Did Christ cancel the OT, or teach us how to use it?

[just-me]

Moses was a type of messiah who mediated the old covenant between GOD and Israel.

Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3:19

And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words. Exodus 24:8

​

1 Timothy 2:5 refers to the new covenant.

I wouldn't argue with what you said. I think of Mediator as one who makes it possible to be accepted by God. In the Old Covenant, as well as the New Covenant, the mediator was the shedding of blood, as it was even way back when God gave Adam and Eve their coats of skin. I see a mediator connected with death and the shedding of blood in every case. Moses never did that, and even Aaron never did that. It was always a sacrifice that made it possible to be in the presence of God. Therefore it was a clean animal, without blemish, that was a requirement to be accepted by God. All those requirements from the beginning of time have been completed by our Lord Jesus Christ, being the sacrifice without blemish. The beauty of it all is that our Lord and Savior, is not only the High Priest, He also is the sacrifice fulfilling/completing all that God has required from the very beginning of time. Jesus is the better sacrifice, and the sacrifices before His, were a foreshadow of that completion through Him. I think that's really great that unlike Aaron, we have a High Priest that will never die so no one else can ever take His place in the offering of sacrifices from the very beginning. One mediator according to scripture;

1 Timothy 2:5 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Hebrews 12:23-24 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
[SUP]24 [/SUP]And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Jesus also covers the sins of those of the Old Covenant who had faith in God, and trusted Him.

Hebrews 9:15 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

I think that we might be splitting hairs in speaking covenant, and testament. In the respect that I speak, I categorize them as the same. Nevertheless, a testament is equated with death, and a covenant is equated with promise.

 

[Bookends]

To answer you question, Christ did neither, He didn't destroy the OT-which would be to destroy Himself NOR did he teach us now to preform the rituals in the OT but taught us how the things of the OT pointed to HIMSELF! HOW WE CAN OBTAIN OUR SABBATH REST IN HIM. And now that Christ came, we don't need the OT laws and rituals etc. to have a rightful, acceptable relationship with God. In This aspect the LAWS of the OT are dead! BUT, the OT still serves and has a purpose to teach us (about God's holy character and His plan of redemption) and to confirm to us that Christ is the Messiah!!!

 

[BradC]

I'm so glad I convinced you to really study the OT, too.

Those 613 laws of the OT are a wonderful study. You have to put them together with the culture of the time they were written for, and watch them for love. Their purpose was to create a safe place for God's people to live, they lived in such a wild time that some people sacrificed babies. God loved His people and wanted them safe. Also, it is the purpose of the law, not the letter of the law. For instance, God says to rest on the Sabbath, not that you can only walk an exact number of blocks on the Sabbath. Also, if it has to do with the temple, priests, or sacrifice as they were instructed, Christ replaced that so we aren't to count them. You can study them to see how Christ works for us, but we are to use Christ's blood, now. We can get hung up on "stoning" but that was seldom done. It does tell us what is most important to God.

And please remember that all Paul says is God breathed, and God never speaks against God. If it seems so, it is your misunderstanding, not Paul.

I think that 'stoning' is no longer practiced within the community of the Jewish people because they are no longer lead as a people. They judge themselves individually under the Torah but nothing violated warrants stoning, not even adultery. After being scattered among the nations of the earth, they have no Moses or Joshua who hears from God to gather and take take them into the land of promise. They only have the Torah and their understanding of it without their Messiah, the 'cloud by day' and 'the fire by night'. I also think that the law was given to them through Moses because they refused to have God lead them being reflected by their behavior in the wilderness and through their murmurings and complainings, even with Moses and Aaron. All of that generation who came out of Egypt were destroyed in the wilderness except for Joshua and Caleb. God was not pleased with them and the law did not change their heart attitude toward God who delivered them with a great deliverance. The wilderness experienced has revealed to the Jews that the heart of man, which includes God's chosen people, is deceitful and desperately wicked as it was revealed to Jeremiah. The only remedy is to be merciful to their own transgressions and iniquities and hope that God will forgiven them of these.

 

[just-me]

To answer you question, Christ did neither, He didn't destroy the OT-which would be to destroy Himself NOR did he teach us now to preform the rituals in the OT but taught us how the things of the OT pointed to HIMSELF! HOW WE CAN OBTAIN OUR SABBATH REST IN HIM. And now that Christ came, we don't need the OT laws and rituals etc. to have a rightful, acceptable relationship with God. In This aspect the LAWS of the OT are dead! BUT, the OT still serves and has a purpose to teach us (about God's holy character and His plan of redemption) and to confirm to us that Christ is the Messiah!!!

