Did we lose the 'culture war'?

[crossnote]

What have I written that should produce your reaction? Do I love my children? yes. I follow what Jesus taught and teach them as we are supposed to. I show Jesus so when they are older they can make an informed choice. I don't quite understand your words. If you mean that loving everyone is wrong then say so.

A homosexual is still someone Jesus died for, Jesus came to save sinners, but they are dead to God until they believe, if they do not or chose not to believe that is there choice. Their actions are their own and they will face judgement for them, but not from me.

How do you treat your children?

I was addressing these of your post...

"If we do not show the love of God to everyone we meet then we are not doing His commands."

and ...

"I would take it a step further and say why should we judge those who do? why judge at all? I know from experience that if God wants to change someone He can, without my shouting and balling. If anything I would probably get in the way."

First off, showing love is meaningless if somewhere you do not warn a person that the direction they are heading without Christ is destructive. That is simply narcissistic apathy. Jesus told us to preach the gospel...that already judges a person as guilty before a Holy God apart from the saving work of Christ. Your caricature of 'shouting and bawling' is sad and reveals your attitude towards those who have a passion for the lost. I hope you at least see your children as born in sin and in need of the Gospel and not just a good example.

 

[crossnote]

You’ve made my point. Although our country began with a correct moral compass, it has lost its way. Since humanism appeals to the unregenerate mind, it isn’t surprising it has been so successful. The problem is that Christianity has chosen the wrong battles. Rather than recognizing its strength is the power of the Gospel and using that power to change the hearts and minds of individuals, Christians instead have chosen to force moral obedience through political force, and they’ve lost. The Early Church was the most successful church in history with regard to winning a culture over to Christianity, and they did it without relying on forcing the change through politics.



Absolutely. Fire and brimstone is very much part of the Gospel. The Early Church never pulled punches while criticizing the morals of Roman society. The pagans accused the Christians of incest, cannibalism and child sacrifice etc. The Apologist denied those accusations and were quick to point out that it was the pagans who were dumping off their unwanted newborns at the garbage dumps, and that it was the Christians who were rescuing the babies and giving them life. Christian writers didn’t hesitate to deride the pagans for the cruelty of abortion and point out that abortion wasn’t practiced by Christians. The Apologist turned the table on the pagans by denying their accusations and pointing out that instead it was the pagans who were practicing immoral acts.

The early Christians couldn’t and didn’t force their morals on the society. Instead they humbly practiced Biblical principles and by so doing put the nail in the coffin of paganism. It was common practice for the Early Christians to take care of the widow, orphan and poor. When the plague (possibly measles or mumps) came to Rome and many were dying the able populace left town, leaving the sick to die of starvation and dehydration. However, the Christians stayed to nurse the sick—Christian and pagan—to health. Christian piety was so wide spread by the reign of Julian the Apostate (as emperor Julian was determined to restore paganism to the empire) that he complained that it was disgraceful that the Christians were supporting not only their poor but the pagan poor as well while the pagans were doing little or nothing in this area. It was by living out Biblical teaching and by the willingness to witness to their pagan neighbors through their blood that the early Christians won the culture war in their society. It was not by forcing their morals on their society through political means.



My point is against forcing the unregenerate populace in our society to keep Biblical morals through winning political battles. The only way Christians can keep Biblical morals is through the resurrection power of the Holy Spirit. This concept is totally foreign to our pagan neighbors and it is arrogant to expect them to accept and keep our morals, especially when they see Evangelical Christianity struggling to keep them ourselves. This totally turns them off to the Christian message. They see us as judgmental and as hypocrites. Jesus said, “I desire compassion, and not sacrifice,’ for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners” (Mt. 9:13). What will influence our society toward Christ is Christians practicing Biblical compassion and love.

Paul wrote, “But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one. [SUP]12 [/SUP]For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? [SUP]13 [/SUP]But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves.” (1 Cor. 5:11-13). If Christians want to win the culture war, we must stop judging our unregenerate neighbors and show them compassion instead. If we’re concerned about immorality, it would be good if we followed Paul’s advice and cleaned our own house and gave the world an example to follow.

I understand that ultimately our hope is in the Gospel for societal transformation as well as personal.
But I see nothing wrong with Christians being involved on a political level holding and even pushing for some level of societal sanity based on the Universal Code God has given all mankind written in the 10 Commandments.
Yes society may buck against them as it is in fallen man's nature to do so but it is no excuse to just chuck the fight for those values as well as others who are burdened to evangelize the Good News. After all, the Holy Spirit uses the law to help the lost to see their sinfulness.

 

[notuptome]

The modern church has exchanged her fiduciary responsibilities for fame and fortune. The respect of men for the faithfulness toward God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[bikerchaz]

I was addressing these of your post...

"If we do not show the love of God to everyone we meet then we are not doing His commands."

and ...

