Dear 'BibleGuy' . . .

Grace777x70 · Jun 23, 2016

jcha said:

Well then Jesus died in vain for us then if we are the ones that "achieve and maintain" righteousness.

I'll stick with the finished work of Christ and trust in Him only and the Holy Spirit in me to lead me in this life.

Romans 10:2-5 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.

[SUP]3 [/SUP] For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

[SUP]4 [/SUP] For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

[SUP]5 [/SUP] For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness.

BibleGuy · Jun 23, 2016

Dan_473 said:

Hi Dan,

You already criticized me for my long posts...

AND, you also criticized Paul himself (for talking too long in Ac. 20).

So now it's time for you to criticize JGIG.

Go ahead...please tell her that her posts are FULL OF TRANSGRESSION (per Pr. 10:19) because of her many words...

Unless maybe you've now changed your mind?

Or do you STILL oppose 1 Cor. 11:1 (and Php. 4:9) by choosing to CRITICIZE Paul (rather than IMITATE his use of lengthy discourse when necessary)?

Also...I'm sorry to see you are not able to share with us why you think my 11-point argument is flawed.

JGIG gave us NO REASON to dispute the logic or the premises. In fact, she has demonstrated failure to even understand the argument, it's logic, or its rational status.

And now you are following suit...likewise giving us NO REASON to dispute the logic or premises.

Hmmm.....seems that the anti-Torah critics among us continue to fail to defend their position against the Scriptural position I've brought forth.

I wish they would LEARN from this observation....

But sadly....many people here refuse to learn....and refuse to be tested.

So then....let my writings, here, be of benefit to the few among us who choose to learn and grow.

best...
BibleGuy

BibleGuy · Jun 23, 2016

Hello popeye,

I think maybe you want to know my belief regarding the deity of the Messiah?

Well...we could write a book here....but the Messiah (Jer. 23:5) will reign (in the future!) in Torah-obedient justice and righteousness, and He will be called: "יְהוָה צִדְקֵֽנוּ" that is, YHVH OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS!

So this Messiah IS YHVH...but is also a MAN (Zec. 6).

And, He will REBUILD the temple (Zec. 6)...even though JGIG does NOT want you to know that this entails restoration of Levitical sacrificial activity in that temple.

After all, the Messiah comes to RESTORE the very covenant with Levi (Mal. 3:1-4) so that the offerings unto YHVH will be pleasing to YHVH again as in the days of old, as in former years.

But JGIG does NOT want you to believe all this either....

So choose for yourself....but I choose to believe the Prophets (just like Paul, Ac. 24:14), not OPPOSE the prophets (just like JGIG who STRONGLY opposes the pro-torah viewpoint they set forth in their prophecies pertaining to FUTURE events which will REQUIRE Torah-obedience.)

You asked: "What group or organization teaches your doctrine?"

My response: The Father, Son, Spirit, Prophets, Psalmists, authors of Proverbs, Apostles, and a rapidly GROWING number of Christians globally who are walking into greater insight and revelation regarding their grafted-in ISRAELITE identity as Christians who PARTICIPATE in the Torah-laden covenants between YHVH and Israel, and who are GROWING in faithful obedience to the Torah of the Torah-laden covenants in which they participate.

It's time to get back to authentic and faithful Torah-obedient Biblical Christianity, just like it was in the 1st century. The restoration of all things is at hand.

Study any group or organization in enough detail...and you'll find something in need of growth....

But that's life! We ALL need to grow in grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

There are some pretty reliable sources of information, though, written by well-trained scholars who are EXCEEDINGLY better qualified than folks like JGIG. Ask me for details, if you're interested.

Some people, however, think they already have it figured out...thus they ALREADY know my position is wrong (even though they haven't even seen it set forth!)

That's pretty scary....pretending to know something when you don't....

That's why I take JGIG's views (and anyone's views) seriously....because it's always possible I'm wrong for some unknown reason...but then when I test the anti-Torah objections, then simply fail to hold water.

Go ahead...ask me if I accept or reject some (or another) premise in some anti-Torah argument....and we can have a friendly and well-reasoned truth-seeking conversation.

