Did Jesus Return in AD 70?

[GodIsSalvation]

I know this is not a popular belief, but I think that the abomination of desolation may have been Caiaphas or Pontius. Caiaphas denied Jesus and asked for a murderer to be released. He also said, "We have no King except Caesar!", denying Jesus and God (I am not debating at this point that they are not the same, but Caiaphas most likely did not consider Jesus and God to be one). God was killed by his own people. Whether the abomination was Caiaphas or Pontius (who I believe was in the temple when he made the judgment to allow Jesus to be killed) I cannot think of a greater abomination than the Son of God being beaten and killed at the request of the chosen people!

Never heard this interpretation before, but I think this is also wrong. Caiaphas and Pontius Pilate were people, they were not the Abomination of Desolation. The Abomination of Desolation is an image of the 1st Beast created by the 2nd Beast.

Plus remember Jesus had to die on the cross. He could have easily escaped, but He chose not to because He knew what had to be done. Therefore Caiaphas and Pontius Pilate are not the Abomination of Desolation just from that reasoning alone.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Another case of, " Putting the cart before the horse. "

This is a big issue for those who claim bible events have already taken place like revelations, prophecies in Daniel, Ezekiel, and Isaiah. They try to use events to match their reasoning, but forget about all the other things that have to happen first or just write them off completely.

 

[Timeline]

Never heard this interpretation before, but I think this is also wrong. Caiaphas and Pontius Pilate were people, they were not the Abomination of Desolation. The Abomination of Desolation is an image of the 1st Beast created by the 2nd Beast.

Plus remember Jesus had to die on the cross. He could have easily escaped, but He chose not to because He knew what had to be done. Therefore Caiaphas and Pontius Pilate are not the Abomination of Desolation just from that reasoning alone.

I disagree, just because it was God's plan for our salvation, does not mean that it was not an abomination. And I personally believe that the beast of Rev. 17 was Israel/Judah.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]“The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits, [SUP]10 [/SUP]and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while. [SUP]11 [/SUP]The beast which was and is not, is himself also an eighth and is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction. [SUP]12 [/SUP]The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour. [SUP]13 [/SUP]These have one purpose, and they give their power and authority to the beast.

I believe that the Kings may be Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, etc. I will stop there, but the beast is the resulting (and existing at the time that Rev. was written) state of the chosen people at that time. The harlot that rode on the beast was Jerusalem, in my humble opinion. If you are familiar with the OT, and I believe you are, then you know that God called Israel "Egypt" long after they left Egypt because they were acting like Egyptians. In Revelation, God calls them Babylon, because they had become like Babylonians. To me this seems pretty clear, but I do realize my humanity and the possibility that I am wrong.

 

[kennethcadwell]

I am glad that you say you might be wrong because not to many will mention that. By the way except for David the rest of the names you mentioned were not Kings.

I disagree, just because it was God's plan for our salvation, does not mean that it was not an abomination. And I personally believe that the beast of Rev. 17 was Israel/Judah.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]“The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits, [SUP]10 [/SUP]and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while. [SUP]11 [/SUP]The beast which was and is not, is himself also an eighth and is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction. [SUP]12 [/SUP]The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour. [SUP]13 [/SUP]These have one purpose, and they give their power and authority to the beast.

I believe that the Kings may be Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, etc. I will stop there, but the beast is the resulting (and existing at the time that Rev. was written) state of the chosen people at that time. The harlot that rode on the beast was Jerusalem, in my humble opinion. If you are familiar with the OT, and I believe you are, then you know that God called Israel "Egypt" long after they left Egypt because they were acting like Egyptians. In Revelation, God calls them Babylon, because they had become like Babylonians. To me this seems pretty clear, but I do realize my humanity and the possibility that I am wrong.

 

[Timeline]

Another case of, " Putting the cart before the horse. "

This is a big issue for those who claim bible events have already taken place like revelations, prophecies in Daniel, Ezekiel, and Isaiah. They try to use events to match their reasoning, but forget about all the other things that have to happen first or just write them off completely.

Many people try to read scripture to see if what they think is right. Some just listen to others and don't take the time to read it for themselves. Some have opinions and then read to prove them. Some read and form opinions and then try to match everything to their opinions. The real problem is when we find something that totally disproves our opinions that we refuse to accept it. Here's the thing, I have not put all the pieces together, but I have found enough to disprove many other theories (in my own mind) so I have rejected them. Fortunately, I don't believe that completely understanding everything that the prophets said is a salvation issue. But I also enjoy reading the prophets and would like to know.

 

[GodIsSalvation]

I disagree, just because it was God's plan for our salvation, does not mean that it was not an abomination. And I personally believe that the beast of Rev. 17 was Israel/Judah.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]“The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits, [SUP]10 [/SUP]and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while. [SUP]11 [/SUP]The beast which was and is not, is himself also an eighth and is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction. [SUP]12 [/SUP]The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour. [SUP]13 [/SUP]These have one purpose, and they give their power and authority to the beast.

