Dispensational Bible Study and Teaching was NOT created by Darby

ChosenbyHim · May 21, 2013

Well faith has been the element except for the edenic dispensation in the garden of Eden and also in the Millennial Kingdom. When God gave Adam the command to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, Adam did not need to believe anything, nor did he have to have faith in anything. All Adam needed to do was to obey the command which God had given him. He had received the command directly from God. And Adam agreed to the instruction which God had given to him. Therefore no faith was required on Adam's part, but just plain obedience. After all Adam could see God physically and he communed face to face with God in the cool of the day in the Garden of Eden before the fall. Plus Sarah, it should also be pointed out that there is no hint of Romans 10:9-10, Acts 13:39, or Acts 16:31 in Genesis 2. Adam is saved purely by works. No faith is involved.

And salvation will also be purely by works in the Millennial Kingdom since both Jews and Gentiles we see Jesus physically reigning from Jerusalem.

Revelation 22:14 KJV
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

There is no mention of faith in that verse. That is because people will not be required to have faith in the Millennial Kingdom. It will strictly be.either obedience or disobedience.

Now where I do agree with you Sarah, is that if we love Jesus, then we should truly have a desire to keep his words and His commandments. We should want to obey Him and His word.

SarahM777 · May 21, 2013

ChosenbyHim said:

Well faith has been the element except for the edenic dispensation in the garden of Eden and also in the Millennial Kingdom. When God gave Adam the command to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, Adam did not need to believe anything, nor did he have to have faith in anything. All Adam needed to do was to obey the command which God had given him. He had received the command directly from God. And Adam agreed to the instruction which God had given to him. Therefore no faith was required on Adam's part, but just plain obedience. After all Adam could see God physically and he communed face to face with God in the cool of the day in the Garden of Eden before the fall. Plus Sarah, it should also be pointed out that there is no hint of Romans 10:9-10, Acts 13:39, or Acts 16:31 in Genesis 2. Adam is saved purely by works. No faith is involved.

And salvation will also be purely by works in the Millennial Kingdom since both Jews and Gentiles we see Jesus physically reigning from Jerusalem.

Sorry You included a big if the Millennial Kingdom is symbolic and not literal. Two if the Millennial Kingdom is literal they will still need faith in Jesus as Savior. You cannot leave out all the verses that the righteous will live by faith.

zone · May 21, 2013

ChosenbyHim said:

will there be a temple with animal sacrifices for sins?
what WORKS will save people?

is it a return to the Old Covenant?
spell this out please.

ChosenbyHim · May 29, 2013

SarahM777 said:

No Sarah77, in the Millennial Kingdom, salvation will be acquired purely by works. It will be just like it was in the Garden of Eden with Adam. No faith is required in the Millennial Kingdom.

10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. - Revelation 22:10-16 (King James Bible)

Where in that passage do you see faith being mentioned?

I don't see faith being mentioned at all.

It does say though that blessed are they that do His commandments. It is salvation by works only. Faith will not be required because Jesus Christ will be physically present in Jerusalem, ruling and reigning with a rod of iron.

1still_waters · May 29, 2013

ChosenbyHim said:

And which Gospel did he preach?

Galatians 2

SarahM777 · May 29, 2013

ChosenbyHim said:

Sorry Chosen,

But if you only take that verse to make your claim,you have to leave out ALL the rest of the verses that say the righteous live by faith,you also have to leave out all the verses where Jesus says to obey. That is in the present. James also says faith without works is dead. The two go hand in hand. If you believe you will obey. It's not rocket science.
How can they be saved if they never believe in Him as savior?

SarahM777 · May 29, 2013

ChosenbyHim said:

Chosen,

Did Jesus say there would be another way to be saved when He said this?

John 3

10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[e] 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,[f] 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”[g]
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

Did Jesus ever say there was another way to be saved except through Him or did Jesus discredit that notion?

1still_waters · May 29, 2013

But why are people able to to the commandments in the first place?
Because they are saved by grace through faith.

We only do his commands because of the work of grace through faith that's been done in us.

