Disproving Limited Atonement in Three Passages

[TannarDarr]

ok i had to read a few posts to see a problem....unfortunately i didnt see that asking you if you sin anything
but a common impulsive normal question responding to your immature understanding of the scripture you were

heheheeh immature, always the names with the weakest arguments. never the exegesis to back it up.

No surprise you didn't see the issue, you are guilty of it here.

Rather than discuss the scripture, you want to make it about me.

It's juvenile.

If or if not I sin does not change what the scripture says. IT ONLY allows you to evade the question the point, and misdirect the conversation from the exegesis to personal judgement.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but your perception that I'm judging people is part of the issue, but you just approved of it, and just did it.

You are right and spoke truthfully you didn't see any issue, because you embrace the offense. Nothing personal, but that's just how it is.

Since when is it ok, and adult, to disregard the discussion on the table, and discuss the person in an attempt to discredit them.

Have you ever raised from the dead??? WHy do you believe Christ did then? It's the same question he shot out. Man, it's like a bee hive, who's the queen?

explaining...questions like that are "Not" offensive..they just save time......in the meantime id say "if" your getting resistance here it could be from
your character if you actually have any.

my character, WILL get me booted from here. But it will because I stand on principle, and not evasion, diversion, and rallying troops to support me.

There is NOTHING CHRISTIAN, or just plain ole RIGHT about dropping the discussion to attack the person. It's not like I lied, misled anyone, or any offense that was due to be called out. Out of no where, it was a personal attack. You come here and that's all you have.

YOu guys are calling me arrogant, and what the heck ever else you dream up under your sheets but you are the ones, claiming that YOUR offenses are just and my defense of them against me is the problem.

By the way are you a critic? of people? Wait i got it

i can vouch for the fruity flavored ones

Man, I believe you on the fruity part.

NOTES TO SELF

1) a Good Christian disregards scripture when they can personally attack the person you are discussing with/at.
2) It's ok for you to do, what you are saying the other shouldn't do.

I really have to learn this new lifestyle, I had it all wrong. : )

 

[zone]

Sister, I'm done. This is the blunt of it.

I made a statement. I didn't back it up, you were fine to question it. I tried to reason, but proof was required. I get it from a Jewish education program.

And you want to say that you know better than them. Granted I took the first one I found, but why bother fishing through them all, they will all say the same thing.

SO YOU deem yourself a bigger authority.

I can't argue with that.

I tried to convince a man he wasn't GOD once too, but it's hard to argue with God.

I learned my lesson then.

I bow to your original information that supersedes 4000 years of faith. Yo mama must be proud.

yes, yes...i see it. i see it coming.....

 

[7seven7]

Why did Tannar get banned?

 

[RickShafer]

I don't know how clearer it could be in these verses Rick. God is the savior of the WHOLE WORLD, especially you Rick, because you believe. Don't make it complicated.

You are plainly wrong.
Infact, you are so wrong that it is laughable.
- - Let me see.....you accuse me of being judgmental, yet you claim to be a 'spirit of fire'!?
You are the fourth angel, cloros.
Chloroform more like, because you put me to sleep. - (Because of your lack of understanding of the scriptures and the righteousness of God.)
Yet you make yourself higher to judge those made a little lower than the angels.
- You really need to study some theology before you spit and hiss like a viper of redemption.

 

[SpiritofFire]

You are plainly wrong.
Infact, you are so wrong that it is laughable.
- - Let me see.....you accuse me of being judgmental, yet you claim to be a 'spirit of fire'!?
You are the fourth angel, cloros.
Chloroform more like, because you put me to sleep. - (Because of your lack of understanding of the scriptures and the righteousness of God.)
Yet you make yourself higher to judge those made a little lower than the angels.
- You really need to study some theology before you spit and hiss like a viper of redemption.

I just thought it was an internet name I made up to be called by. What do they mean since you obviously have studied theology and all? "the saviour of ALL men, ESPECIALLY those that believe." My 11, 8, and 3 year olds understand the meaning of what 'all' mean.