Just curious about what you think about these dead OT laws.

Leviticus 19:11-18 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And ye shall not swear by my name falsely, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Thou shalt not curse the deaf, nor put a stumblingblock before the blind, but shalt fear thy God: I am the LORD.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Deuteronomy 6:1-2 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Now these are the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go to possess it:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.

Deuteronomy 18:15-19 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
[SUP]16 [/SUP]According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Impossible.

oh? show one which is not

 

[eternally-gratefull]

To answer you question, Christ did neither, He didn't destroy the OT-which would be to destroy Himself NOR did he teach us now to preform the rituals in the OT but taught us how the things of the OT pointed to HIMSELF! HOW WE CAN OBTAIN OUR SABBATH REST IN HIM. And now that Christ came, we don't need the OT laws and rituals etc. to have a rightful, acceptable relationship with God. In This aspect the LAWS of the OT are dead! BUT, the OT still serves and has a purpose to teach us (about God's holy character and His plan of redemption) and to confirm to us that Christ is the Messiah!!!

Well said brother. Long time no see!!

 

[just-me]

Well said brother. Long time no see!!

See post #104 brother. Dead is really not the term I would use. Previously issued before Christ would be more like the phrase or term that I would use. GBU

 

[eternally-gratefull]

See post #104 brother. Dead is really not the term I would use. Previously issued before Christ would be more like the phrase or term that I would use. GBU

in the context of how he put it. I would have probably used the same word.

As far as having any relp with God. it is dead, useless. It has no bearing. unless one is saved, There can be no relationship. And the law is powerless to do this. Unfortunately. Many want to turn to this to make themselves right with God.

 

[RedTent]

These posts are basically expressing two major sides. On one side are people who love their creator, a triune God that includes both Christ as Christ showed Himself since the year 30 and before, even. They love their Creator and listen to Him in all of scripture, not dividing it as scripture into before and after Christ but as a unit of scripture. They want to follow their God. The others say they like their God as one that is only spiritual. Christ didn't interfere with any of daily living, He just made it better because He added joy, love, and a way to eternal life to living, and you don't have to do one thing about it except change your attitude towards life. Scripture says that is enough, so they say don't hand me any of the God principles behind this from any additional picture of God. They say they read that, toss out some, don't understand some, and Christ tossed out some. They say when Christ gave his blood to use instead of animal blood, and gave the HS, it wasn't adding to make life better it was a completely new life. God said fulfilled. They say cancelled.

That is what God knew the pagans would say, and it is enough for salvation. God is allowing us to have more information about him in the world. He let some people learn the very ancient Hebrew language that opened up understanding of ancient writings we have in the bible. He is leading a select few to the next step, in learning not only of the Son, but the Father. People are saying that there were suggestions by the Father that I change how I live day to day and I don't wanna. So I reject everything about it. Take another step toward God? Absolutely not, they say, I am comfortable where I am at.

Well, every day there are people who are opening up their hearts. They opened their hearts to the Son, now they are opening their hearts to their creator, too, and all He is telling them.

There a lot of people who will stand firm where they are, they have salvation. But God is moving in the world and there are people who listen carefully and learn. They are blessed, not as much as the pagans were blessed who learned of Christ, but they are blessed. And persecuted by those who won't listen to God calling them in scripture. The dead sea scrolls are where a lot of the information that let to understanding ancient Hebrew came from, they were hidden from us in plain sight for two thousand years. Much of the bible is the same way, it was hidden from us in plain sight.

 

[just-me]

These posts are basically expressing two major sides. On one side are people who love their creator, a triune God that includes both Christ as Christ showed Himself since the year 30 and before, even. They love their Creator and listen to Him in all of scripture, not dividing it as scripture into before and after Christ but as a unit of scripture. They want to follow their God. The others say they like their God as one that is only spiritual. Christ didn't interfere with any of daily living, He just made it better because He added joy, love, and a way to eternal life to living, and you don't have to do one thing about it except change your attitude towards life. Scripture says that is enough, so they say don't hand me any of the God principles behind this from any additional picture of God. They say they read that, toss out some, don't understand some, and Christ tossed out some. They say when Christ gave his blood to use instead of animal blood, and gave the HS, it wasn't adding to make life better it was a completely new life. God said fulfilled. They say cancelled.