We see this clearly working itself out in John 15

15 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He[SUP][a][/SUP]prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. [SUP]3 [/SUP]You are already [SUP][b][/SUP]clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit [SUP][c][/SUP]of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. [SUP]5 [/SUP]I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. [SUP]6 [/SUP]If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. [SUP]7 [/SUP]If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. [SUP]8 [/SUP]My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so [SUP][d][/SUP]prove to be My disciples. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. [SUP]10[/SUP]If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. [SUP]11 [/SUP]These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.

Dotann · May 29, 2013

I use my faith every single day! God is awesome! And its God who empowers me to do everything i do and say, and think!
This is called faith! For its faith that keeps me in the desire to motivate me to say bless you and then with my words and actions, pray for another brother or sister. This is carried out with love that the Father instills in me.

This is what it means, apart from me you can do nothing! I praise God very day for the things i know i cant do on my own. Yet i know, MY God lifts me up even when i don't have strength from pain or hurting from another series of back injections, yet MY God lets His light shine in me to overcome these things and helps me to get my mind off myself to love on others!!!
Praise His glorious name!!!

We all have a measure of faith and none can take credit for it, for none are worthy of His precious Redemption. Cept through faith, grace and mercy! And it all stems from Love! Praise God!

We cant work our way to heaven! There is no one good enough to do it, and you could work from the time you were born until eternity and even if you only sinned 1 tiny little fib in all that time, and did as many good deeds to help as many people all over the world, you could still never in an million eternity's pay your way into Heaven! For if you could, then we could have done away with Jesus and He would NEVER had to come here in the first place! It would all be for nothing!

[SUP]10 [/SUP]For the person who keeps all of the laws except one is as guilty as a person who has broken all of God’s laws. [SUP]11 [/SUP]For the same God who said, “You must not commit adultery,” also said, “You must not murder.”[SUP][a][/SUP] So if you murder someone but do not commit adultery, you have still broken the law.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]So whatever you say or whatever you do, remember that you will be judged by the law that sets you free.

Gods Word doesn't change nor does it rub itself out and he doesn't make mistakes either. All the Word completes itself and it worked hand in hand that is IF its not taken out of context.

He only came because out of love for it is absolutely 100% impossible for anyone to reach heaven without accepting Jesus as Lord over your life and admitting your a sinner! This means knowing your cant work your way there, and submitting over to Jesus full right our life to Him that He has control to trade all you are, for all that He is! That means, all His goodness, righteousness and purity and everything He is becomes ours, and he took all our filth, rags, sin and mire! Praise His glorious Name!!
Dont for the life of me know why he would ever do such a thing for someone like me, but i know that i know, that i KNOW He did!!!!! THANK YOU JESUS!

So happy that He did! For ever since that day, i have never been the same! That is why we want to be like Him and do what He did in works, not to work off our sins now, but all our of love as He did...

Another important fact is, i FOLLOW CHRIST ONLY!!! When ever a person comes who with a new concept or idea, it MUST follow ALL of Gods word and it MUST be guided by the Holy Spirits direction in me as i am taught too or it wont hold. There is only one to follow. We are told this, its OK to see teachers and leaders as mentors, but even they must always say, don't look at me and my words, always look to Christ! If they don't say that, be careful for even in the scriptures it says that as Paul says this, for this is how many people are turned away and divided into foolish ideas...

I live under freedom of grace and love,, but keep the law because of love, not because i have to, because i WANT TOO!

Jesus Christ is LORD and KING OF KINGS!

WomanLovesTX · May 29, 2013

So why does dispensationalism even exist?

Dispensationalism offers a deceptively convincing way to tickle ears in several ways.

The three ear tickling pillars of Dispensationalism are:
1) Church/Israel dichotomy
2) The Law is not for today
3) The pre-trib rapture

2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when men will NOT put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit THEIR OWN DESIRES, they will HEAP UP to them a GREAT number of TEACHERS to say what their itching ears WANT to hear.

Those who are weak in the faith have always wanted to abolish commandments of God and avoid God's judgment. This is nothing new in scripture. The House of Israel was divorced for such things. The three ear tickling pillars of dispensationalism is beautiful music to such ears, to such a degree that conflicting scripture is often eagerly ignored.

