Did Christ cancel the OT, or teach us how to use it?

[RedTent]

I am still waiting for ONE verse that says we have to obey the Law as prescribed in the Torah and then depend upon the grace of God in the same sentence in the Bible. We obey God BECAUSE he has saved us. We are not saved by obeying the law. And even obeying God is about the outward qualities which come from the inner changes God has made in our lives through the Holy Spirit.

There is no where in the New Testament it says to keep the rituals and rites of the Jewish people. There are many scriptures telling us to follow Jesus.

"Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me." Matt. 16:24

" Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.” John 8:12

"Follow the pattern of the sound words that you have heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus." 2 Tim 1:13

I think you are not following through with all of God principles. There are many about the law, and they all are truth, and we as humans need to open our hearts and souls to accommodate every single one of them, not leave any out.
We are told to obey law, the law is love, not to get caught up in the worldly type steps suggested for obedience that would cancel out love, that the HS leads us to law, that we are not under it for death because we have Christ, many things. If we say that any one of these instructions cancels out any other instruction we are not following Christ.

There are places in the bible where it says to do such and such, like put tassels on your garments. There is no where in all the bible that says this is necessary for salvation. No one who follows God says so and if they do, it is of no account because it is not truth. There are places in the bible that scolds for even keeping such as a fast in the wrong way, and there are scolds for saying they are necessary for accepting Christ. Often, there are people saying they are wrong, but it is not scripture that the rituals are wrong. There is scripture suggesting they be used, and that they lead to teaching ourselves about God and keeping him front and center in our lives. When scripture tells us not to use them in the wrong way, it is not saying rituals are wrong.

No one gets all shook up if they are told to drink 8 glasses of water a day, even though it isn't in scripture. Just say it is better not to eat pork, repeating scripture to suggest it, and there is a great hew and cry. Neither suggesting 8 glasses of water a day or not eating pork has anything to do with death if you don't do it. Perhaps satin is at work?

 

[WomanLovesTX]

I am still waiting for ONE verse that says we have to obey the Law as prescribed in the Torah and then depend upon the grace of God in the same sentence in the Bible. We obey God BECAUSE he has saved us. We are not saved by obeying the law. And even obeying God is about the outward qualities which come from the inner changes God has made in our lives through the Holy Spirit.

There is no where in the New Testament it says to keep the rituals and rites of the Jewish people. There are many scriptures telling us to follow Jesus.

"Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me." Matt. 16:24

" Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.” John 8:12

"Follow the pattern of the sound words that you have heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus." 2 Tim 1:13

Romans 1:5 Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith.
Romans 16:26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal YHVH, so that all nations might believe and obey him. (Same as the Great Commission - Matthew 28:19-20)
Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
In John 3:36, John wrote, "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of YHVH abides on him."

 

[danschance]

1) Romans 1:5 Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith. This does not specifically address the Mosaic laws.

2)Romans 16:26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal YHVH, so that all nations might believe and obey him. (Same as the Great Commission - Matthew 28:19-20)
YHVH is Hebrew and does not appear in the greek scriptures. THis is about obedience and not specifically about the Mosaic Laws.

3) Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. Again, this does not saying about the Mosaic Laws.

4) In John 3:36, John wrote, "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of YHVH abides on him." Again, this does not saying about the Mosaic Laws.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We must certainly aren't getting together. It is as if you decide what I think and say and them make my words agree with you, and I have a hard time finding myself in your post

How can anyone misunderstand you? Maybe you worded it wrong??

Here we go again!! Saying that scripture doesn't talk about feasts and laws, because Jesus is the focus. It does talk about those things in addition to saying Christ is the focus. Even a secular book could tell you the heart of a story and still tell you of other things.

It all amounts to a personal relationship, that is the way God is. Because I have a personal relationship with God means I want to know more about Him, not the other way around. It speaks of a bunch of religious ceremonies,

How else can anyone interpret these words, they are your words!

. You say you would never use the help of rituals, you use other helps. You spend an entire post with reasons against rituals, and say you don't.

again I must ask, do you relate to your husband or father with ritual? would it help you know them better? or make them appreciate you more?

I think rituals are an excellent path to use in worship, I don't think, (I repeat and repeat and repeat) it is the only way. The church today accents the spiritual, with little physical doing to lead. We are physical. I think rituals could be a blessing. You insist on making what I think into a great case, with accusations about it that I don't state, and you will not consider it. I think that is short sighted. Now. Make a huge case against me over something as innocent as this!

Ritualistic churches (like ritualistic Israel) have placed so much emphasis on worship and ritual, they got away from having a relationship with God. I have far more a relp with God now then when I went to my ritualistic church most of my life. Instead of "going through motions" thinking it makes me more holy. I actually do REAL things,, as I would with my wife or parents.

Try it, you might like it.

 

[just-me]

1) Romans 1:5 Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith. This does not specifically address the Mosaic laws.

2)Romans 16:26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal YHVH, so that all nations might believe and obey him. (Same as the Great Commission - Matthew 28:19-20)
YHVH is Hebrew and does not appear in the greek scriptures. THis is about obedience and not specifically about the Mosaic Laws.

3)Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. Again, this does not saying about the Mosaic Laws.

4)In John 3:36,John wrote, "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of YHVH abides on him." Again, this does not saying about the Mosaic Laws.

Discern this Hebrews 9:15-17 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

This tells me that all of the ministry of Jesus (before His death) the OT was still in effect, for the New was not enacted yet because He had not died yet. Make sense? Fulfill does not = cancel or negate. It means to take it to completion.

Proof that Jesus' teachings were of the OT. The OT was in effect until Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection. Jesus is the mediator between the OT and the NT. Even though a person doesn't want to admit that, the book of Hebrews states the fact. No argument necessary.

John 5:44-47 (KJV)
[SUP]44 [/SUP]How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
[SUP]45 [/SUP]Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
[SUP]46 [/SUP]For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
[SUP]47 [/SUP]But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

 

[just-me]

Romans 1:5 Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith.
Romans 16:26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal YHVH, so that all nations might believe and obey him. (Same as the Great Commission - Matthew 28:19-20)
Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
In John 3:36, John wrote, "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of YHVH abides on him."

All these verses are true and of the NT. see post 65

 

[just-me]

Not meaning to be confrontational in the least, but the witness of some seems to be saying that our Lord indicates the following by His teachings. What most people hear without really saying it is like He says, “Forget about what My Father said to Moses, let Me give you My take on it.” I sincerely believe that Biblical definitions that seem to indicate Jesus versus God or New Testament versus Old, need to be redefined in truth. For he says the following of Himself and His Father,
John 5:30-32 (KJV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP]I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
John 14:8-9 (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Jesus is the mediator between the OT and the NT. Even though a person doesn't want to admit that, the book of Hebrews states the fact. No argument necessary.

Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant. Moses was the mediator of the old covenant. There is no such thing as a mediator between covenants.

 

[Ariel82]

Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant. Moses was the mediator of the old covenant. There is no such thing as a mediator between covenants.

I was thinking the same thing. the covenant was between GOD and His people.

Galatians 4
[h=3][/h][SUP]21 [/SUP]Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? [SUP]22 [/SUP]For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, [SUP]24 [/SUP]which things are symbolic. For these are the[SUP][d][/SUP] two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— [SUP]25 [/SUP]for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— [SUP]26 [/SUP]but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. [SUP]27 [/SUP]For it is written:

“Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”[SUP][e][/SUP]


[SUP]28 [/SUP]Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. [SUP]29 [/SUP]But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.”[SUP][f][/SUP] [SUP]31 [/SUP]So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.



Hagar & her children = old covenant, the worldly Jerusalem (Israel/ mosaic covenant) [mediator = Moses and blood of animals]

Sarai & her children = new covenant, heavenly Jerusalem (Jews & Gentiles who believe in JESUS) [mediator = Jesus and blood shed upon the cross]

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant. Moses was the mediator of the old covenant. There is no such thing as a mediator between covenants.

Agree, yet jesus has been the mediator from adam until today. before during and after the mosaic..

all people are saved through him, and always have been. Just me did not say old covenant, he said OT. which would include all, including adam to moses.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Agree, yet jesus has been the mediator from adam until today. before during and after the mosaic..
.

No he hasn't. He is only mediator of the new covenant.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No he hasn't. He is only mediator of the new covenant.

Oh?

So tell me, How was people in the OT saved apart from Christ? Are you dual covenant?

 

[WomanLovesTX]

1) Romans 1:5 Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith. This does not specifically address the Mosaic laws.

2)Romans 16:26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal YHVH, so that all nations might believe and obey him. (Same as the Great Commission - Matthew 28:19-20)
YHVH is Hebrew and does not appear in the greek scriptures. THis is about obedience and not specifically about the Mosaic Laws.

3)Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. Again, this does not saying about the Mosaic Laws.

4)In John 3:36,John wrote, "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of YHVH abides on him." Again, this does not saying about the Mosaic Laws.

I respectfully disagree with you. The New Covenant is the laws are written on our hearts. JEREMIAH 31 and Hebrews 8.

 

[just-me]

Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant. Moses was the mediator of the old covenant. There is no such thing as a mediator between covenants.

So you can't reconcile God the Father and God the Son?
Hebrews 9:15 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

See the connection? Jesus is between the old and the new. As I said before, Jesus' ministry was during the old, and before the new, putting it in different terms as before. I will also mention as I have many times before fulfill means to complete, not to make obsolete, and cause to vanish.

Definition of FULFILL

a : to put into effect : execute

b : to meet the requirements of (a business order)

c : to measure up to : satisfy

d : to convert into reality

e : to develop the full potentialities of
— ful·fill·er noun


Examples of FULFILL

• He fulfilled his pledge to cut taxes.
• She failed to fulfill her obligations.
• The program is intended to fulfill the basic needs of children in the community.
• Related to FULFILL

Synonymsanswer, complete, comply (with), fill, keep, meet, redeem,satisfy, abide by, make good (or make good on)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So you can't reconcile God the Father and God the Son?
Hebrews 9:15 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

See the connection? Jesus is between the old and the new. As I said before, Jesus' ministry was during the old, and before the new, putting it in different terms as before. I will also mention as I have many times before fulfill means to complete, not to make obsolete, and cause to vanish.

Definition of FULFILL

a : to put into effect : execute

b : to meet the requirements of (a business order)

c : to measure up to : satisfy

d : to convert into reality

e : to develop the full potentialities of
— ful·fill·er noun


Examples of FULFILL

• He fulfilled his pledge to cut taxes.
• She failed to fulfill her obligations.
• The program is intended to fulfill the basic needs of children in the community.
• Related to FULFILL

Synonymsanswer, complete, comply (with), fill, keep, meet, redeem,satisfy, abide by, make good (or make good on)

which he did on the cross.. correct?

He fulfilled all the law. whihc before that, all, even those who were with him, were under..

 

[just-me]

which he did on the cross.. correct?

He fulfilled all the law. whihc before that, all, even those who were with him, were under..

2 Corinthians 5:18-19 (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
[SUP]19 [/SUP]To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


Christ didn't cancel the Old testament, He fulfilled it, and completed it.

 

[just-me]

The Old Testament is not complete without Christ. We can reckon with the fact that Jesus created all things, and receiving this truth by faith, we can also say the plan of salvation was complete (God's plan from the beginning through Christ Jesus).

In other words, We serve an all knowing God, and the plan from beginning to the end was all thought out by God the Father, and God the Son, before the creation of the world. Makes sense to me, taking these verse into account as truth. So the OT and the NT are one plan, which makes the NT by no means an afterthought of God through the Son Christ Jesus.


John 17:4-5 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Colossians 1:12-20 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

2 Corinthians 5:18-19 (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
[SUP]19 [/SUP]To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


Christ didn't cancel the Old testament, He fulfilled it, and completed it.

Correct. it is not about us, It is about him, which is why he is called the word. All things from creation, to gen 3: 15, to the promise given abraham concerning all nations, to the law. to him, and forward are about him, not us.

 

[just-me]

Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant. Moses was the mediator of the old covenant. There is no such thing as a mediator between covenants.

I find no place in the Bible that says Moses was a mediator of anything. Nevertheless, Moses was the one that obeyed Gods command, pointing to Christ way back when.

Numbers 21:6-9 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

John 3:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

A mediator has to mediate between two people or entities, etc. The Mediator between God and man, is our Savior. Moses, was important to lay the ground work, if you will, to bring to us the preeminence, and completeness to Christ alone. Can't separate the two from each other, otherwise a person makes the mistake of separating God from His Son, who is our mediator and redeemer.

Galatians 3:20 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
1 Timothy 2:5 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

 

[Ariel82]

I find no place in the Bible that says Moses was a mediator of anything.

I agree that Moses did point to Christ but the people didn't understand. so he was forced to mediate the covenant upon Mount Sinai but even then God said it would be replaced with a better covenant and He would have a True people who worship in Spirit and in Truth.

Moses had to speak for God because the people refused to listen to Him directly:

Exodus 20
[h=3][/h][SUP]18 [/SUP]Now all the people witnessed the thunderings, the lightning flashes, the sound of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it, they trembled and stood afar off. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Then they said to Moses, “You speak with us, and we will hear; but let not God speak with us, lest we die.”

[SUP]20 [/SUP]And Moses said to the people, “Do not fear; for God has come to test you, and that His fear may be before you, so that you may not sin.” [SUP]21 [/SUP]So the people stood afar off, but Moses drew near the thick darkness where God was.