 

[GreenNnice]

1 John 2:2


He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

He sure is. He IS the atoning sacrifice for the whole world. Don't want to argue with that, that's the Truth

1 Tim 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain
the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10 .

And two verses after that.....

if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we ... If we endure hardship,
we will reign with him. If we deny him, he will deny us
:

Sounds like a proof word from Revelation, 'endure.' Gotta. Gotta. Don't WANT to depart now, do you, chesterton
1 Tim 2:3,4
This is good, and pleases God our Savior,who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

God WANTS you to come to Him, chesterton He wants you, oooooooh, OHHHHHH, He wants you, but you gotta choose Him, bro , just gotta. Gotta. Gotta. Such a simple proof word, eh, not heard that one so much? Want to hear more ?

I'm green, don't mind me, those are just my endearing ways of getting a message across from me, and, I pray, from Him

 

[RickShafer]

I just thought it was an internet name I made up to be called by. What do they mean since you obviously have studied theology and all? "the saviour of ALL men, ESPECIALLY those that believe." My 11, 8, and 3 year olds understand the meaning of what 'all' mean.

I am glad your children know what 'all' means.
Your problem with language is that you don't see a signifier between 'all' and 'especially'.
Is 'all' all inclusive? If so how can there be a special circumstance; (as in especially).
This is a bad translation of the original text, and even a grade school student could see that 'all' cannot be added too; (as in 'especially' all)
So this is a case where the discerning bible student would do research to find out the intent of the original text.
If you research just a little bit you will see the adjective transposed as 'especially' is actually the qualifier for all those who would believe.
Takes a just a little study.
So 'all' those men are not the world, but those who were given the grace to believe.
- It pays to do actual research.
-- especially if the grammar makes no logical sense. - (That is a sure sign that the meaning has been lost)

Look at it logically. (Sorry to make you think)

Without faith it is impossible to please God. Yet you claim those that deny His Son are saved, yet slightly less than those who believe.
C'mon.......I don't even think you believe your own stance!

 

[GreenNnice]

I am glad your children know what 'all' means.
Your problem with language is that you don't see a signifier between 'all' and 'especially'.
Is 'all' all inclusive? If so how can there be a special circumstance; (as in especially).
This is a bad translation of the original text, and even a grade school student could see that 'all' cannot be added too; (as in 'especially' all)
So this is a case where the discerning bible student would do research to find out the intent of the original text.
If you research just a little bit you will see the adjective transposed as 'especially' is actually the qualifier for all those who would believe.
Takes a just a little study.
So 'all' those men are not the world, but those who were given the grace to believe.
- It pays to do actual research.
-- especially if the grammar makes no logical sense. - (That is a sure sign that the meaning has been lost)

Look at it logically. (Sorry to make you think)

Without faith it is impossible to please God. Yet you claim those that deny His Son are saved, yet slightly less than those who believe.
C'mon.......I don't even think you believe your own stance!

ALL are given the grace to believe, rickshafe, don't doubt that for one second

 

[RickShafer]

ALL are given the grace to believe, rickshafe, don't doubt that for one second

You leave it up to man then.
You are wrong.
Read Romans as well as other passages of the new testament.
- There is no 'island of righteousness' within the heart of mankind to choose God.
- - Only pride comes from "choosing" God.
All religions 'choose' their god.
Jesus plainly said, "you have not chosen me, but I have chosen you".

 

[1disciple]

Using 1 Tim. 4:10 to prove unlimited atonement?

Not only does this very verse teach limited atonement, but specifically delimits that atonement to the believer by the Greek word for 'specifically' -- μάλιστα

εἰς τοῦτο γὰρ καὶ κοπιῶμεν καὶ ὀνειδιζόμεθα, ὅτι ἠλπίκαμεν ἐπὶ θεῷ ζῶντι ὅς ἐστιν σωτὴρ πάντων ἀνθρώπων μάλιστα πιστῶν

For this we work and struggle, because we have hoped upon the God of Life, who is the Savior of all mankind--specifically believers. -- 1 Tim. 4:10

There could be no language more delimiting than that.

