God's wrath will be directed at. God is not going to punish the righteous with the unrighteous.
In the letter to Philadelphia, Jesus said "because you have you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you out of the time of tribulation that is coming upon the whole world to test those dwell upon the earth."
Jesus told his disciples and all believers, that he was going to the Father's house to prepare rooms for us and that he would come back and take us back to the Father's house, so that where he is we may be also. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 is a detailed account of that event when Jesus returns to gather his church. Since scripture makes it clear that we are not appointed to suffer wrath, then believers will not go through it, but will be removed before the day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath.
Last edited: