Define A Christian

[ForthAngel]

It explains why you are coming from the position you are coming from but scripture only mentions two classes:



John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

If I believe, I am not condemned. He that believeth not is condemned already. There is no third class discussed like "he that believeth and is carnal is condemned". My Bible doesn't have the third statement.

This is why I don't have to discuss it much further.

I actually have held this view for a while now. It's scriptural. The view you are presenting is unrepentance + disobedience + no good works = saved. That's contrary to scripture. Disobedience to God after salvation is antibiblical. I've already proven that. I didn't even know what Lordship salvation was til a few weeks ago when someone showed it to me here. Lordship salvation is biblical though and mirrors my own view which I attained from scripture alone long before I knew what Lordship salvation even was.

The born again man is justified by faith alone which is a gift from God and not a result of works. The regenerated man, being justified by God through faith, is indwelt by the Spirit of God who causes that man to walk according to his statutes and according to his will and in the good works prepared beforehand for him. These good deeds only mirror the faith he is justified by and are not a justification of themselves. They are merely an outward manifestation, not only proving the faith they are justified by, but completing it according to James, since faith without works is a dead faith, which means it is no faith at all.

 

[Chuckt]

I actually have held this view for a while now. It's scriptural. The view you are presenting is unrepentance + disobedience + no good works = saved. That's contrary to scripture.

No. I never said that.

All the repentance you need is in the word "believe" and I will clarify what I mean by:

1 Thessalonians 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

Dr. J. Vernon McGee says in his commentary that you can’t turn to something until you turn from something. This is repentance and repentance is metanoeō and it means ‘to change one’s mind’.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3340&t=KJV

And we can change in our minds how to think about God but we have to read the Bible and it takes time to know what we have to change because it takes prompting by the spirit in our lives and we can’t tell the wheat from the tares apart (Matthew 12:30) and we will do damage trying to decide who is saved because we can’t read people’s minds though we can help people a little.

They turned from idols to God. I haven't figured out if repentance is a result or a step to salvation or both. I believe it can be a step but having it as a prior work is not the gospel because works isn't found in the gospel.

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Can you see the spirit and how would you know the difference between that and dead works? Who has the spirit? Does a Catholic have more of the spirit because he works harder than a Protestant?

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Here is just one of my many answers towards James 2:26 'faith without works is dead" and James is talking about ‘shewing’ your faith before men because he uses the word ‘shew’ (James 2:17), ‘see’ in James 2:22 and James 2:24 which is contrasted by lack of sight in John 3:8:

Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Luke 12:8 ¶ Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess (homologeō) me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:

Homologeo means to say the same thing and it is born out of repentance.

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Its God's work that He is trying to accomplish and sometimes it is a gift of repentance:

2 Timothy 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

And the word 'repentance' there is defined by believing or 'acknowledging of the truth' or Homologeo which means to say the same thing according to 2 Timothy 2:25.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Habukuk 2:4 ¶ Behold, his soul [which] is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

Romans11:6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

If it (our salvation) be of works, then it is no more grace and that is important to notice because salvation is grace through faith plus nothing (Eph. 2:8-9).

What is the gospel? It is 1 Corinthians 15. Notice that "works" and "repentance" isn't mentioned so I don't want to accuse people of adding to the gospel but what recourse is there? If someone preaches any other gospel then they are supposed to be anathema or accursed.

1 Cor. 15:1 ¶ Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1 Cor. 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1 Cor. 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1 Cor. 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
1 Cor. 15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
1 Cor. 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
1 Cor. 15:7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
1 Cor. 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
1 Cor. 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
1 Cor. 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which [was bestowed] upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
1 Cor. 15:11 Therefore whether [it were] I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
1 Cor. 15:12 ¶ Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1 Cor. 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
1 Cor. 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then [is] our preaching vain, and your faith [is] also vain.

 

[ForthAngel]

No. I never said that.

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding then.

All the repentance you need is in the word "believe" and I will clarify what I mean by:

1 Thessalonians 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

Dr. J. Vernon McGee says in his commentary that you can’t turn to something until you turn from something. This is repentance and repentance is metanoeō and it means ‘to change one’s mind’.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3340&t=KJV

And we can change in our minds how to think about God but we have to read the Bible and it takes time to know what we have to change because it takes prompting by the spirit in our lives and we can’t tell the wheat from the tares apart (Matthew 12:30) and we will do damage trying to decide who is saved because we can’t read people’s minds though we can help people a little.

Repentance is in relation to sin. It's not just changing how we think about God. (2 Chro 7:14; Proverbs 28:13; 1 John 1:9; Jona 3:10; Luke 13:1-3; Acts 2:38; Luke 17:3-4; Luke 5:31-32; Jer 31:19; Rev 2:5; Romans 6). It's a turning away from wickedness and turning toward God.

They turned from idols to God. I haven't figured out if repentance is a result or a step to salvation or both. I believe it can be a step but having it as a prior work is not the gospel because works isn't found in the gospel.

This illustrates that sin was involved in repentance. They turned from their sin to God.

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Can you see the spirit and how would you know the difference between that and dead works? Who has the spirit? Does a Catholic have more of the spirit because he works harder than a Protestant?

There are some sure signs of an unregenerate man, but we cannot be the judge of man's heart. One sure sign would be preaching heresy or openly blaspheming. This is a sure sign that they are devoid of the Spirit. In the book of Jude, in the context of wolves and false prophets, we are told plainly that they are devoid of the Spirit of God: [SUP]17 [/SUP]But you must remember, beloved, the predictions of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ. [SUP]18 [/SUP]They said to you, “In the last time there will be scoffers, following their own ungodly passions.” [SUP]19 [/SUP]It is these who cause divisions, worldly people, devoid of the Spirit.

God may yet call people to repentance, even if they aren't currently showing signs of salvation. Again, we can't judge a heart, but we can make sound judgements based on behavior and what they teach/believe. We can say with all confidence that a professing Buddhist, or Hindu, or Muslim isn't saved, at least not yet. Someone who worships satan or some other god, we can confidently say isn't saved. Anyone who denies Jesus we can confidently say is speaking by the spirit of antichrist (1 John 4:3)

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Here is just one of my many answers towards James 2:26 'faith without works is dead" and James is talking about ‘shewing’ your faith before men because he uses the word ‘shew’ (James 2:17), ‘see’ in James 2:22 and James 2:24 which is contrasted by lack of sight in John 3:8:

Nothing I have said contradicts Romans 4. You are using Romans 4:5 against all of the rest of the bible that says works follows faith and you are twisting James 2 to mean what you want it to mean when the text is very clear. Paul is saying one is justified by faith without works, which I and the rest of scripture agrees. But works will follow faith. (James 2:14-26; Ezek 36:26-28; Eph 2:8-10; Mat 5:13-16; Heb 13:12-16; 1 Tim 6:17-21; Ezek 11:19-20; Titus 2:7, 14; Jer 32:40; Col. 3:23-24; Rom 2:6-10; James 4:17; Galatians 6:9; 2 Timothy 3:17; Mat 7:21-23)

Rom 2:6-10
He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.

Eph 2:8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.


Mat 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

James 2: 24-26
You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Luke 12:8 ¶ Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess (homologeō) me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:

Homologeo means to say the same thing and it is born out of repentance.

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Its God's work that He is trying to accomplish and sometimes it is a gift of repentance:

2 Timothy 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

And the word 'repentance' there is defined by believing or 'acknowledging of the truth' or Homologeo which means to say the same thing according to 2 Timothy 2:25.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Habukuk 2:4 ¶ Behold, his soul [which] is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

Romans11:6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

If it (our salvation) be of works, then it is no more grace and that is important to notice because salvation is grace through faith plus nothing (Eph. 2:8-9).

You still don't understand. I'm not saying salvation is by works. Works follow saving faith. We are justified by faith. Faith without works is dead and not faith at all. We can't walk in disobedience and think we are saved. Ephesians 2 said we were created for good works in Christ which is juxtaposed with the previous verse saying we are saved by faith and not a result of works.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, [SUP]9 [/SUP]not a result of works, so that no one may boast. [SUP]10[/SUP]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

What is the gospel? It is 1 Corinthians 15. Notice that "works" and "repentance" isn't mentioned so I don't want to accuse people of adding to the gospel but what recourse is there? If someone preaches any other gospel then they are supposed to be anathema or accursed.

1 Cor. 15:1 ¶ Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1 Cor. 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1 Cor. 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1 Cor. 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
1 Cor. 15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
1 Cor. 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
1 Cor. 15:7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
1 Cor. 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
1 Cor. 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
1 Cor. 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which [was bestowed] upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
1 Cor. 15:11 Therefore whether [it were] I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
1 Cor. 15:12 ¶ Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1 Cor. 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
1 Cor. 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then [is] our preaching vain, and your faith [is] also vain.

At this point, I'm not even sure where you are going. We both agree salvation isn't by works but you keep trying to push works on me as a means of salvation. That's not what I believe and I would appreciate again if you'd stop misrepresenting me in that way. Works WILL follow salvation or the faith is dead and not saving faith. Salvation is not a license to live in sin. There are conditions and qualifiers that follow saving faith which you don't seem to understand. Here is a warning:

Jude
3Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people. 4For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about[SUP]b[/SUP] long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

 

[Chuckt]

People think Faith without works is dead.
An example would be Princess Diana. She had a lot of wonderful works but was she saved? She was going to marry a Muslim man.

And then I think about it. By what means should I do works? Do I have the means as someone who is famous, beautiful, popular, rich, well positioned and powerful? She had a lot going on and who could argue?

