DANGER OF A FALSE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE
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P
Samuel you won't leave it alone Will ya, the Lord hates a person who causes strife among his brothers.
I believe in the second coming of Jesus Christ. I just believe the saints are with him when he comes.
All through the new testament Jesus was called a Nazarene.....he wasn't. Does that mean their unsaved?
Do you know what the name of John means? It means " graced by God" maybe you should ask for some of that grace to see what you are missing.
This view on post, mid, pre, trib has been debated for yrs. Brother you have to learn to agree to disagree.
To say that the teaching is from Satan is a pretty bold statement which I would not want to be in your shoes. Ever considered if your wrong? The Pharisees said this about Jesus and his healings, how do you think they faired?
I stand with the hope of leaving dodge before the Lord says times up. I believe he can do it and will. How do my beliefs discredit yours?
I believe in the second coming of Jesus Christ. I just believe the saints are with him when he comes.
All through the new testament Jesus was called a Nazarene.....he wasn't. Does that mean their unsaved?
Do you know what the name of John means? It means " graced by God" maybe you should ask for some of that grace to see what you are missing.
This view on post, mid, pre, trib has been debated for yrs. Brother you have to learn to agree to disagree.
To say that the teaching is from Satan is a pretty bold statement which I would not want to be in your shoes. Ever considered if your wrong? The Pharisees said this about Jesus and his healings, how do you think they faired?
I stand with the hope of leaving dodge before the Lord says times up. I believe he can do it and will. How do my beliefs discredit yours?
Good day RickyZ,
"For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man."
It will be business as usual right up to when the church is gathered with the wrath of God to follow, just like in the days of Noah. When the church is removed from the earth, from that point on, the earth will never be the same. For the righteous will no longer be on the earth and the wrath of God will begin to be poured out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
"For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man."
It will be business as usual right up to when the church is gathered with the wrath of God to follow, just like in the days of Noah. When the church is removed from the earth, from that point on, the earth will never be the same. For the righteous will no longer be on the earth and the wrath of God will begin to be poured out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
RickyZ.. you said"in preparation for the Trial he and his family would SEE Fall upon the world.....A TRIAL---really THE END for everyone outside of the ARK.
you said:"Suppose Noah didn't believe God would put him thru such a thing and didn't build the boat?",,
Back then God spoke to people directly. What would you have done....Refuse to build it.? I mean here you are prepping for a disaster. The Bible tells us in Rev. 6:15-16,,, those of you who HIDE from the wrath of GOD.......welll you read it...
Hello EarnesQ,
First of all, the belief that the 7th trumpet of the trumpet judgments, is synonymous with "the last trumpet" mentioned in 1 Cor.15:52, is a false assumption. Just because the there are seven trumpets, does not mean that the 7th trumpet is to be assigned as being "the last trumpet." There are many different types of trumpets, with different purposes and meanings throughout scripture.
The trumpet judgments, like the seals and bowls, are all events of God's wrath and are not blessings. In addition, you will not find anything in the context of the 7th trumpet, either before or after, that demonstrates that a resurrection is taking place. Not only that, but if there was a resurrection taking place there, it would mean that the living believers in Christ would have gone through all of the seals and the first six trumpet judgments, which are part of God's wrath.
Well, you need to be convinced that there is a seven year end time period. Here is the reason why: In Daniel 9:24, we are told that seventy 'sevens' were decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem, i.e. seventy seven year periods.
7 Seven year periods to restore and rebuild Jerusalem
62 seven year periods, at the end of which the Messiah was cut off, which was Christ crucified.
That accounts for sixty-nine of the seventy seven year periods. Daniel 9:27 deals with that last seven years, which has yet to be fulfilled. When the Messiah was cut off, God put paused that last seven years and began to build the church. Once the church has been completed, the Lord will appear and gather the church, removing them from the earth. Following that, God will then pick up where he left off initiating that last seven years in fulfillment of the decreed of seventy seven year periods, with Christ returning at the end of that seven years to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.
Forgive me, but the above is simply ridiculous! Your are saying that Darby affects all translations of scripture and that I can't know anything outside of what Darby teaches? Darby has nothing to do with the Hebrew and Greek scriptures unless you are reading his commentaries, otherwise it is the word of God. I compare and cross-reference the scriptures found in the word of God, not Darby. Darby didn't writ 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 nor 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 or John 14:1-3 nor any of it. He simply commented on Biblical issues, which one would have to read, believe and follow in order to be swayed by his teachings.
Well, I'm happy to disappoint you, because I have come to a pre-trib gathering of the church by studying the word of God by itself, as have many others. Neither Darby, Calvin nor Margret have any bearing on my knowledge of scripture. And frankly I am tired of being accused of it. I don't own a Darby bible. I have an application that allows me to look at all of the major translations all at once for any given verse and Darby has nothing to do with them.
"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."
First of all, the belief that the 7th trumpet of the trumpet judgments, is synonymous with "the last trumpet" mentioned in 1 Cor.15:52, is a false assumption. Just because the there are seven trumpets, does not mean that the 7th trumpet is to be assigned as being "the last trumpet." There are many different types of trumpets, with different purposes and meanings throughout scripture.
The trumpet judgments, like the seals and bowls, are all events of God's wrath and are not blessings. In addition, you will not find anything in the context of the 7th trumpet, either before or after, that demonstrates that a resurrection is taking place. Not only that, but if there was a resurrection taking place there, it would mean that the living believers in Christ would have gone through all of the seals and the first six trumpet judgments, which are part of God's wrath.
Well, you need to be convinced that there is a seven year end time period. Here is the reason why: In Daniel 9:24, we are told that seventy 'sevens' were decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem, i.e. seventy seven year periods.
7 Seven year periods to restore and rebuild Jerusalem
62 seven year periods, at the end of which the Messiah was cut off, which was Christ crucified.
That accounts for sixty-nine of the seventy seven year periods. Daniel 9:27 deals with that last seven years, which has yet to be fulfilled. When the Messiah was cut off, God put paused that last seven years and began to build the church. Once the church has been completed, the Lord will appear and gather the church, removing them from the earth. Following that, God will then pick up where he left off initiating that last seven years in fulfillment of the decreed of seventy seven year periods, with Christ returning at the end of that seven years to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.
Forgive me, but the above is simply ridiculous! Your are saying that Darby affects all translations of scripture and that I can't know anything outside of what Darby teaches? Darby has nothing to do with the Hebrew and Greek scriptures unless you are reading his commentaries, otherwise it is the word of God. I compare and cross-reference the scriptures found in the word of God, not Darby. Darby didn't writ 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 nor 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 or John 14:1-3 nor any of it. He simply commented on Biblical issues, which one would have to read, believe and follow in order to be swayed by his teachings.
Well, I'm happy to disappoint you, because I have come to a pre-trib gathering of the church by studying the word of God by itself, as have many others. Neither Darby, Calvin nor Margret have any bearing on my knowledge of scripture. And frankly I am tired of being accused of it. I don't own a Darby bible. I have an application that allows me to look at all of the major translations all at once for any given verse and Darby has nothing to do with them.
"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."
Here is something for the deceived pre-trib folks to kick around. I was pre-trib for years because that is what we were all taught thanks to John Darby. I studied the bible a lot and I thought it strange that Jesus gave the church a post-trib rapture, I assumed I was missing something. It kept bothering me and one day I decided to REALLY LOOK AT THE BIBLE. It took me about an hour to realize that the NT teaches a post-trib rapture and that there is no such thing as a pre-trib rapture in the bible. Several years and a lot of bible study later it begin to bother me that I recognized that there was no pre-trib rapture, while most Christians believed in a pre-trib rapture. I was out in the woods praying one day when suddenly into my mind came a book, chapter, and verse from the bible. I thought, I believe the Lord just showed me something. I do not know the bible by chapter and verse, so I had no idea what it might mean. Anyway I raced in the house and opened my bible to the place, it was an answer to my question of why I understood how false the pre-trib rapture was when others did not seem to see it...the words were, to you has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom but to them it has not been given.
I wasn't taught by Darby, but have done my own personal studies for many years. I was not taught this belief by anyone, but came to the conclusions based on cross-referencing and comparing scripture.
And where are those scriptures that lead you to the conclusion that the church is gathered after the tribulation of God's wrath?
The "You" in the verse above, is directed at all true believers, not just you. Jesus said this when the disciples asked him why he spoke in parables to that generation of Israel. It was because of the prophecy in Isaiah that Jesus spoke to them in parables, but to those who are the Lord's sheep (the church), the knowledge of the kingdom has been given to us.
Yours and others on-going problem, is that you leave out other pertinent exegetical information in forming your conclusion. And when anyone raises a scripture issue that denies what you are claiming, you simply use and existing apologetic or invent one. It is too bad that you don't include all of the exegetical information to form your conclusion. But you are so concerned about protecting your adopted belief, that you just continue to protect it instead of considering the information that is being presented to you.