"I would take it a step further and say why should we judge those who do? why judge at all? I know from experience that if God wants to change someone He can, without my shouting and balling. If anything I would probably get in the way."

First off, showing love is meaningless if somewhere you do not warn a person that the direction they are heading without Christ is destructive. That is simply narcissistic apathy. Jesus told us to preach the gospel...that already judges a person as guilty before a Holy God apart from the saving work of Christ. Your caricature of 'shouting and bawling' is sad and reveals your attitude towards those who have a passion for the lost. I hope you at least see your children as born in sin and in need of the Gospel and not just a good example.

I think I see what you are getting at. I agree with you on this, but what is true love? How can I say "I love you no matter what" and then let whoever walk of a cliff? That is not love, love protects and upholds. It isn't wishy washy fragrant nothingness. The gospel that people need to hear is that 'Jesus died for our sins so we do not have to'. Life without Jesus is very short, and lasts a life time, not long in the scheme of things. Both you and I crossnote are heading toward the end of our run on this mortal coil.

I find Jesus is the best at doing this by Himself. No matter what, I include Jesus somewhere in my interactions with the world, or try to. The love I hope I show is based on what He has done for me. Non of us can do otherwise or more. A little like Jeremiah, I am conscious of the blood of those I meet being on my head If I don't at least let Jesus in somewhere.

The condemnation for their actions then comes from Jesus directly to them. There are times that a violent reaction occurres, sometimes not much can be seen on the surface, but where the Spirit touches the world there always will be a reaction, even if it is hidden in someone's heart.

For me, if I were to start a conversation with, "Oh so your gay are you, don't you know you are going to hell if you don't believe?" does not belong in my inventory of opening remarks. I would hope that Jesus leading my actions as I keep Him close to me within those scenarios will show what they would need to see.

I used to be a member of MAG, "Motorcycle Action Group", they have offices all over the UK. it is a political pressure group, making sure that 'riders rights' are not overlooked within government policy. We met every fortnight. The group I was a member of was dwindling and about to be swallowed up by the group in a larger town, for economies sake. I heard one of my friends say something and turned around and could not see him, I was introduced to a lass called Sue and said hello, out of her mouth came the voice of my friend. It knocked me sideways. I didn't know. The upshot being I was angry because he hadn't said anything and I thought we were friends, and I was disgusted by his/her self mutilation. I knew he hadn't been well and been in hospital, we had all sent him a card, Eeeww. I didn't know Jesus then.

I have seen Sue since, the first thing I can't help but think to myself is she walks like a bloke, she has a blokes voice and I do feel awkward even now. She/he knows who I am and doesn't go out of her/his way to avoid me and its the same for myself.

I have only spoken with her/him once since the first meeting with her/him and that was over a fuel intake problem with his/her Ducati and it didn't last long. As we parted company I was in prayer and we haven't talked since. But I know when we do meet the conversation will not start with condemnation, it will not start with anything but love and anything I am asked will, God willing, be answered through the Spirit. I am not going to start rehearsing what to say in any given situation, I trust God to lead.

It is the same for my children. I talk to them, I show them what it means to me to be with Jesus as His constant companion in this life. I have two very nice young men in my household. I am proud of each to their own abilities, like chalk and cheese they are different but there is no difference between the love they receive, and the correction and guidance they also receive.

I do feel you have judged me brother, while you do not know me or my family. I do love you as I am supposed to do, so if there is offence in my words for you I apologise. I did find a little offence in your words and I forgive you and ask that you would forgive me for seeing that offence. but I will not say anything about judgement, that belongs to Jesus and I will not get in His way.
God bless you brother.

 

[crossnote]

I hope you don't take the same approach with your children, who, btw, are part of society.
I also hope 'showing love' includes speaking the truth as well as showing acts of kindness.

I think I see what you are getting at. I agree with you on this, but what is true love? How can I say "I love you no matter what" and then let whoever walk of a cliff? That is not love, love protects and upholds. It isn't wishy washy fragrant nothingness. The gospel that people need to hear is that 'Jesus died for our sins so we do not have to'. Life without Jesus is very short, and lasts a life time, not long in the scheme of things. Both you and I crossnote are heading toward the end of our run on this mortal coil.

I find Jesus is the best at doing this by Himself. No matter what, I include Jesus somewhere in my interactions with the world, or try to. The love I hope I show is based on what He has done for me. Non of us can do otherwise or more. A little like Jeremiah, I am conscious of the blood of those I meet being on my head If I don't at least let Jesus in somewhere.

The condemnation for their actions then comes from Jesus directly to them. There are times that a violent reaction occurres, sometimes not much can be seen on the surface, but where the Spirit touches the world there always will be a reaction, even if it is hidden in someone's heart.