 

[RickShafer]

Sorry Green, I shouldn't have said you were wrong; in the sense that all humans are made in the image of God - and therefore have grace bestowed upon them and know wrong from right, (at least at an early age), is correct.
Please forgive my prosecutorial manner.
- You are right.

 

[LT]

if there is unlimited atonement, there is no hell. If all sin is atoned for, then all have been covered in the blood, and will be seen with the righteousness of Christ on the Last Day. How then would any NOT be saved. These verses are not in context. atonement IS limited to those who are saved, because those who are not saved are responsible for their sins.
You cannot believe that sinners will go to hell if you don't believe in limited atonement.

 

[RickShafer]

Me - Red.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. (this just states the power of the resurrection of Jesus Christ over the wages of sin which is death, - it has nothing to do with reconciling reprobates)

1 Tim 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.(Dealt with - see above posts)


1 Tim 2:3,4
This is good, and pleases God our Savior,who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. (How is this a statement of unlimited atonement?) - -
1. God told Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. - He changes not.
2. He has no pleasure in condemning the wicked.

 

[SpiritofFire]

I am glad your children know what 'all' means.
Your problem with language is that you don't see a signifier between 'all' and 'especially'.
Is 'all' all inclusive? If so how can there be a special circumstance; (as in especially).
This is a bad translation of the original text, and even a grade school student could see that 'all' cannot be added too; (as in 'especially' all)
So this is a case where the discerning bible student would do research to find out the intent of the original text.
If you research just a little bit you will see the adjective transposed as 'especially' is actually the qualifier for all those who would believe.
Takes a just a little study.
So 'all' those men are not the world, but those who were given the grace to believe.
- It pays to do actual research.
-- especially if the grammar makes no logical sense. - (That is a sure sign that the meaning has been lost)

Look at it logically. (Sorry to make you think)

Without faith it is impossible to please God. Yet you claim those that deny His Son are saved, yet slightly less than those who believe.
C'mon.......I don't even think you believe your own stance!

I prefer to keep it simple. Every man is measured out faith. You should know this verse, scholar. All people get $100 especially if you're a woman! Not hard. every one gets $100. The truth is that you all fight so hard against the will of God to have all men saved that you complicate the obvious. You cannot sell truth.

The bible says that man at his best state is altogether vanity! What does that mean to you?

 

[RickShafer]

I prefer to keep it simple. Every man is measured out faith. You should know this verse, scholar. All people get $100 especially if you're a woman! Not hard. every one gets $100. The truth is that you all fight so hard against the will of God to have all men saved that you complicate the obvious. You cannot sell truth.

The bible says that man at his best state is altogether vanity! What does that mean to you?

Angel!! - You're back!
How many computer interfaces have you gone through by now?
- It must be getting expensive, (especially for a communist such as yourself).


Boo-Friggity-Hoo!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

if there is unlimited atonement, there is no hell. If all sin is atoned for, then all have been covered in the blood, and will be seen with the righteousness of Christ on the Last Day. How then would any NOT be saved. These verses are not in context. atonement IS limited to those who are saved, because those who are not saved are responsible for their sins.
You cannot believe that sinners will go to hell if you don't believe in limited atonement.

I do not see how you would say this.

1. No one in the great white is judged for sin, they are judged for works, and found wanting (they could not do enough work to make up for their just condemnation)
2. Jesus said ALL manner of sin will be forgiven men. He also says people who are dead are dead because of unbelief. Jesus did not die for the sin of unbelief.

 

[Skinski7]

if there is unlimited atonement, there is no hell. If all sin is atoned for, then all have been covered in the blood, and will be seen with the righteousness of Christ on the Last Day. How then would any NOT be saved. These verses are not in context. atonement IS limited to those who are saved, because those who are not saved are responsible for their sins.
You cannot believe that sinners will go to hell if you don't believe in limited atonement.