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

strength power, ability


inherent power, power residing in a thing by virtue of its nature, or which a person or thing exerts and puts forth


power for performing miracles


moral power and excellence of soul


the power and influence which belong to riches and wealth


power and resources arising from numbers


power consisting in or resting upon armies, forces, hosts

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

God calls some people's works "iniquity" according to Matthew 7:22-23 and so when you try to be James, I can see how you won't see it like God sees works. Other people would be deceived because they would look on the outward appearance but God knows the heart.

People are trapped in a body that is corrupted and they are being by people like you who think they know what the gospel is. "Works defined by the word of God is Iniquity".-Chuck 1:1

And I would calculate that the average Christian would sin because at the rate that the Church teaches the Bible, it would take the church 300 years or more to teach the entire word of God and then the average Christian would sin because their body was born with inherited sin and in a state of corruption.

Romans 3:9 ¶ What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

I actually have held this view for a while now. It's scriptural. The view you are presenting is unrepentance + disobedience + no good works = saved.

So if there is no one righteous according to Romans 3:9-10, you would have to condemn Paul according to your words because that is what you said. We're all under sin and there is none righteous, no, not one. Paul said he proved both Jews and Gentiles are under sin and they aren't any better.

Glad to know you are the only one going to heaven.

 

[ForthAngel]

So if there is no one righteous according to Romans 3:9-10, you would have to condemn Paul according to your words because that is what you said. We're all under sin and there is none righteous, no, not one. Paul said he proved both Jews and Gentiles are under sin and they aren't any better.

Glad to know you are the only one going to heaven.

No one is righteous. We are made righteous by Christ when we are saved by grace through faith. This is bible 101 man. We walk in righteousness as the Spirit transforms us into the image of Christ. This includes doing good works post-salvation. It's really not that difficult. You seem to think that post-salvation is no different than pre-salvation other than thinking differently about God. That isn't what scripture teaches about salvation. What about sanctification and regeneration? What about being conformed to the image of Christ? These seem like foreign concepts to you but they are basic biblical truths. What about being created in Christ for good works that we should walk in them? You teach a powerless Gospel that teaches someone can remain in rebellion and carnally minded post-salvation. That isn't the Gospel.

 

[Chuckt]

Please explain to me why these men get in

No one is righteous. We are made righteous by Christ when we are saved by grace through faith. This is bible 101 man. We walk in righteousness as the Spirit transforms us into the image of Christ. This includes doing good works post-salvation. It's really not that difficult. You seem to think that post-salvation is no different than pre-salvation other than thinking differently about God. That isn't what scripture teaches about salvation. What about sanctification and regeneration? What about being conformed to the image of Christ? These seem like foreign concepts to you but they are basic biblical truths. What about being created in Christ for good works that we should walk in them? You teach a powerless Gospel that teaches someone can remain in rebellion and carnally minded post-salvation. That isn't the Gospel.

(C) 9-7-2008 Chuckt

What do you do with these men?

Adam sinned (Gen 3:6) but God clothed Adam which speaks of forgiveness.
Abraham was an idolater (Joshua 24:2) and told his wife to lie (Genesis 12:13).
Aaron built the golden calf (Exodus 32:4).
Moses killed a man (Exodus 2:14) and wasn't allowed to enter the Promised Land and the Bible says,”…ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.” (1 John 3:15) yet we see Moses and Elijah talking to Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration which means Moses made it into heaven (Matthew 17:3, Mark 9:4).
Noah got drunk. (Genesis 9:24)
Jonah ran away (Jonah 1:3).
Job was vile (Job 40:4).
David committed fornication, murder (2 Samuel 12:9) and adultery and was still called a man after God's own heart (1 Samuel 13:14, Acts 13:22) and David's throne will be given to Messiah (Luke 1:32).
The disciples all went back to their business of fishing after Jesus died (John 21:3).
Peter started heresy (Gal 2:11)
Paul killed Christians (1 Cor. 15:9, Gal 1:13) and was called the chief of all sinners (1 Timothy 1:15) so if the chief could get in, why can’t the Indians?

Please explain to me: Why didn't these men lose their salvation?

Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Is Jesus able to save to the uttermost?

And the only sin that can't be forgiven is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit or forever rejecting Jesus.

Please explain to me why these men didn't lose their salvation?

 

[Chuckt]

No one is righteous. We are made righteous by Christ when we are saved by grace through faith. This is bible 101 man. We walk in righteousness as the Spirit transforms us into the image of Christ. This includes doing good works post-salvation. It's really not that difficult. You seem to think that post-salvation is no different than pre-salvation other than thinking differently about God. That isn't what scripture teaches about salvation. What about sanctification and regeneration? What about being conformed to the image of Christ? These seem like foreign concepts to you but they are basic biblical truths. What about being created in Christ for good works that we should walk in them? You teach a powerless Gospel that teaches someone can remain in rebellion and carnally minded post-salvation. That isn't the Gospel.