I believe that the Kings may be Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, etc. I will stop there, but the beast is the resulting (and existing at the time that Rev. was written) state of the chosen people at that time. The harlot that rode on the beast was Jerusalem, in my humble opinion. If you are familiar with the OT, and I believe you are, then you know that God called Israel "Egypt" long after they left Egypt because they were acting like Egyptians. In Revelation, God calls them Babylon, because they had become like Babylonians. To me this seems pretty clear, but I do realize my humanity and the possibility that I am wrong.

Lol a prophecy does not deal with the past but with the future.

I get you don't like that Caiaphas and Pilate made pretty much the entire world responsible for condemning Jesus and crucifying him, but this is not the Abomination of Desolation.

The Abomination of Desolation is an idol. You will notice throughout the Bible from OT through NT it is the pagan idols/no-gods that are referred to as a abominations frequently. If that isn't enough to convince you, it is pretty plainly stated in Revelation 13 the Beast of the Earth will make an image (an idol) to the beast with the head wound and even cause the idol to speak.

 

[Timeline]

Lol a prophecy does not deal with the past but with the future.

I get you don't like that Caiaphas and Pilate made pretty much the entire world responsible for condemning Jesus and crucifying him, but this is not the Abomination of Desolation.

The Abomination of Desolation is an idol. You will notice throughout the Bible from OT through NT it is the pagan idols/no-gods that are referred to as a abominations frequently. If that isn't enough to convince you, it is pretty plainly stated in Revelation 13 the Beast of the Earth will make an image (an idol) to the beast with the head wound and even cause the idol to speak.

Rev 1:19 Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things.


John, himself, wrote that some of Revelation had already happened.

 

[Timeline]

I am glad that you say you might be wrong because not to many will mention that. By the way except for David the rest of the names you mentioned were not Kings.

Adam - Father/Leader of all the living
Noah - Father/Husband/Leader of all that survived.
Abraham - Father of many nations and all nations were blessed through him
Moses - Leader of all of Israel / And God says to Moses, “See, I make you as God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet. (Ex. 7:1)

Maybe not kings on a throne, but the same concept.

 

[And]

After Jesus returns the earth is a brned out shell with no life left on it...
not yet..

 

[GodIsSalvation]

Rev 1:19 Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things.


John, himself, wrote that some of Revelation had already happened.

That actually not John's words, but the words of Jesus to John telling him to write what he sees, what is and what will come hereafter. This is a command to John to write Revelation.

Revelation 1

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
[SUP]18 [/SUP]I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
[SUP]20 [/SUP]The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

 

[Timeline]

Adam - Father/Leader of all the living
Noah - Father/Husband/Leader of all that survived.
Abraham - Father of many nations and all nations were blessed through him
Moses - Leader of all of Israel / And God says to Moses, “See, I make you as God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet. (Ex. 7:1)

Maybe not kings on a throne, but the same concept.

Also, in reference to the mountains, God made covenants with these men and several (probably all, but I have not found them all) involved a mountain, a sacrifice, and a sign:

Adam - No mention - This is not clear either: snake, pain in childbirth, cursed ground
Noah - Ararat - Rainbow
Abraham - one of the mountain of which I will tell you - circumcision
Moses - Sinai - Sabbath

 

[Timeline]

That actually not John's words, but the words of Jesus to John telling him to write what he sees, what is and what will come hereafter. This is a command to John to write Revelation.

Revelation 1

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
[SUP]18 [/SUP]I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
[SUP]20 [/SUP]The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

So they are Jesus' words that John wrote, does that make them less credible?

 

[GodIsSalvation]

So they are Jesus' words that John wrote, does that make them less credible?

Not at all, but this helps gain understanding to the words to put them into clearer perspective. That perspective would be that verse in particular is a commandment to John to write what he has seen so far and what John is seeing in chapter 1 and what comes thereafter. Lol this first chapter tells you exactly how John wrote Revelation, where he wrote it, and why.

 

[Timeline]

Not at all, but this helps gain understanding to the words to put them into clearer perspective. That perspective would be that verse in particular is a commandment to John to write what he has seen so far and what John is seeing in chapter 1 and what comes thereafter. Lol this first chapter tells you exactly how John wrote Revelation, where he wrote it, and why.

I believe that he is saying that some of Revelation has already happened and some of it was going to happen. But I believe that all, if not most, has already happened.

 

[GodIsSalvation]

I believe that he is saying that some of Revelation has already happened and some of it was going to happen. But I believe that all, if not most, has already happened.

Sigh, but that's not what's being said at all. It is much more probable that none of Revelation happened yet. Revelation is a prophecy, not a history. It would not make sense for it to talk about things that have all ready passed, at least before the writing of the prophecy. Now whether the signs began to come to pass after the writing of the prophecy might be a bit more fair of a debate. Though I am still pretty convinced Revelation has not happened yet but that all the prophecies contained therein shall pass in the time of the last generations.