When I was reading all of what you wrote here, I thought about the falling away in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 directly aimed toward religion, (for if there is a falling away, then whatever fell, was once was up close) the bride of Christ, and the guests at the wedding feast. There are some that don't know the difference between the guests and the bride. And then a scripture came to mind out of the book of Revelation also directly aimed toward religion.

Revelation 3:14-18 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
[SUP]15 [/SUP]I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
[SUP]18 [/SUP]I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

These posts are basically expressing two major sides. On one side are people who love their creator, a triune God that includes both Christ as Christ showed Himself since the year 30 and before, even. They love their Creator and listen to Him in all of scripture, not dividing it as scripture into before and after Christ but as a unit of scripture. They want to follow their God. The others say they like their God as one that is only spiritual. Christ didn't interfere with any of daily living, He just made it better because He added joy, love, and a way to eternal life to living, and you don't have to do one thing about it except change your attitude towards life. Scripture says that is enough, so they say don't hand me any of the God principles behind this from any additional picture of God. They say they read that, toss out some, don't understand some, and Christ tossed out some. They say when Christ gave his blood to use instead of animal blood, and gave the HS, it wasn't adding to make life better it was a completely new life. God said fulfilled. They say cancelled.

That is what God knew the pagans would say, and it is enough for salvation. God is allowing us to have more information about him in the world. He let some people learn the very ancient Hebrew language that opened up understanding of ancient writings we have in the bible. He is leading a select few to the next step, in learning not only of the Son, but the Father. People are saying that there were suggestions by the Father that I change how I live day to day and I don't wanna. So I reject everything about it. Take another step toward God? Absolutely not, they say, I am comfortable where I am at.

Well, every day there are people who are opening up their hearts. They opened their hearts to the Son, now they are opening their hearts to their creator, too, and all He is telling them.

There a lot of people who will stand firm where they are, they have salvation. But God is moving in the world and there are people who listen carefully and learn. They are blessed, not as much as the pagans were blessed who learned of Christ, but they are blessed. And persecuted by those who won't listen to God calling them in scripture. The dead sea scrolls are where a lot of the information that let to understanding ancient Hebrew came from, they were hidden from us in plain sight for two thousand years. Much of the bible is the same way, it was hidden from us in plain sight.

I strongly disagree. To say those of us who UNDERSTAND the old covenant and its picture which leads us to Christ, And that now that the fulfillment is complete. That God finally can relate to us the way it was intended in the first place (not with ritual and ceremony and sacrifice) but as a father/son or daghter, do not love God is quite shameful. Most of us have studied the OT deeply, and have a clear understanding of it. Probably more than many saying we do not care about it.

This is quite sad!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

When I was reading all of what you wrote here, I thought about the falling away in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 directly aimed toward religion, (for if there is a falling away, then whatever fell, was once was up close) the bride of Christ, and the guests at the wedding feast. There are some that don't know the difference between the guests and the bride. And then a scripture came to mind out of the book of Revelation also directly aimed toward religion.

Revelation 3:14-18 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
[SUP]15 [/SUP]I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
[SUP]18 [/SUP]I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

I think this represents a good picture of the church since about 300 AD. when it was destroyed with peganism and its rituals in the name of God. and continues today.

Neither cold (evil) or Hot (saved) so close to the truth, yet so far from it, many will cry in that day begging Gods mercy, Did We not do all these things in your name?? And jesus will say depart, for I never knew you (spit you out)

 

[Abiding]

These posts are basically expressing two major sides. On one side are people who love their creator, a triune God that includes both Christ as Christ showed Himself since the year 30 and before, even. They love their Creator and listen to Him in all of scripture, not dividing it as scripture into before and after Christ but as a unit of scripture. They want to follow their God. The others say they like their God as one that is only spiritual. Christ didn't interfere with any of daily living, He just made it better because He added joy, love, and a way to eternal life to living, and you don't have to do one thing about it except change your attitude towards life. Scripture says that is enough, so they say don't hand me any of the God principles behind this from any additional picture of God. They say they read that, toss out some, don't understand some, and Christ tossed out some. They say when Christ gave his blood to use instead of animal blood, and gave the HS, it wasn't adding to make life better it was a completely new life. God said fulfilled. They say cancelled.

