Dispensationalism
- Thread starter Pamella
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I made no personal attacks. I simply said you are deceived because... of how you were misinterpreting that Scripture.
And now you're trying to find some way to snake around your original post idea that Jesus was teaching there it's OK to eat unclean meats, when He was actually teaching about a spiritual matter and not physical health of the body.
But if you don't care to fess up to that, fine, I still won't hold it against you.
And now you're trying to find some way to snake around your original post idea that Jesus was teaching there it's OK to eat unclean meats, when He was actually teaching about a spiritual matter and not physical health of the body.
But if you don't care to fess up to that, fine, I still won't hold it against you.
The subject Ricky and I were discussing was about the eating of unclean meats, not the traditions of the Pharisees.
Looks like you need an OT lesson on that too though...
God told Israel to do various washings, etc. Even the priests had certain washing duties. But the Pharisees CREATED AN ADDED TRADITION to that, saying you MUST wash before you eat. God didn't command that, the Pharisees made that one up themselves. That's why they tested our Lord Jesus by His disciples eating without washing their hands.
Looks like you need an OT lesson on that too though...
God told Israel to do various washings, etc. Even the priests had certain washing duties. But the Pharisees CREATED AN ADDED TRADITION to that, saying you MUST wash before you eat. God didn't command that, the Pharisees made that one up themselves. That's why they tested our Lord Jesus by His disciples eating without washing their hands.
All history has different times (dark ages, war times, times of the kings, good time and bad times) and that isn't just for spiritual history but for any nation or people. And there is nothing wrong with dividing those times into different sections to understand the history.
But to make a doctrine from this is a different thing.
you said.
"The Lord is dealing with people in different ways at different time periods throughout history."
Does God Change? Is God hard and harsh for 200 years than graceful for 300 years than change to being a king for the next 1000 years?
Are people save by works for a time than saved by grace for another time?
Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
By faith all are saved from Adam to the second coming. No change their.
Sure times and understanding and culture changes but God does not change.
You said..
"Because all of the bible is written FOR us and our learning but it was not all written TO us. This is the main reason people get screwed up in their theology."
Read 2 Tim 2 in context and try to do it without taking every word literally but spiritually.
2Ti 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
rightly dividing = to make a straight cut, that is, (figuratively) to dissect (expound) correctly (the divine message): - rightly divide.
I think the verse in 2 Tim... is telling us to rightly understand the truth and not to get taken away by false doctrines.
i'd Ask people to read it in context and with pray asking for the Spirit to teach you. Because if it is falsely understood it can lead to a doctrine like dispensationalism.
You said...
"I think covenant theology is wrong and dangerous and many of them believe that the church replaced Israel. That is impossible. God cannot lie and he made an everlasting covenant with Israel, he will fulfill it."
It is possible because God did fulfil his promises, and the church is build on the promises, Paul makes it plan in Roms 11.
Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
All the branches are in the same tree. gentiles and Jews, wild olive leaves and natural anyone can be grafted into the same tree. Same church.
read it all in context.
But to make a doctrine from this is a different thing.
you said.
"The Lord is dealing with people in different ways at different time periods throughout history."
Does God Change? Is God hard and harsh for 200 years than graceful for 300 years than change to being a king for the next 1000 years?
Are people save by works for a time than saved by grace for another time?
Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
By faith all are saved from Adam to the second coming. No change their.
Sure times and understanding and culture changes but God does not change.
You said..
"Because all of the bible is written FOR us and our learning but it was not all written TO us. This is the main reason people get screwed up in their theology."
Read 2 Tim 2 in context and try to do it without taking every word literally but spiritually.
2Ti 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
rightly dividing = to make a straight cut, that is, (figuratively) to dissect (expound) correctly (the divine message): - rightly divide.
I think the verse in 2 Tim... is telling us to rightly understand the truth and not to get taken away by false doctrines.
i'd Ask people to read it in context and with pray asking for the Spirit to teach you. Because if it is falsely understood it can lead to a doctrine like dispensationalism.
You said...
"I think covenant theology is wrong and dangerous and many of them believe that the church replaced Israel. That is impossible. God cannot lie and he made an everlasting covenant with Israel, he will fulfill it."
It is possible because God did fulfil his promises, and the church is build on the promises, Paul makes it plan in Roms 11.
Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
All the branches are in the same tree. gentiles and Jews, wild olive leaves and natural anyone can be grafted into the same tree. Same church.
read it all in context.
Yes, let's read it in context..
Romans 11:1-2 KJVS
[1] I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. [2] God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Romans 11:11-12 KJVS
[11] I say then, Have they stumbled that they should (permanently)fall? God forbid: but rather through their (temporary) fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. [12] Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
(there are two different words for 'fall' in the Greek, one is a temporary fall the other is permanent.)
Romans 11:25-26 KJVS
[25] For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. [26] And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
(again showing the temporary nature of God's rejection of Israel.)
Romans 11:1-2 KJVS
[1] I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. [2] God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Romans 11:11-12 KJVS
[11] I say then, Have they stumbled that they should (permanently)fall? God forbid: but rather through their (temporary) fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. [12] Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
(there are two different words for 'fall' in the Greek, one is a temporary fall the other is permanent.)
Romans 11:25-26 KJVS
[25] For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. [26] And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
(again showing the temporary nature of God's rejection of Israel.)
When it's direct Scripture, then it's not an interpretation. I find it very funny how some people refuse to recognize the meaning of commonly used words in Scripture when it doesn't align with the particular doctrine of men they are following. That's what those on a pre-trib rapture theory often do...
Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV
And now because I've been stating Truth simply from the Scriptures you label me a follower of Hitler???
That only goes to show how deceived and rebellious a nature you have against God's Word as written, and rightly deserve to be deceived into such false doctrines of men like Dispensationalism and the pre-trib rapture theory, both ideas that Darby developed and pushed in the 19th century.
Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV
And now because I've been stating Truth simply from the Scriptures you label me a follower of Hitler???
That only goes to show how deceived and rebellious a nature you have against God's Word as written, and rightly deserve to be deceived into such false doctrines of men like Dispensationalism and the pre-trib rapture theory, both ideas that Darby developed and pushed in the 19th century.
As far as I'm concerned, John Darby was a secret Illuminist. The Christian historian Ernst Sandeen did say that Darby had Illuminati members in his Church (recorded in Dave MacPhearson's The Incredible Cover-Up). If that's true it certainly fits the mentality and devilishness of the doctrines he had and pushed, and also helped Cyrus Scofield push upon many un-suspecting Christians in the Americas. And looking into Scofield's history reveals he was a thief, and a member of the elitists Club of New York where bankers and lawyers hung out. No doubt he used them to get his Scofield reference Bible published.
How about a Church made up of both believing Jews and Gentiles?
Ephesians 2:11-16 KJVS
[11] Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; [12] That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: [13] But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. [14] For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us ; [15] Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; [16] And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Ephesians 2:11-16 KJVS
[11] Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; [12] That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: [13] But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. [14] For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us ; [15] Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; [16] And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
That's right. The promises and covenants were to Israel and they did not lose them. The ones in unbelief are simply cut off, and others not of Israel are offered the same belief so they may come into those same promises and covenants to Israel. This is why Apostle Paul used the label "commonwealth of Israel" when preaching to Gentiles in Ephesians 2.