For me, if I were to start a conversation with, "Oh so your gay are you, don't you know you are going to hell if you don't believe?" does not belong in my inventory of opening remarks. I would hope that Jesus leading my actions as I keep Him close to me within those scenarios will show what they would need to see.

I used to be a member of MAG, "Motorcycle Action Group", they have offices all over the UK. it is a political pressure group, making sure that 'riders rights' are not overlooked within government policy. We met every fortnight. The group I was a member of was dwindling and about to be swallowed up by the group in a larger town, for economies sake. I heard one of my friends say something and turned around and could not see him, I was introduced to a lass called Sue and said hello, out of her mouth came the voice of my friend. It knocked me sideways. I didn't know. The upshot being I was angry because he hadn't said anything and I thought we were friends, and I was disgusted by his/her self mutilation. I knew he hadn't been well and been in hospital, we had all sent him a card, Eeeww. I didn't know Jesus then.

I have seen Sue since, the first thing I can't help but think to myself is she walks like a bloke, she has a blokes voice and I do feel awkward even now. She/he knows who I am and doesn't go out of her/his way to avoid me and its the same for myself.

I have only spoken with her/him once since the first meeting with her/him and that was over a fuel intake problem with his/her Ducati and it didn't last long. As we parted company I was in prayer and we haven't talked since. But I know when we do meet the conversation will not start with condemnation, it will not start with anything but love and anything I am asked will, God willing, be answered through the Spirit. I am not going to start rehearsing what to say in any given situation, I trust God to lead.

It is the same for my children. I talk to them, I show them what it means to me to be with Jesus as His constant companion in this life. I have two very nice young men in my household. I am proud of each to their own abilities, like chalk and cheese they are different but there is no difference between the love they receive, and the correction and guidance they also receive.

I do feel you have judged me brother, while you do not know me or my family. I do love you as I am supposed to do, so if there is offence in my words for you I apologise. I did find a little offence in your words and I forgive you and ask that you would forgive me for seeing that offence. but I will not say anything about judgement, that belongs to Jesus and I will not get in His way.
God bless you brother.

I really didn't judge you per se personally, but your words. I did express myself not in judgmental way but in hope (see post 38 above).
I realize you are a sensitive individual and I am not quite as much. I could say 'I forgive you', but I have nothing against you to forgive.

 

[oldethennew]

we are all judged in some way or another by either what we say or what we do...
we are not in charge of how someone may interpret our words or actions, but what we are
in charge of is if we are doing or saying what our Father puts upon our hearts, if we Love Him -
first and above 'all else'- if we are 100% sure of our heart's true motives, well, then I must say that
we have reached a growth-level in our Spiritual journey that many in the world are also praying and working
very hard to achieve with their whole hearts and minds, for to please and honor our Holy Father is all
that there is that counts in the end, in this wicked world that we have been born into...

 

[JGIG]

I know! It's horrible. I actually saw a woman on TV recently wearing a dress that exposed her arms AND shoulders.

You watch TV?!?!?!

 

[JaumeJ]

I watch TV...since the 1940's. I loved "I Love Lucy," but I was horrified when I learned she dyed her hair......(something called henna.)

 

[JGIG]

Do these laws effect us in our Salvation or our walk with God? No.

Like i said, we live in a World where most people follow Satan, not God.

Just because a Country passes a law saying we cannot discriminate against a person if he is a Homosexual, in no ways effects our walk with Jesus!

Did you know back in the days of the Book of Acts it was illegal to be a Christian?

We are to judge only those who are Christians, we are NOT to judge those in the World.

So our country passes a law that says we can snuff out a child ...that doesn't affect that child? Or are we just being a wee narcissistic?

I agree with you both.

Here's the thing: God didn't call us to win a culture war, He called us to win souls.

The Church has lost sight of loving others into the Kingdom, sharing the Good News of the Work of Christ and has taken instead to judging the world for being, well, the world. The Church has decided to condemn the world for its behavior, sending the signal that it's behavior we care about and not people.

Jesus didn't change the world via legislation; He changed the world via love and grace, manifested in His Work. When the Body at large gets a vision to preach the Gospel of Christ's Work with the Lost instead of preaching their moral demands, we will see the culture change from the inside out as the Lost come into Christ and begin to bear His Fruit.

-JGIG

 

[Th0mas]

Part of an explanation.

"And if any one wished to go over to the Greeks, he hinders not him from eating with such persons; this too for the same reason. So also do we act; for our children and our brethren we leave nothing undone, but of strangers we do not make much account. How then? Did not Paul care for them that were without as well? Yes, he cared for them; but it was not till after they received the Gospel and he had made them subject to the doctrine of Christ, that he laid down laws for them. But so long as they despised, it was superfluous to speak the precepts of Christ to those who knew not Christ Himself."