This doctrine is achieved by verse plucking out of Paul's letters and the rest of scripture and at the same time ignoring the surrounding context and the totality of scripture. Peter clearly warned us:
2 Peter 3:16
He (PAUL) writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are HARD TO UNDERSTAND, which IGNORANT and UNSTABLE people DISTORT, as they do the other scriptures, to their own destruction. Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be ON YOUR GUARD so that you may not be carried away by the ERROR OF LAWLESS MEN and fall from your secure position. (Distorting Paul's writings generates lawlessness!)

ChosenbyHim · May 30, 2013

1still_waters said:

1still waters, that is referring to this Dispensation. Paul was saying if any one preach another Gospel than that ye have received, let him be accursed. If you rightly divide the word of truth, then you know that the context is talking about the Church Age. In the Church Age, if you wanna get saved, then you need to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for your salvation. And once you do that, you are baptized into the Body of Christ, and you are sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise unto the Day of Redemption (See Eph. 1:13 and Eph. 4:30).

If any body preaches a Gospel of works or ANY Gospel that is different than that of the Gospel of 1 Corinthians 15:1-6 for THIS DISPENSATION (known as the Church Age) then that man is accursed. BUT if that man is teaching about a Gospel that will be in effect for the next Dispensation to come, then that man is NOT accursed because he is not preaching that Gospel for today, he is preaching that that Gospel is for another Dispensation. You have to rightly divide the word of truth.

14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. - Revelation 14:1-12 (King James Bible)

The Everlasting Gospel which that angel preached is a different Gospel than the one we preach today 1still waters, so let me ask you a question. Is that angel cursed? Or will that angel be cursed when he preaches that everlasting gospel to every nation, every kindred, and tongue and people in the time of Jacob's trouble?

If you study the Bible dispensationally, then you know that angel is not cursed because he is preaching the gospel that will be in effect for the time of Jacob's trouble.

And if a King James Bible believing preacher who teaches dispensational truth, preachers like Brother Bryan Denlinger, Brother Gregory A. Miller, Brother Richard Sowell, and others, when they are preaching on the Millennial Kingdom and they teach that Salvation in the Millennial Kingdom will be purely by works, they are right. Because that is what the Bible teaches. Brother Bryan Denlinger has a sermon on Sermonaudio titled: The Gospel of Salvation In The Tribulation.

In fact, I am going to share this sermon in this thread. That way you or anyone else can access it if you want to learn more about the Gospel that will be in effect for the time of Jacob's trouble.

[video=youtube;bmgR8swVepc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmgR8swVepc[/video]

And in this sermon, he shows how the Gospel will be different in the time of Jacob's trouble. And he expresses right at the beginning of his sermon that he is preaching the Gospel that will be in effect During The time of Jacob's trouble, and that he is not preaching it for today. The Gospel for today is 1 Corinthians 15:1-6. Today, we are saved by Grace through Faith. No works.

But in the time of Jacob's trouble, it will be faith AND works. See Revelation 14:12.

Any preacher that is dispensational and who rightly divides the word of truth, always makes it clear that they understand what the Gospel for today is. They understand that the Gospel of Salvation is by grace through faith only in the Church Age. But they also understand that the Gospel of Salvation will be a different Gospel in the Time of Jacob's trouble and there will be a different Gospel in the Millennial Kingdom.

That's not heresy. That is Sound Doctrine. It is Bible truth.

Also 1still Waters, you do realize that our Lord Jesus Christ and His twelve apostles preached a different gospel than that which Paul preached in 1 Corinthians 15:1-6, don't you?

The Lord Jesus and His twelve apostles were still under the Old Testament, and when they preached the Gospel, they were preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom. God dispenses salvation differently in different administrations and dispensations.

ChosenbyHim · May 30, 2013

SarahM777 said:

Chosen,

Did Jesus say there would be another way to be saved when He said this?

John 3

10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[e]14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,[f] 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”[g]
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

Did Jesus ever say there was another way to be saved except through Him or did Jesus discredit that notion?