How many drug addicts, prostitutes, morally polluted people have you brought to the Lord?
I give people the gospel and I don't have to do anything. The Lord cleans them up in His timing and not your timing.

 

[Chuckt]

No one is righteous. We are made righteous by Christ when we are saved by grace through faith. This is bible 101 man. We walk in righteousness as the Spirit transforms us into the image of Christ. This includes doing good works post-salvation. It's really not that difficult. You seem to think that post-salvation is no different than pre-salvation other than thinking differently about God. That isn't what scripture teaches about salvation. What about sanctification and regeneration? What about being conformed to the image of Christ? These seem like foreign concepts to you but they are basic biblical truths. What about being created in Christ for good works that we should walk in them? You teach a powerless Gospel that teaches someone can remain in rebellion and carnally minded post-salvation. That isn't the Gospel.

There are plenty of Churches that won't have your statement of faith attached to them because John MacArthur invented your beliefs 20 years ago and only legalists have the rules that pre-salvific works save and they usually say, "Repent" and if you don't, they don't give people the gospel so everyone they witness to goes to hell which is why their churches are dying and turning into emergent churches.

 

[Chuckt]

No one is righteous. We are made righteous by Christ when we are saved by grace through faith. This is bible 101 man. We walk in righteousness as the Spirit transforms us into the image of Christ. This includes doing good works post-salvation. It's really not that difficult. You seem to think that post-salvation is no different than pre-salvation other than thinking differently about God. That isn't what scripture teaches about salvation. What about sanctification and regeneration? What about being conformed to the image of Christ? These seem like foreign concepts to you but they are basic biblical truths. What about being created in Christ for good works that we should walk in them? You teach a powerless Gospel that teaches someone can remain in rebellion and carnally minded post-salvation. That isn't the Gospel.

In all fairness, I can't put my unpublished book here because someone might steal.
I would tell you more why you are taking an incorrect view on James 2:20.
Perhaps I can get my book into looking more like a book by summer or later.

 

[ForthAngel]

Re: Please explain to me why these men get in

(C) 9-7-2008 Chuckt

What do you do with these men?

Adam sinned (Gen 3:6) but God clothed Adam which speaks of forgiveness.
Abraham was an idolater (Joshua 24:2) and told his wife to lie (Genesis 12:13).
Aaron built the golden calf (Exodus 32:4).
Moses killed a man (Exodus 2:14) and wasn't allowed to enter the Promised Land and the Bible says,”…ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.” (1 John 3:15) yet we see Moses and Elijah talking to Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration which means Moses made it into heaven (Matthew 17:3, Mark 9:4).
Noah got drunk. (Genesis 9:24)
Jonah ran away (Jonah 1:3).
Job was vile (Job 40:4).
David committed fornication, murder (2 Samuel 12:9) and adultery and was still called a man after God's own heart (1 Samuel 13:14, Acts 13:22) and David's throne will be given to Messiah (Luke 1:32).
The disciples all went back to their business of fishing after Jesus died (John 21:3).
Peter started heresy (Gal 2:11)
Paul killed Christians (1 Cor. 15:9, Gal 1:13) and was called the chief of all sinners (1 Timothy 1:15) so if the chief could get in, why can’t the Indians?

What do you mean what do I do with them?? They were saved by grace through faith just like anyone else. Do you not understand sanctification? Being conformed to the image of Christ? We don't become sinless, but the Gospel is not a license remain nestled comfortably in our sins. A CHANGE takes place. As we walk with the Lord we are TRANSFORMED by the indwelling SPIRIT of God and we walk in good works which were prepared beforehand for us. I've give you the scriptures. Refute those if you dare.

Please explain to me: Why didn't these men lose their salvation?

Because salvation can't be lost. We are all sinners, but the grace of God is not a license to remain in sin. Those who embrace carnality after salvation are not saved. Although people will still sin after salvation, they are constantly being transformed by the Holy Spirit to the image of Christ. Bible 101. Their life changes. Sin loses it's power over them. The are regenerated and constantly being sactified. Corrected by God, unless they be illegitimate children.

Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Is Jesus able to save to the uttermost?

Yep.

And the only sin that can't be forgiven is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit or forever rejecting Jesus.

Please explain to me why these men didn't lose their salvation?

Le Sigh. I'm finished with you. You obviously dunno scripture regarding the regenerated man, nor do you care to address it.

 

[ForthAngel]

There are plenty of Churches that won't have your statement of faith attached to them because John MacArthur invented your beliefs 20 years ago and only legalists have the rules that pre-salvific works save and they usually say, "Repent" and if you don't, they don't give people the gospel so everyone they witness to goes to hell which is why their churches are dying and turning into emergent churches.

How many drug addicts, prostitutes, morally polluted people have you brought to the Lord?
I give people the gospel and I don't have to do anything. The Lord cleans them up in His timing and not your timing.