NPNF1-12. Saint Chrysostom: Homilies on the Epistles of Paul to the Corinthians - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

About the link above, if you look to the top of the web page towards the left or right, you may see PREV or NEXT, click on any of those to look at pages of before or after.

To look at the contents of the works on the website, look towards top left hand corner for the symbol with lines in it near to PREV and click on it.

Matthew 18:

15 "If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over.

17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Corinthians 5: 12 & part of 13.

What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
God will judge those outside.

 

[JaumeJ]

Actually, there really is a lesson here. Just as I knew, even as a child, Lucy's hair was henna'd because it was in the script, I also knew that everything I saw on her show, on all other shows and the news, was not necessarily the truth.

My father always taold me, "Never believe anything you hear, and only half of what you see." Since the advent of cyber artistry, I have come to understand we should not believe anything we see either.

Of course, the Lord taught us this long before television or computers, so let's keep up the good behavior in His sight, amen.

I watch TV...since the 1940's. I loved "I Love Lucy," but I was horrified when I learned she dyed her hair......(something called henna.)

 

[crossnote]

I agree with you both.

Here's the thing: God didn't call us to win a culture war, He called us to win souls.

The Church has lost sight of loving others into the Kingdom, sharing the Good News of the Work of Christ and has taken instead to judging the world for being, well, the world. The Church has decided to condemn the world for its behavior, sending the signal that it's behavior we care about and not people.

Jesus didn't change the world via legislation; He changed the world via love and grace, manifested in His Work. When the Body at large gets a vision to preach the Gospel of Christ's Work with the Lost instead of preaching their moral demands, we will see the culture change from the inside out as the Lost come into Christ and begin to bear His Fruit.

-JGIG

Oh I agree, we are not to judge the unbeliever as Mike stated. But Christ calls us into all areas of life, and for some that includes the political arena. Part of loving others is exposing the cancer around them as well as in them. One may call this judgment, so be it, but it is with the intent to heal and not condemn.

 

[crossnote]

I watch TV...since the 1940's. I loved "I Love Lucy," but I was horrified when I learned she dyed her hair......(something called henna.)

Truly this is cultural, and besides the red hair with b/w tv sets one can see the beginning encroachment of looser morals.
The early Lucy's had them sleeping in separate beds the later in the same bed. The early Lucy's had extremely clean man/woman encounter, in the later flirting start up ...eventually and sadly they themselves divorced.

 

[JGIG]

Oh I agree, we are not to judge the unbeliever as Mike stated. But Christ calls us into all areas of life, and for some that includes the political arena. Part of loving others is exposing the cancer around them as well as in them. One may call this judgment, so be it, but it is with the intent to heal and not condemn.

Agreed.

Unfortunately so many go into that arena not with healing in mind, but in controlling the population so that morality is not insulted. They often attempt to stem behavior rather than minister to the person/people.

Also consider that Christ's approach was not political, but one on one personal interaction - and He changed the world.

-JGIG

 

[popeye]

I agree with you both.

Here's the thing: God didn't call us to win a culture war, He called us to win souls.

The Church has lost sight of loving others into the Kingdom, sharing the Good News of the Work of Christ and has taken instead to judging the world for being, well, the world. The Church has decided to condemn the world for its behavior, sending the signal that it's behavior we care about and not people.

Jesus didn't change the world via legislation; He changed the world via love and grace, manifested in His Work. When the Body at large gets a vision to preach the Gospel of Christ's Work with the Lost instead of preaching their moral demands, we will see the culture change from the inside out as the Lost come into Christ and begin to bear His Fruit.

-JGIG

Yes,and if you read the mayflower compact,it has God all over it.

 

[popeye]

In the name of God, Amen. We whose names are under-written, the loyal subjects of our dread sovereign Lord, King James, by the grace of God, of Great Britain, France, and Ireland King, Defender of the Faith, etc.
Having undertaken, for the glory of God, and advancement of the Christian faith, and honor of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia, do by these presents solemnly and mutually, in the presence of God, and one of another, covenant and combine our selves together into a civil body politic, for our better ordering and preservation and furtherance of the ends aforesaid; and by virtue hereof to enact, constitute, and frame such just and equal laws, ordinances, acts, constitutions and offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and convenient for the general good of the Colony, unto which we promise all due submission and obedience. In witness whereof we.....

 

[breno785au]

I think a huge part of the problem is 1. We don't understand or are not taught enough what it means that we are citizens of heaven. 2. That we belong and have unrestricted access to the Kingdom of God that has a culture (we saw Jesus and people in Acts) live out of that culture REGARDLESS of the culture they were in in the flesh. Obviously this takes time and is a continually learning and renewing process but if we arnt even believing, understanding and being taught this, we don't have a chance...Less complaining about the world we are in and more action in the spirit I say. 4. WE NEED WISDOM! I NEED WISDOM!