JGIG, on the other hand, REFUSES to even permit us to test her views. She REFUSES to tell us which specific premise she rejects, and she REFUSES to tell us why she rejects any specifically numbered premise.

Read through this thread and you'll see her problems which I've arduously endeavored to document.

blessings...
BibleGuy

Dan_473 · Jun 23, 2016

BibleGuy said:

Hi Dan,

You already criticized me for my long posts...

AND, you also criticized Paul himself (for talking too long in Ac. 20).

So now it's time for you to criticize JGIG.

Go ahead...please tell her that her posts are FULL OF TRANSGRESSION (per Pr. 10:19) because of her many words...

Unless maybe you've now changed your mind?

Or do you STILL oppose 1 Cor. 11:1 (and Php. 4:9) by choosing to CRITICIZE Paul (rather than IMITATE his use of lengthy discourse when necessary)?

Also...I'm sorry to see you are not able to share with us why you think my 11-point argument is flawed.

JGIG gave us NO REASON to dispute the logic or the premises. In fact, she has demonstrated failure to even understand the argument, it's logic, or its rational status.

And now you are following suit...likewise giving us NO REASON to dispute the logic or premises.

Hmmm.....seems that the anti-Torah critics among us continue to fail to defend their position against the Scriptural position I've brought forth.

I wish they would LEARN from this observation....

But sadly....many people here refuse to learn....and refuse to be tested.

So then....let my writings, here, be of benefit to the few among us who choose to learn and grow.

best...
BibleGuy

I believe what I posted was this:

PROVERBS 10:19 When words are many, transgression is not lacking

this applies to everyone

as does this
ECCLESIASTES 3:1 For everything there is a season, and a time for every matter under heaven

JGIG's op contains a warning that posts here will be long, so I believe this is the proper time.

jcha · Jun 23, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

Well then Jesus died in vain for us then if we are the ones that "achieve and maintain" righteousness.

I'll stick with the finished work of Christ and trust in Him only and the Holy Spirit in me to lead me in this life.

Romans 10:2-5 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.

[SUP]3 [/SUP] For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

[SUP]4 [/SUP] For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

[SUP]5[/SUP] For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness.

Can you explain please? I'm not understanding your train of thought.

Sirk · Jun 23, 2016

Dan_473 said:

I like how Ecclesiastes 6:11 says it: The more the words, the less the meaning, and how does that profit anyone?

popeye · Jun 23, 2016

BibleGuy said:

Hello popeye,

I think maybe you want to know my belief regarding the deity of the Messiah?

Well...we could write a book here....but the Messiah (Jer. 23:5) will reign (in the future!) in Torah-obedient justice and righteousness, and He will be called: "יְהוָה צִדְקֵֽנוּ" that is, YHVH OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS!

So this Messiah IS YHVH...but is also a MAN (Zec. 6).

And, He will REBUILD the temple (Zec. 6)...even though JGIG does NOT want you to know that this entails restoration of Levitical sacrificial activity in that temple.

After all, the Messiah comes to RESTORE the very covenant with Levi (Mal. 3:1-4) so that the offerings unto YHVH will be pleasing to YHVH again as in the days of old, as in former years.

But JGIG does NOT want you to believe all this either....

So choose for yourself....but I choose to believe the Prophets (just like Paul, Ac. 24:14), not OPPOSE the prophets (just like JGIG who STRONGLY opposes the pro-torah viewpoint they set forth in their prophecies pertaining to FUTURE events which will REQUIRE Torah-obedience.)

You asked: "What group or organization teaches your doctrine?"

My response: The Father, Son, Spirit, Prophets, Psalmists, authors of Proverbs, Apostles, and a rapidly GROWING number of Christians globally who are walking into greater insight and revelation regarding their grafted-in ISRAELITE identity as Christians who PARTICIPATE in the Torah-laden covenants between YHVH and Israel, and who are GROWING in faithful obedience to the Torah of the Torah-laden covenants in which they participate.

It's time to get back to authentic and faithful Torah-obedient Biblical Christianity, just like it was in the 1st century. The restoration of all things is at hand.