You obviously can't contend with the truth of the scriptures I presented regarding post-salvation so you are resorting to personal criticisms again. Have a good night.

 

[ForthAngel]

There are plenty of Churches that won't have your statement of faith attached to them because John MacArthur invented your beliefs 20 years ago and only legalists have the rules that pre-salvific works save and they usually say, "Repent" and if you don't, they don't give people the gospel so everyone they witness to goes to hell which is why their churches are dying and turning into emergent churches.

You obviously can't contend with the truth of the scriptures I presented regarding post-salvation so you are resorting to personal criticisms again. Have a good night.

I've never said anything about pre-salvation works either. You are a liar. I've asked you to quit misrepresenting me but you continue to do it.

 

[Chuckt]

No one is righteous. We are made righteous by Christ when we are saved by grace through faith. This is bible 101 man. We walk in righteousness as the Spirit transforms us into the image of Christ. This includes doing good works post-salvation. It's really not that difficult. You seem to think that post-salvation is no different than pre-salvation other than thinking differently about God. That isn't what scripture teaches about salvation. What about sanctification and regeneration? What about being conformed to the image of Christ? These seem like foreign concepts to you but they are basic biblical truths. What about being created in Christ for good works that we should walk in them? You teach a powerless Gospel that teaches someone can remain in rebellion and carnally minded post-salvation. That isn't the Gospel.

But the principal acts of saving faith are accepting, receiving, and resting upon Christ alone for justification, sanctification, and eternal life, by virtue of the covenant of grace.[9]-Westminster Confession of Faith

3:6 Just as Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” 3:7 so then, understand that those who believe are the sons of Abraham. 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, proclaimed the gospel to Abraham ahead of time, saying, “all the nations will be blessed in you.” 3:9 So then those who believe are blessed along with Abraham the believer.
If the salvation offered to us were dependent on our merit or our ability to keep the law, it would not be good news because of our sinfulness and complete inability to keep the law or any kind of righteous principles as a means of our justification or right standing with God.

https://bible.org/article/what-gospel


Salvation Only Through Christ

We believe that, owing to universal death through sin, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless born again; and that no degree of reformation however great, no attainments in morality, however high, no culture however attractive, no baptism or other ordinance however administered, can help the sinner to take even one step toward heaven; but a new nature imparted from above, a new life implanted by the Holy Spirit through the Word, is absolutely essential to salvation, and only those thus saved are sons of God. We believe also that our redemption has been accomplished solely by the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, who was made to be sin and was made a curse for us, dying in our room and stead; and that no repentance, no feeling, no faith, no good resolutions, no sincere efforts, no submission to the rules and regulations of any church, nor all the churches that have existed since the days of the Apostles, can add in the very least degree to the value of the blood or to the merit of the finished work wrought for us by Him who united in His person true and proper deity with perfect and sinless humanity. (Leviticus 17:11; Isaiah 64:6; Matthew 26:28; John 3:7-18; Romans 5:6-9; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Galatians 3:13; 6:15; Ephesians 1:7; Philippians 3:4-9; Titus 3:5; James 1:18; 1 Peter 1:18-19, 23.)

Thru the Bible Radio Network t

I could quote the doctrinal Statement from Dallas Theological Seminary but it would say the same thing.

[SUP]3[/SUP] An individual receives the benefit of Christ's substitutionary death by faith as the result of responding to the message of the gospel. Salvation is the free gift of God's grace through faith alone, in Christ alone, therefore not dependent upon church membership, intermediaries, sacraments or works of righteousness to attain or sustain it.

Doctrinal Statement - Beliefs | Moody Global Ministries

• We believe that sinners are justified by faith alone, forgiven, reconciled to God, kept by Him, and granted eternal life as a gift of His grace, which they receive by faith alone in the crucified and risen Savior, Jesus Christ. We believe that all who trust Him are born of the Holy Spirit and thereby become the children of God.

Our Beliefs | Cairn University

1. The true Church consists of all those who trust in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the sole and sufficient means for obtaining forgiveness of their sins and eternal life with God. Those who so trust in Jesus Christ, are redeemed through His blood and are born again of the Holy Spirit.

Statement of Faith | Watchman Fellowship, Inc.

Salvation as described in the Bible, based in the deity, death, and resurrection of Christ—which is the gospel (1Cor.15:1–6)—entails all these essential doctrines, including: (1)human depravity, (2)Christ’s virgin birth, (3)Christ’s sinlessness, (4)Christ’s deity, (5)Christ’s humanity, (6)God’s unity, (7)God’s triunity, (8)the necessity of God’s grace, (9)the necessity of faith, (10)Christ’s atoning death, (11)Christ’s bodily resurrection, (12)Christ’s bodily ascension, (13)Christ’s present high priestly service, (14)Christ’s second coming, final judgment, and reign.
Some may question how Christ’s present service, second coming, kingdom reign, and final judgment are essential doctrines of salvation. The answer lies in understanding salvation in the broad sense of all three stages: justification, sanctification, and glorification. According to Scripture, (1)we have been saved from the penalty of sin (by justification)the moment we believe (Rom.3:28;5:1; Gal.3:24), (2)we presently are in the process of being saved from the power of sin (by sanctification)(John17:17; Eph.5:25–26;1 Thess.5:23), and (3)we will at death or at Christ’s coming be saved from the very presence of sin (by glorification; that is, by being made perfect) (Rom.8:30; 1Cor.13:10–13; 1John3:2).