And where are those scriptures that lead you to the conclusion that the church is gathered after the tribulation of God's wrath?
The "You" in the verse above, is directed at all true believers, not just you. Jesus said this when the disciples asked him why he spoke in parables to that generation of Israel. It was because of the prophecy in Isaiah that Jesus spoke to them in parables, but to those who are the Lord's sheep (the church), the knowledge of the kingdom has been given to us.
Yours and others on-going problem, is that you leave out other pertinent exegetical information in forming your conclusion. And when anyone raises a scripture issue that denies what you are claiming, you simply use and existing apologetic or invent one. It is too bad that you don't include all of the exegetical information to form your conclusion. But you are so concerned about protecting your adopted belief, that you just continue to protect it instead of considering the information that is being presented to you.
M
No, no, no. The seals come before God's wrath. You should check out Rev. 6 sometime. A really good yarn. Oh and Joel 2:31 - the wrath of God comes only after the cosmic signs which occur at the two final seals of Rev. 6.
So, both Joel 2:31 AND Revelation 6 both indicate the wrath of God comes only after the cosmic signs.
You have to remember the other gigantically awkward thing for PreTrib doctrine...in that is is proposing the Lord Jesus taught false doctrine to Peter, James and John...went He sent them out from His Olivet Discourse with the understanding that the first event they should look for was the Abomination of Desolation.
I mean...that's false doctrine, according to PreTrib. PreTrib is forced to categorize the Lord Jesus as a false teacher. Fairly awkward stuff.
So, both Joel 2:31 AND Revelation 6 both indicate the wrath of God comes only after the cosmic signs.
You have to remember the other gigantically awkward thing for PreTrib doctrine...in that is is proposing the Lord Jesus taught false doctrine to Peter, James and John...went He sent them out from His Olivet Discourse with the understanding that the first event they should look for was the Abomination of Desolation.
I mean...that's false doctrine, according to PreTrib. PreTrib is forced to categorize the Lord Jesus as a false teacher. Fairly awkward stuff.
P
Well let's see how will listen to the post trib sermon and raise their hand to receive Christ.
Jesus died for your sins and if you accept him today when the Lord brings his wrath to this earth you may have to endure hardship. You may have to give up your life. You may have to watch family members and love ones suffer like never before. You may be hunted down like a wounded animal for your faith. Etc etc etc
But remember you have a loving God who will spare you on the other side of this life.
Even though we are not appointed to wrath we must endure it. For we are saved from the second death only.
But preacher I thought the second death was for the unbeliever, doesn't our faith in Christ count for anything?...
Did not the Lord say to Abraham he would not judge the wicked with the righteous?
Jesus died for your sins and if you accept him today when the Lord brings his wrath to this earth you may have to endure hardship. You may have to give up your life. You may have to watch family members and love ones suffer like never before. You may be hunted down like a wounded animal for your faith. Etc etc etc
But remember you have a loving God who will spare you on the other side of this life.
Even though we are not appointed to wrath we must endure it. For we are saved from the second death only.
But preacher I thought the second death was for the unbeliever, doesn't our faith in Christ count for anything?...
Did not the Lord say to Abraham he would not judge the wicked with the righteous?
The seals are God's wrath, as well as the trumpets and the bowl judgments.
Sir, I live in the book of Revelation and have for many years. I assure that I have gone over Rev.6 many times and will continue to go back to it. I already know what you are inferring regarding Rev.6 and it is your lack of understanding of the statement "for the great day of their wrath has come and who can endure." The words "has come" is in the Arorist tense and that announcement includes what will have previously taken place, namely the seals, as well as the wrath that follows the 6th seal.
If Jesus wasn't telling that information to his disciples so that believers throughout the church period could read it here in scripture, how else would we know about it? Using your same reasoning, Jesus was speaking to Peter, James and John, yet, they have long since died and so the information could not have possibly been directed at them. It is directed to those who will be on the earth to experience that time of God's wrath and the reign of the antichrist.
Sir, I live in the book of Revelation and have for many years. I assure that I have gone over Rev.6 many times and will continue to go back to it. I already know what you are inferring regarding Rev.6 and it is your lack of understanding of the statement "for the great day of their wrath has come and who can endure." The words "has come" is in the Arorist tense and that announcement includes what will have previously taken place, namely the seals, as well as the wrath that follows the 6th seal.