Study any group or organization in enough detail...and you'll find something in need of growth....

But that's life! We ALL need to grow in grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

There are some pretty reliable sources of information, though, written by well-trained scholars who are EXCEEDINGLY better qualified than folks like JGIG. Ask me for details, if you're interested.

Some people, however, think they already have it figured out...thus they ALREADY know my position is wrong (even though they haven't even seen it set forth!)

That's pretty scary....pretending to know something when you don't....

That's why I take JGIG's views (and anyone's views) seriously....because it's always possible I'm wrong for some unknown reason...but then when I test the anti-Torah objections, then simply fail to hold water.

Go ahead...ask me if I accept or reject some (or another) premise in some anti-Torah argument....and we can have a friendly and well-reasoned truth-seeking conversation.

JGIG, on the other hand, REFUSES to even permit us to test her views. She REFUSES to tell us which specific premise she rejects, and she REFUSES to tell us why she rejects any specifically numbered premise.

Read through this thread and you'll see her problems which I've arduously endeavored to document.

blessings...
BibleGuy

OK,yes,if you could name one or two.

popeye · Jun 23, 2016

well, uh,yeah, after 3 requests you hit all around it but never addressed it.

BibleGuy · Jun 23, 2016

Dan_473 said:

I see....so it's OK for JGIG to have long posts...but not for me?

Again, I object! That's INCONSISTENT, my friend.

Furthermore, 1 Cor. 11:1 and Php. 4:9 ALSO apply to us Christians....which means you can NOT criticize Paul's use of lengthy discourse in Ac. 21!

AND, when I imitate usage of lengthy discourse (akin to that used by Paul in Ac. 21), then you have NO GROUNDS for criticizing that usage.

best...
BibleGuy

BibleGuy · Jun 23, 2016

popeye said:

Sorry....I thought you would have gotten the message when I "liked" a subsequent post by someone who said Jesus is God, and who said we will be like Him. Remember?

best...
BibleGuy

Dan_473 · Jun 23, 2016

BibleGuy said:

ECCLESIASTES 3:1 For everything there is a season, and a time for every matter under heaven

if you want to talk about the length of posts, please open a new thread and I'll check it out.

BibleGuy · Jun 23, 2016

popeye said:

I've found that some people really seem to benefit from the following list (see below).

Of course, they are not perfect...and I don't agree with everything they set forth. I've even had some pleasant conversation sharing concerns about points of difference.

But that's the point...we all learn and grow together....

Perhaps others here could benefit as well?

Then again...perhaps others here will simply misinterpret and twist these scholar's views into something they don't even believe...

Hmmm....that sounds familiar! That's done here to me too!

Anyway, here's a short list:

Amazon.com: J.K. McKee: Books, Biography, Blog, Audiobooks, Kindle

Amazon.com: Tim Hegg: Books, Biography, Blog, Audiobooks, Kindle

https://www.amazon.com/They-Loved-Torah-Yeshuas-Followers/dp/1880226944/

And then there are the Torah-teachers at the more "popular" level....but they are more prone to occasional error, due to relatively inferior training....so seek them out yourself....test everything....hold on to the good.

After all, Jesus PERSONALLY AUTHORIZES TORAH-TEACHERS! (Mt. 23:34). And we should share that Torah-teaching with disciples of all nations (Mt. 28:20). So it's OK to learn Torah from good sources.

But there are MANY wolves in sheep clothing...because the last thing our Enemy wants to see is the people of God RETURNING to YHVH in full repentant obedience to ALL His instructions, thereby hastening our return to the land, the return of the Messiah, and the destruction of the lawlessness now running rampant globally...and even within the religious establishment itself....even here within this Thread!

There are plenty of good resources within the mainstream Christian world as well.

Christian philosophers this past 50 years have made an ENORMOUS impact upon the world of professional philosophy. But unless you follow in those circles, you are COMPLETELY unaware of what's been happening.

Scientific developments in teleological and cosmological reasoning have also significantly advanced the arguments of the natural theologian in recent decades.