-The Christian Research Institute

The Essential Doctrines of the Christian Faith (Part Two) - Christian Research Institute

We affirm that the doctrine of the imputation (reckoning or counting) both of our sins to Christ and of his righteousness to us, whereby our sins are fully forgiven and we are fully accepted, is essential to the biblical Gospel (2 Cor. 5:19–21).

We deny that we are justified by the righteousness of Christ infused into us or by any righteousness that is thought to inhere within us.

Apologetics research resources on religious cults and sects - The Gospel of Jesus Christ: An Evangelical Celebration

The Gospel comes from God (Gal. 1:10-12), is the power of God for salvation (Rom. 1:16), is a mystery (Eph. 6:19), and is a source of hope (Col. 1:23), faith (Acts 15:9), life (2 Cor. 4:14), and peace (Eph. 6:15).
So, salvation is found in the Gospel. In other words, when a person trusts in what Christ did on earth (lived a perfect life), bore our sins in His body on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24), and died with them, paying the price for our redemption (Acts 20:28, Col. 2:14) according to the Law, then that person is saved from God's righteous judgment. We are declared right in God's eyes through Jesus' sacrifice on the cross.
[h=3]Salvation Only T:4-9; Titus 3:5; James 1:18; 1 Peter 1:18-19, 23.)[/h]

https://carm.org/dictionary-gospel

Romans 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift (g5486 χάρισμα charisma). For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

The free gift means "unmerited favor". We didn't deserve this gift from believing and now you are trying to qualify it. The statements of faith that I quoted got the unmerited favor right but you are saying that my quality of salvation has to merit your quality of salvation or people aren't saved and you are unknowingly teaching the Catholic doctrine that merges salvation with sanctification with other pastors have told me is Catholicism. Your belief will usher in the one world religion because it is a merging of Roman Catholicism with Christianity and Islam because Islam and Roman Catholicism teaches works.

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

 

[Chuckt]

The Bible says this:

Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

 

[Chuckt]

I've never said anything about pre-salvation works either. You are a liar. I've asked you to quit misrepresenting me but you continue to do it.

Nothing you quoted in your quotation of me had your name attached to it so I don't believe I said you said anything about pre-salvation works. I was talking about other people as far as I know.

 

[ForthAngel]

For anyone who might be interested:

The Distinctives of Lordship Salvation
There are many articles of faith that are fundamental to all evangelical teaching. For example, there is agreement among all believers on the following truths: (1) Christ's death purchased eternal salvation; (2) the saved are justified by grace through faith in Christ alone; (3) sinners cannot earn divine favor; (4) God requires no preparatory works or pre-salvation reformation; (5) eternal life is a gift of God; (6) believers are saved before their faith ever produces any righteous works; and (7) Christians can and do sin, sometimes horribly.

What, then, are the distinctives of lordship salvation? What does Scripture teach that is embraced by those who affirm lordship salvation but rejected by proponents of "easy-believism"? The following are nine distinctives of a biblical understanding of salvation and the gospel.

First, Scripture teaches that the gospel calls sinners to faith joined in oneness with repentance (Acts 2:38; 17:30; 20:21; 2 Peter 3:9). Repentance is a turning from sin (Acts 3:19; Luke 24:47) that consists not of a human work but of a divinely bestowed grace (Acts 11:18; 2 Timothy 2:25). It is a change of heart, but genuine repentance will effect a change of behavior as well (Luke 3:8; Acts 26:18-20). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that repentance is simply a synonym for faith and that no turning from sin is required for salvation.

Second, Scripture teaches that salvation is all God's work. Those who believe are saved utterly apart from any effort on their own (Titus 3:5). Even faith is a gift of God, not a work of man (Ephesians 2:1-5, 8). Real faith therefore cannot be defective or short-lived but endures forever (Philippians 1:6; cf. Hebrews 11). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that faith might not last and that a true Christian can completely cease believing.

Third, Scripture teaches that the object of faith is Christ Himself, not a creed or a promise (John 3:16). Faith therefore involves personal commitment to Christ (2 Corinthians 5:15). In other words, all true believers follow Jesus (John 10:27-28). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that saving faith is simply being convinced or giving credence to the truth of the gospel and does not include a personal commitment to the person of Christ.