If Jesus wasn't telling that information to his disciples so that believers throughout the church period could read it here in scripture, how else would we know about it? Using your same reasoning, Jesus was speaking to Peter, James and John, yet, they have long since died and so the information could not have possibly been directed at them. It is directed to those who will be on the earth to experience that time of God's wrath and the reign of the antichrist.
Uh, yeah, just like the tribulation judgments are a trial and pretty much the end for everyone outside of Christendom. Sorry I don't see the conflict.
God still speaks to people directly. What do you think took us 2,000 miles across the country to a house with a safe room built in? I'm sorry if you haven't heard from Him lately, but I think most of us here hear from Him on a regular basis.
And who's hiding? Was Noah hiding from God in his boat? Tribulation IS a disaster - have you not read that? God knows about this place. He set it up. For His purposes, for His people in time of need. We've already discussed the fact that even tho I'm putting this together I may not be the one to get any benefit from it. I'm not hiding from anyone. Least of all God. He tells us to prepare, and that's what I'm doing.
God still speaks to people directly. What do you think took us 2,000 miles across the country to a house with a safe room built in? I'm sorry if you haven't heard from Him lately, but I think most of us here hear from Him on a regular basis.
And who's hiding? Was Noah hiding from God in his boat? Tribulation IS a disaster - have you not read that? God knows about this place. He set it up. For His purposes, for His people in time of need. We've already discussed the fact that even tho I'm putting this together I may not be the one to get any benefit from it. I'm not hiding from anyone. Least of all God. He tells us to prepare, and that's what I'm doing.
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John 12:25
Anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
John 15:19
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
James 4:4
Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? Whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
1 John 2:15
Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
2 Corinthians 12:10
That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
1 Corinthians 4:11
Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwelling place; [SUP]12 [/SUP]And labor, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it: [SUP]13 [/SUP]Being defamed, we entreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the off scouring of all things unto this day. [SUP]14 [/SUP]I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you."
Matthew 5:3
“Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 4 Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted. 5 Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. 6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled. 7 Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy. 8 Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. 9 Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God. 10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11 Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Luke 6:20
“Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God. 21 Blessed are you who hunger now, for you will be satisfied. Blessed are you who weep now, for you will laugh. 22 Blessed are you when people hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man. 23 “Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their ancestors treated the prophets. 24 “But woe to you who are rich, for you have already received your comfort. 25 Woe to you who are well fed now, for you will go hungry. Woe to you who laugh now, for you will mourn and weep. 26 Woe to you when everyone speaks well of you, for that is how their ancestors treated the false prophets.
Matthew 10:22
You will be hated by everyone because of Me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.
Philippians 1:21
For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24 but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. 25 Convinced of this, I know that I will remain, and I will continue with all of you for your progress and joy in the faith
1 Thessalonians 3:7
Therefore, brothers and sisters, in all our distress and persecution we were encouraged about you because of your faith. 8 For now we really live, since you are standing firm in the Lord.
*
You preach anything BUT persecution in this world and you sow seeds among rocks who will wither away when the heat's on.
Anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
John 15:19
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
James 4:4
Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? Whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
1 John 2:15
Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
2 Corinthians 12:10
That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
1 Corinthians 4:11
Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwelling place; [SUP]12 [/SUP]And labor, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it: [SUP]13 [/SUP]Being defamed, we entreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the off scouring of all things unto this day. [SUP]14 [/SUP]I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you."
Matthew 5:3
“Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 4 Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted. 5 Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. 6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled. 7 Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy. 8 Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. 9 Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God. 10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11 Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Luke 6:20
“Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God. 21 Blessed are you who hunger now, for you will be satisfied. Blessed are you who weep now, for you will laugh. 22 Blessed are you when people hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man. 23 “Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their ancestors treated the prophets. 24 “But woe to you who are rich, for you have already received your comfort. 25 Woe to you who are well fed now, for you will go hungry. Woe to you who laugh now, for you will mourn and weep. 26 Woe to you when everyone speaks well of you, for that is how their ancestors treated the false prophets.
Matthew 10:22
You will be hated by everyone because of Me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.
Philippians 1:21
For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24 but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. 25 Convinced of this, I know that I will remain, and I will continue with all of you for your progress and joy in the faith
1 Thessalonians 3:7
Therefore, brothers and sisters, in all our distress and persecution we were encouraged about you because of your faith. 8 For now we really live, since you are standing firm in the Lord.
*
You preach anything BUT persecution in this world and you sow seeds among rocks who will wither away when the heat's on.