And the Internet...wow...seems like an endless mine...full of treasures buried in the midst of a LOT of foolishness.

Anyway, hope that helps.

blessings...
BibleGuy

Angela53510 · Jun 23, 2016

Don't leave me out! I totally agree that what you have posted, BibleGuy, is not the truth revealed in the Bible.

And I read both Hebrew and Greek, and you are so wrong on every count!

"For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility." Eph. 2:14-16

fredoheaven · Jun 24, 2016

Dan_473 said:

Hi Sir Dan,

The KJV bible says:

1 Thes. 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Whilst, I am no fan of anyone in here, they maybe friends but the bible surely can prove all things. I do believe, that bible has the answers to the logical statement posted by Bibleguy. No.s 5-9 are the weak points that i see. Considering No.5 & 8 as examples and let me just simplify.

5. Dt. 8:3 refers to that which INCLUDES the written Torah of Moses (from 1 and 4).
===============================================================================

No. It was the written Law of Moses that included Deut.8:3.
================================================================================

8. "Rhema" (Mt. 4:4) is simply a citation of the Dt. 8:3 passage.
================================================================================

Nop. It is not the “Rhema” but the which was written (grapho) in the Law of Moses which was cited in Matthew 4:4

Thank you.

JGIG · Jun 24, 2016

.

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

14. You wrote: “After the Cross, the New Covenant, ratified by the Blood of Christ, God Himself in the flesh, is in effect, rendering the Old Covenant obsolete, and is entered into by faith and maintained by our Perfect, Permanent High Priest, Christ Jesus.”

My response: Obsolete…but NOT yet passed away. It is only READY (Gr. “engoos”, Heb. 8:13) to pass away, thereby confirming that it had NOT yet passed away as of the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of the book of Hebrews.

The Temple had not yet been destroyed at the time of the writing of the letter to the Hebrews, but even that was not what rendered the Old Covenant obsolete, but the Work of Christ and His Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood.

A plain reading of Hebrews 7-10 make this clear.

And BibleGuy, it's not "engoos" in Hebrews 8:13. That's not a word.

13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready [G1451 - eggys] to vanish away.

It'sG1451 - eggys

near, of place and position
1. near
2. those who are near access to God
  1. Jews, as opposed to those who are alien from God and his blessings
  2. The Rabbis used the term "to make nigh" as equivalent to "to make a proselyte"
of time
1. of times imminent and soon to come pass

The pronunciation is shown as en-gü's. So I guess you're going for phonetics there, but it does nothing to help folks find the definition to the word so they can decide for themselves what that passage is saying.

The Old Covenant still serves a purpose; it points sin out to mankind and points them to Christ. As a functioning covenant, however, it is demonstrably obsolete. And you seem to agree on that point, yet you keep trying to put people back into the Old Covenant. Curious.

-JGIG

JGIG · Jun 24, 2016

.

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

15. You wrote: “The New Covenant is a fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant…”

My response: Yes…but NOT a termination of the Abrahamic Covenant.

Correct. Galatians 3 tells us this:

17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18 For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

. . . which states that the Law did not nullify the Abrahamic covenant.

AND, have you not read that the Abrahamic Covenant is to be fulfilled IN CONJUNCTION with obedience to the Torah of the Mosaic Covenant? (Dt. 6:10).

Therefore, our participation in the Abrahamic Covenant REQUIRES our participation in the Mosaic Covenant (per Dt. 6:10) as well.

As has become your habit, you have posted a reference in support of your assertion that in no way says what you say it says. Here's Deut. 6:10 -

10 “And when the Lord your God brings you into the land that he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give you—with great and good cities that you did not build,

Alrighty then. That passage in no way states that "our participation in the Abrahamic Covenant REQUIRES our participation in the Mosaic Covenant."

-JGIG

JGIG · Jun 24, 2016

.

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

16. You wrote: “The entire letter to the Hebrews clarifies and instructs on both the superiority of the New Covenant in Christ (based on better promises) and the obsolescence of the Old Covenant.”