Fourth, Scripture teaches that real faith inevitably produces a changed life (2 Corinthians 5:17). Salvation includes a transformation of the inner person (Galatians 2:20). The nature of the Christian is new and different (Romans 6:6). The unbroken pattern of sin and enmity with God will not continue when a person is born again (1 John 3:9-10). Those with genuine faith follow Christ (John 10:27), love their brothers (1 John 3:14), obey God's commandments (1 John 2:3; John 15:14), do the will of God (Matthew 12:50), abide in God's Word (John 8:31), keep God's Word (John 17:6), do good works (Ephesians 2:10), and continue in the faith (Colossians 1:21-23; Hebrews 3:14). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that although some spiritual fruit is inevitable, that fruit might not be visible to others and Christians can even lapse into a state of permanent spiritual barrenness.

Fifth, Scripture teaches that God's gift of eternal life includes all that pertains to life and godliness (2 Peter 1:3; Romans 8:32), not just a ticket to heaven. In contrast, according to easy-believism, only the judicial aspects of salvation (e.g., justification, adoption, and positional sanctification) are guaranteed for believers in this life; practical sanctification and growth in grace require a post-conversion act of dedication.

Sixth, Scripture teaches that Jesus is Lord of all, and the faith He demands involves unconditional surrender (Romans 6:17-18; 10:9-10). In other words, Christ does not bestow eternal life on those whose hearts remain set against Him (James 4:6). Surrender to Jesus' lordship is not an addendum to the biblical terms of salvation; the summons to submission is at the heart of the gospel invitation throughout Scripture. In contrast, easy-believism teaches that submission to Christ's supreme authority is not germane to the saving transaction.

Seventh, Scripture teaches that those who truly believe will love Christ (1 Peter 1:8-9; Romans 8:28-30; 1 Corinthians 16:22). They will therefore long to obey Him (John 14:15, 23). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that Christians may fall into a state of lifelong carnality.

Eighth, Scripture teaches that behavior is an important test of faith. Obedience is evidence that one's faith is real (1 John 2:3). On the other hand, the person who remains utterly unwilling to obey Christ does not evidence true faith (1 John 2:4). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that disobedience and prolonged sin are no reason to doubt the reality of one's faith.

Ninth, Scripture teaches that genuine believers may stumble and fall, but they will persevere in the faith (1 Corinthians 1:8). Those who later turn completely away from the Lord show that they were never truly born again (1 John 2:19). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that a true believer may utterly forsake Christ and come to the point of not believing.

Most Christians recognize that these nine distinctives are not new or radical ideas. The preponderance of Bible-believing Christians over the centuries have held these to be basic tenets of orthodoxy. In fact, no major orthodox movement in the history of Christianity has ever taught that sinners can spurn the lordship of Christ yet lay claim to Him as Savior.

An Introduction to Lordship Salvation

 

[Chuckt]

The Truth about Lordship Salvation

John MacArthur's Position on the Lordship of Christ


John MacArthur's Position on Lordship Salvation

 

[Chuckt]

Therefore, our position is that repentance is a necessary result of God's work in us (yet it's also something that we do). The issue of Lordship salvation incorrectly addresses the order of salvation by implying that faith leads to regeneration, which leads to repentance. I believe this mistakenly puts the focus on man's ability instead of God's work, and this is where the error of Lordship salvation arises. The truth is that we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. Repentance from sin is the result of salvation--not a contributing factor to it.

If it is God who grants us repentance (2 Timothy 2:25) and faith (Philippians 1:29), then there is no room for the Lordship salvation controversy. Instead, we understand that the Lordship of Christ and our repentance are both the natural result of the work of God--not the work of our faith and repentance.

https://carm.org/what-is-lordship-salvation-and-is-it-biblical

 

[Chuckt]

LORDSHIP SALVATION

Like I said above, one of the most vocal voices espousing Lordship Salvation today is John MacArthur. In fact, he’s written a book promoting Lordship Salvation titled “The Gospel According to Jesus,” which I believe has been revised three times. This book, as far as I can tell, is the book that has most propelled Lordship Salvation to its status as an accepted doctrine in our day. It’s a doctrine that I disagree with and one that I believe perverts the true gospel of Jesus Christ. So what is Lordship Salvation? It carries the idea that for one to be saved, one must forsake all sin, be willing to carry one’s cross and die for Jesus, live a life of self-denial, and implicitly obey and fully surrender to the Lordship of Christ. But instead of me trying to explain it alone, let me quote John MacArthur and others on this subject and then comment on their quotes.

Let me say again unequivocally that Jesus’ summons to deny self and follow him was an invitation to salvation, not….a second step of faith following salvation… Those who are not willing to lose their lives for Christ are not worthy of Him. He wants disciples willing to forsake everything. This calls for full-scale self-denial – even willingness to die for His sake if necessary. (The cost of following Discipleship – The Gospel According to Jesus.)