That is what God knew the pagans would say, and it is enough for salvation. God is allowing us to have more information about him in the world. He let some people learn the very ancient Hebrew language that opened up understanding of ancient writings we have in the bible. He is leading a select few to the next step, in learning not only of the Son, but the Father. People are saying that there were suggestions by the Father that I change how I live day to day and I don't wanna. So I reject everything about it. Take another step toward God? Absolutely not, they say, I am comfortable where I am at.

Well, every day there are people who are opening up their hearts. They opened their hearts to the Son, now they are opening their hearts to their creator, too, and all He is telling them.

There a lot of people who will stand firm where they are, they have salvation. But God is moving in the world and there are people who listen carefully and learn. They are blessed, not as much as the pagans were blessed who learned of Christ, but they are blessed. And persecuted by those who won't listen to God calling them in scripture. The dead sea scrolls are where a lot of the information that let to understanding ancient Hebrew came from, they were hidden from us in plain sight for two thousand years. Much of the bible is the same way, it was hidden from us in plain sight.

Where do you come up with all this. Its a mess Redtent. The Son was the creator. The fullness of the Godhead.
The deadsea scrolls didnt add a thing to anything. But you go on with this...i just dont see a bit of substance
in anything you say. From the beginning God chose only "one way" old and new testament bear that out.

 

[svedbygrace]

Did Christ cancel the OT, or teach us how to use it?

Neither, He fulfilled it for His People.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Where do you come up with all this. Its a mess Redtent. The Son was the creator. The fullness of the Godhead.
The deadsea scrolls didnt add a thing to anything. But you go on with this...i just dont see a bit of substance
in anything you say. From the beginning God chose only "one way" old and new testament bear that out.

from genesis 3: 15 till the end of revelation. It has ALWAYS been about jesus, and how God will restor mankind to the relationship with God lost when adam and eve fell!

It was hidden in the OT, but seen, and revealed on that day when Christ uttered the words of the psalmist, "my God, my God why has thou forsaken (departed) from me.

Jesus spiritual death on the cross paid the way for ALL mankind to be restored and all the things promised and seen through symbols revealed..

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

oh? show one which is not

Covered in another thread:
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...d-times-yhwh-yet-unfulfilled.html#post1116925

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Covered in another thread:
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...d-times-yhwh-yet-unfulfilled.html#post1116925

covered, and shown to be in error.

If they are not fulfilled. We are still in our sin, and no one can be assured of eternal life. only eternal death!

 

[RedTent]

I strongly disagree. To say those of us who UNDERSTAND the old covenant and its picture which leads us to Christ, And that now that the fulfillment is complete. That God finally can relate to us the way it was intended in the first place (not with ritual and ceremony and sacrifice) but as a father/son or daghter, do not love God is quite shameful. Most of us have studied the OT deeply, and have a clear understanding of it. Probably more than many saying we do not care about it.

This is quite sad!

This is putting the side about Christ's place so very well! If, you say, we use any God suggestions like rituals or ceremony as worship helps, it would only lead away from God. Saying the Lord's Prayer is a ritual, it can be done legalistically. The habit of saying it could lead to having it no more than habit. Does that make using the Lord's Prayer in our prayer life wrong? Our side says you are tossing out what could be used for good, as the Father said, but not that you may not come to eternal life your way. And you say you are so smart and complete you don't need any ancient Hebrew understanding, you toss that out, too. Well, I'll bet God says you are complete and God accepts you just as you are, but God gave you a way to grow. You are judging, the other side isn't.

 

[godsgirl3777]

No way!! The OT ties in with the NT I mean for example with prophecy no Biblical prophecy would be complete without the book of revelation AND the book of Daniel. Genesis is for example the Alphaand Revelation is the Omega. God also said that his Word would never pass away

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

covered, and shown to be in error.

If they are not fulfilled. We are still in our sin, and no one can be assured of eternal life. only eternal death!

Disagree.

The sacrifice has been made that is sufficient for all, but atonement has been made only for those who are currently in the kingdom of GOD. Atonement cannot be made for any outside of the kingdom. That is impossible. Look to the OT. There was no such thing as atonement for anyone who was not part of Israel. Outsiders could offer sacrifices in reverance, but it was pointless for them to offer sin offerings for violations of laws they were not under.

At this point in time there are people who exist but are not in the kingdom, and those who do not yet exist, who one day will receive the atonement when they are baptized into Christ. Until that time, they are not in the congregation of GOD, and cannot benefit from the atonement.