Again Sarah, that is another good question.

Now let me answer your question with a question. What Gospel did our Lord Jesus Christ and His twelve apostles preach while they were on Earth?

The Gospel that the Lord Jesus and His twelve apostles preached in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke, is it the same Gospel that Paul preached in 1 Corinthians 15:1-6?

or was it a different Gospel which they preached?

SarahM777 · May 31, 2013

ChosenbyHim said:

It was and is the same Gospel. Jesus kept getting after the Pharisees because they did NOT BELIEVE what Moses,Abraham and the prophets testified about Him. Jesus said that Abraham was looking forward to the day that Jesus would come. In John chapter 3 Jesus gets on Nicodemus (A teacher of the law) about the fact he didn't get that one must be born again. Jesus points to Moses lifting up the serpent,and in the same way the Son of Man would be lifted up and would draw all men to Him. Jesus from right near the beginning of His three years kept pointing to the cross. Isaiah 53 talks about Jesus. David talks about Jesus. Where did the prophecies about Jesus come from? Wasn't it the old testament writers who were moved by the Holy Spirit that for told these things? Jesus was very clear on it.

Bookends · May 31, 2013

Peter, talking about the law of Circumcision concerning the gentiles says in Acts 15: 11, "But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they."

ChosenbyHim · Jun 15, 2013

SarahM777 said:

Well Jesus knew that He would make the ultimate sacrifice on the cross of Calvary. But His disciples did not know that. And they were not looking forward to the cross. In fact, Peter had said to Jesus, be it far from thee, Lord. This shall not be unto thee. (Matthew 16:22).

The Jewish Nation was expecting a conquering King.

And yes there are many prophecies in the Old Testament concerning Jesus. But what you have to understand Sarah is that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, they all were not looking forward to the Cross. The Cross or the Crucifixion method had not even been invented yet. It was Rome who had invented the Crucifixion method of execution.

Again, you have to discern between the different Dispensations in the Bible.

Let me ask you Sarah, how was the Old Testament Patriarch Abraham saved back in Genesis?

SarahM777 · Jun 15, 2013

ChosenbyHim said:

Well Jesus knew that He would make the ultimate sacrifice on the cross of Calvary. But His disciples did not know that. And they were not looking forward to the cross. In fact, Peter had said to Jesus, be it far from thee, Lord. This shall not be unto thee. (Matthew 16:22).

The Jewish Nation was expecting a conquering King.

And yes there are many prophecies in the Old Testament concerning Jesus. But what you have to understand Sarah is that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, they all were not looking forward to the Cross. The Cross or the Crucifixion method had not even been invented yet. It was Rome who had invented the Crucifixion method of execution.

Again, you have to discern between the different Dispensations in the Bible.

Let me ask you Sarah, how was the Old Testament Patriarch Abraham saved back in Genesis?

Abraham was saved by FAITH just as the New Testament believers are.

ChosenbyHim · Jun 16, 2013

SarahM777 said:

Correct Sarah. But what did he have faith in?

What did Abraham believe?

SarahM777 · Jun 16, 2013

Genesis 15

6 Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

ChosenbyHim · Jun 16, 2013

SarahM777 said:

15 After these things the word of the Lord came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
2 And Abram said, Lord God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
4 And, behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness. - Genesis 15:1-6 (King James Bible)

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. - Romans 4:3 (King James Bible)

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. - Galatians 3:6-9 (King James Bible)
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. - James 2:23 (King James Bible)

So as we can see from Comparing Scripture with Scripture, Abraham was saved and justified by believing what God said (See Genesis 15).

What needs to be noted though was that Abraham was not commanded or told to repent and be baptized, nor was he told to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. So while Abraham was indeed saved by grace through faith, and his works showing that he had the right kind of faith. Still, Abraham was not saved the same way that people living in the Church Age (A.D. 34- the Present) are saved.

Stephen63 · Jun 17, 2013

crossnote said:

I seem to remember reading that it existed between the 2nd & 3rd century. It's been a while, though.

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