My response: Careful! You keep making this same mistake…

The Old Covenant is obsolete…but NOT yet passed away. It is only READY (Gr. “engoos”, Heb. 8:13) to pass away, thereby confirming that it had NOT yet passed away as of the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of the book of Hebrews.

This is basically a repeat of 'issue' 14, addressed two posts above.

fredoheaven · Jun 24, 2016

BibleGuy said:

Not even His disciples and His Apostles did faithfully obey the Law (TORAH) perfectly. If ever the Law (TORAH) keeping is for eternal life then there is NO NEED for Christ. There’s no need for the Father to send His Son to die on Calvary’s Tree and redeem us. Torah keeping does nothing of the eternal life. It’s only God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit that does it when someone trust Christ. The Triune God is at work in the redemption of mankind. What the Law did is to show us that we sinned, that we are incapable to save ourselves and it recorded the way to God, the way to truth and the way to life who is in our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, the great God and eternal life.

The Great Commission set forth in Matthew 28:20 is not a pre-cross teaching. It is after cross teaching. By the time, Christ is now going to ascend to heaven and to sit at the right hand of God.

ukok102nak · Jun 24, 2016

as it is written
:read:
1 Timothy 4:16
Take heed unto yourself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this you shall both save yourself, and them that hear you.

:ty:

godbless us all always

FreeNChrist · Jun 24, 2016

BibleGuy said:

Hello popeye,

I think maybe you want to know my belief regarding the deity of the Messiah?

Well...we could write a book here....but the Messiah (Jer. 23:5) will reign (in the future!) in Torah-obedient justice and righteousness, and He will be called: "יְהוָה צִדְקֵֽנוּ" that is, YHVH OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS!

So this Messiah IS YHVH...but is also a MAN (Zec. 6).

And, He will REBUILD the temple (Zec. 6)...even though JGIG does NOT want you to know that this entails restoration of Levitical sacrificial activity in that temple.

After all, the Messiah comes to RESTORE the very covenant with Levi (Mal. 3:1-4) so that the offerings unto YHVH will be pleasing to YHVH again as in the days of old, as in former years.

But JGIG does NOT want you to believe all this either....

So choose for yourself....but I choose to believe the Prophets (just like Paul, Ac. 24:14), not OPPOSE the prophets (just like JGIG who STRONGLY opposes the pro-torah viewpoint they set forth in their prophecies pertaining to FUTURE events which will REQUIRE Torah-obedience.)

You asked: "What group or organization teaches your doctrine?"

My response: The Father, Son, Spirit, Prophets, Psalmists, authors of Proverbs, Apostles, and a rapidly GROWING number of Christians globally who are walking into greater insight and revelation regarding their grafted-in ISRAELITE identity as Christians who PARTICIPATE in the Torah-laden covenants between YHVH and Israel, and who are GROWING in faithful obedience to the Torah of the Torah-laden covenants in which they participate.

It's time to get back to authentic and faithful Torah-obedient Biblical Christianity, just like it was in the 1st century. The restoration of all things is at hand.

Study any group or organization in enough detail...and you'll find something in need of growth....

But that's life! We ALL need to grow in grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

There are some pretty reliable sources of information, though, written by well-trained scholars who are EXCEEDINGLY better qualified than folks like JGIG. Ask me for details, if you're interested.

Some people, however, think they already have it figured out...thus they ALREADY know my position is wrong (even though they haven't even seen it set forth!)

That's pretty scary....pretending to know something when you don't....

That's why I take JGIG's views (and anyone's views) seriously....because it's always possible I'm wrong for some unknown reason...but then when I test the anti-Torah objections, then simply fail to hold water.

Go ahead...ask me if I accept or reject some (or another) premise in some anti-Torah argument....and we can have a friendly and well-reasoned truth-seeking conversation.

JGIG, on the other hand, REFUSES to even permit us to test her views. She REFUSES to tell us which specific premise she rejects, and she REFUSES to tell us why she rejects any specifically numbered premise.

Read through this thread and you'll see her problems which I've arduously endeavored to document.

blessings...
BibleGuy

...........

Dear 'BibleGuy' . . .

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