The only reason you believe that is because you view the death of Christ as a substitution. The death of Christ was never viewed as a substitution until the 11th century when Anselm expounded that the reason Jesus died was to satisfy the justice of God to offset the forgiveness of sins (the premise of Finney's moral government view).

It wasn't until around the 16 century that the Reformers took Anselm's speculation and added the judicial penalty aspect to it and taught that Jesus literally "paid the sin debt due." Thus with this understanding the notion that Jesus only died for the elect was born due to double jeopardy being in effect.



It is very unfortunate that people put more trust in theologians and talking heads as opposed to reading plainly the scriptures for themselves.

Substitution theology can only be supported by isolating a few verses completely out of context. Yet this teaching tickles the ears because it gives people an assurance that they can still be in rebellion to God (have guile in their heart) and be reconciled at the same time.



Jesus simply did not die as anyone's substitute. Jesus died on behalf of sinners as an example as well as a propitiatory offering in order to enjoin those who believe to the New Covenant in which reconciliation to God and thus the forgiveness of sins may be found. The death of Christ is for the purpose to wash people clean from all iniquity and leave them in a pure state able to serve God with a clear conscience.

The death of Christ has nothing to do with cloaking ongoing iniquity yet most people believe it does. Therefore people defend ongoing sin in a Christian and decry any possibility of genuine purity of heart.

It is a tragedy of epic proportions.

 

[Shilo]

Limited Atonement you just have to make up in your mind who is doing the limiting.

You limit God's Atonement by saying that it is offered to everyone and there for limit God. If God offers it to all and all are not saved then it is limited by people.

If it is as Yeshua said You did not choose me but I chose you then it is a limited Atonement by God not man.

Just as he chose Noah, Abraham , Isaac, Jacob, Jacobs children, and then turned to the gentiles.

So it is God who puts the limit of Yeshua's atonment, but to who it is given there is no limit.

God picked Noah, Abraham, Isaac, the children of Jacob and then the jews if that does not show him setting a limit what does.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Limited Atonement you just have to make up in your mind who is doing the limiting.

You limit God's Atonement by saying that it is offered to everyone and there for limit God. If God offers it to all and all are not saved then it is limited by people.

If it is as Yeshua said You did not choose me but I chose you then it is a limited Atonement by God not man.

Just as he chose Noah, Abraham , Isaac, Jacob, Jacobs children, and then turned to the gentiles.

So it is God who puts the limit of Yeshua's atonment, but to who it is given there is no limit.

God picked Noah, Abraham, Isaac, the children of Jacob and then the jews if that does not show him setting a limit what does.

depends.

1. Why did he chose them?
2. Did he chose just them? Remember, Abraham did not even see his promised land because the sin of the people had not yet been complete (they still followed God)

Yes he chose certain people for certain things. But that does not mean God chose just them.

also. Unlimited atonement does not limit God. It serves his purpose. His purpose is that ALL who believe in him WILL be saved. All who do not will be lost. that was his plan from the beginning. Thus his will and his love is still proven.

He loved those who would ultimately reject him, Is that Gods fault? No! Can't deny his love for them though, he paid their price also.

 

[Elin]

The only reason you believe that is because you view the death of Christ as a substitution.

If Jesus didn't receive my punishment in my place, then I will have to pay the piper when I die.

BUT. . ."there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus!" (Ro 8:1).

You got some reckoning to do of yourself with the NT.

Substitution theology can only be supported by isolating a few verses completely out of context.

"Substitution theology" is the burden of the whole NT.

Jesus died on behalf of sinners as an example as well as a propitiatory offering in order to enjoin those who believe to the New Covenant in which reconciliation to God and thus the forgiveness of sins may be found. The death of Christ is for the purpose to wash people clean from all iniquity and leave them in a pure state able to serve God with a clear conscience.

So precisely how does the death of Jesus wash clean?

The death of Christ has nothing to do with cloaking ongoing iniquity yet most people believe it does.

Strawman. . .