Thus in a sense we pay the ultimate price for salvation when our sinful self is nailed to the cross…It is an exchange of all that we are for all that Christ is. And it denotes implicit obedience, full surrender to the Lordship of Christ. Nothing less can qualify as saving faith. (1st version, The Gospel According to Jesus, pg. 140)

Saving faith is a commitment to leave sin and follow Jesus at all cost. Jesus takes no one unwilling to come on those terms. (1st Version, The Gospel According to Jesus, pg. 87)

Anyone who wants to come after Jesus into the Kingdom of God—anyone who wants to be a Christian--has to face three commands: 1) deny himself, 2) take up his cross daily, and 3) follow him.” (Hard to Believe, p. 6.)

So in John MacArthur’s first quote, he says that one must be willing to forsake everything and even be willing to die for Jesus to receive salvation. Notice he is not saying that this is the attitude of believers after they have been saved; he is saying one must have this attitude in order to be saved in the first place.

Why Lordship Salvation is not Biblical - Preaching Jesus Christ

 

[Chuckt]

Understanding the Lordship Salvation Controversy by Bob Lyle

Understanding the Lordship Salvation Controversy

by Bob Lyle

from the Christian Research Newsletter, Volume 2: Number 6, 1989.
The Editor of the Christian Research Newsletter is Ron Rhodes.
[HR][/HR]What must I do to be saved?

The answer to this question is so controversial that it has divided some quarters of evangelical Christianity into warring factions. The issue involved is the nature of salvation and saving faith: What is saving faith? What does it mean to receive Jesus as Lord and Savior? How much must one surrender to the Lord at the time of salvation? What are the fruits of repentance?

"Lordship salvation" advocates say that in order to be saved, one must not only believe and acknowledge that Christ is Lord, but also submit to His lordship. In other words, there must be -- at the moment one trusts in Christ for salvation -- a willingness to commit one's life absolutely to the Lord, even though the actual practice of a committed life may not follow immediately or completely. Non-lordship proponents argue that such a pre-salvation commitment to Christ's lordship compromises salvation by grace.

The present debate is largely due to the publication of John F. MacArthur, Jr.'s The Gospel According to Jesus (Zondervan, 1988). According to an article by S. Lewis Johnson in the September 22 edition of Christianity Today, this book has produced "an explosion of comment, discussion, and feisty debate." MacArthur, Senior Pastor of Grace Community Church and president of The Master's Seminary (both in Sun Valley, California) is a lordship salvation advocate. He wrote his book in response to (among others) a 1981 book by Zane C. Hodges entitled The Gospel Under Siege (Redencion Viva). Hodges, former professor of New Testament at Dallas Theological Seminary, espouses the non-lordship view, and argues that much evangelical gospel-preaching is guilty of compromising the grace of the gospel. Hodges followed MacArthur's book with still another book entitled Absolutely Free (Zondervan, 1989).

Another scholar responding to MacArthur's book is Charles C. Ryrie (of The Ryrie Study Bible fame). Ryrie recently published So Great Salvation (Victor, 1989) in which he strongly affirms the non-lordship position. According to Ryrie, the non-lordship position states that accepting Jesus as Lord does not refer to a subjective commitment to Christ's lordship in one's life, but rather a repentance (or changing of one's mind) about one's ideas of who Christ is (i.e., He is the Sovereign and God) and exercising faith in Christ. Ryrie argues that repentance from sin is what follows in the Christian's daily walk with the Lord.

Much confusion has overshadowed this controversy because of the lack of precise definitions of key words (although Ryrie does provide some working definitions in his book). Neither side is saying that salvation is by works. Both affirm the clear teaching of Scripture that salvation is a gift freely given by God to man. Nor is either side advocating "easy-believism," a term coined by Lordship proponents to describe the idea that one receives salvation by simply giving intellectual assent to a set of doctrines.

The debate will no doubt continue. It is important, however, that in future discussions of this issue, a clarification between the act of justification and process of sanctification be maintained. Justification is the judicial declaration by God that the believer has a righteous standing before Him. This takes place the moment a person receives Jesus as his or her Savior by appropriating Christ's redemptive work on the cross. Sanctification is the lifelong work of the Holy Spirit which conforms the believer into the image of Christ.

Martin Luther once said that "Faith alone justifies, but not the faith that is alone." "Works," Luther said, "are not taken into consideration when the question respects justification. But true faith will no more fail to produce them than the sun can cease to give light."

Our responsibility as Christians is to present the claims of Christ to a lost and dying world. We may rest secure in the fact that a person's acceptance of the Gospel will result in the fruit of repentance -- but this is the work of the Holy Spirit, not man.
[HR][/HR]End of document, CRN0015A.TXT (original CRI file name),
"Understanding the Lordship Salvation Controversy"
release A, March 21, 1994
R. Poll, CRI
A special note of thanks to Bob and Pat Hunter for their help in the preparation of this ASCII file for BBS circulation.
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