 

[Timeline]

Sigh, but that's not what's being said at all. It is much more probable that none of Revelation happened yet. Revelation is a prophecy, not a history. It would not make sense for it to talk about things that have all ready passed, at least before the writing of the prophecy. Now whether the signs began to come to pass after the writing of the prophecy might be a bit more fair of a debate. Though I am still pretty convinced Revelation has not happened yet but that all the prophecies contained therein shall pass in the time of the last generations.

Yes, a most of it was prophecy when John saw it and still some after the resurrection. But all of it was fulfilled with the formation of the church and the destruction of the temple and the blood line of the Levites. The new Jerusalem is the church.

Rev 21:9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” The bride is the Church - This is referenced in the new testament.

Rev 21:22-27 [SUP] [/SUP]I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. [SUP]23 [/SUP]And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb. [SUP]24 [/SUP]The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. [SUP]25 [/SUP]In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed; [SUP]26 [/SUP]and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it; [SUP]27 [/SUP]and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Again, I believe this is the present and eternal kingdom. This in not something that we are waiting for because we are in it.


Rev 22:1-9 Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, [SUP]2 [/SUP]in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. [SUP]3 [/SUP]There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him; [SUP]4 [/SUP]they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.[SUP]6 [/SUP]And he said to me, “These words are faithful and true”; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]“And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who[SUP] [/SUP]heeds the words of the prophecy of this book.”
[SUP]8 [/SUP]I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But he *said to me, “Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God.”

The river is the Holy Spirit. The tree of Life is Jesus. The curse of death has been lifted in Jesus. I do find it interesting that it says twelve fruits, while the bible lists nine fruits of the Spirit.


Rev 22:10-12
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And he *said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy.”
[SUP]12 [/SUP]“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. [SUP]13 [/SUP]I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

The time is near. Do not seal up the words of this prophecy. I am coming quickly. Soon, soon, soon. In Daniel it says to keep the words secret, because that prophecy referred to many days in the future. Both have been fulfilled. No, I haven't put it all together, but this is where I am working from because it seems to "fit" better than the other interpretations that I have heard. By the way, I did come to this understanding without the aid of commentaries - Just good old bible reading. I have found someone that is very close to the same understanding: Foy Wallace. I need to read the whole book, but I haven't got around to it yet.

 

[GodIsSalvation]

I believe the New Jerusalem is an actual city where those that dwell in Jesus will live forever and ever after the end of days.

Now I suppose to be technical, you are correct that much of this was fulfilled because of Jesus birth, life, curcifixion, and resurrection. However Revelation I feel deals with the end of time. So while it is accurate to say New Jerusalem is prepared for us and Jesus prepare the way for the souls of man to join with Him, we have to remember we still live in Fallen World. The Dragon still shouts across the planet and the righteous martyrs of the Lamb are still being counted. Revelation could occur in my lifetime, it might occur hundreds of years from now. However knowing a fair deal about history and our modern era (at least mroeso than most my peers) I feel pretty confident that the majority if not all of Revelations has not occured yet.

As far as I could hazard a guess 7 Letters might be fulfilled if we assume John wrote the 7 Letter and distributed them shortly after the Revelation. I have pondered before that the Four Horsemen might have passed with the fall of Rome and the Dark Ages, but I find this to be unlikely. The 5th Seal I suppose fair enough we cannot know if this is fulfilled or not since we are for present in this mortal world.

However then we come to the 6th Seal. This I can find no trace of in history. The events of the 6th Seal described is much too big to be able to be ignored in history, thus I cannot think it has passed. Thus if this sign has not passed yet, there's a good chance the other Seals have not yet been broken either and that all these signs are signs to come.

 

[john832]

Rev 1:19 Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things.


John, himself, wrote that some of Revelation had already happened.

This is not really what this is saying, Christ is telling John to write the VISIONS he has seen. John saw the visions but not the final fulfillment.

 

[john832]

After Jesus returns the earth is a brned out shell with no life left on it...
not yet..

Where in the world did you read that?

 

[Bookends]

We don't set up the conditions, the bible tells us what to look for. Jesus even said what to look for before His return, and some of those have not happened yet. Plus if you read Ezekiel you will read of a temple God showed him that would be built, and the dimensions mentioned do not math the 1st and 2nd temple dimensions.

Plus if Jesus already made His second coming, where is the 1000 years of everybody on earth being under His rule. The battle of Armageddon has not happened, and also why is there still suffering, sadness, evil, and wars taking place when the bible says that will be no more.

I never said 70AD was His second coming, as a physical manifestation. However, 70AD was coming of Christ in Judgment against an apostate nation, Israel and Jerusalem as the capital. Just like how God came and judged other cities and nations in the OT.