Do people burn in hell forever?
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I believe in Gods love as well. God loved me so much that while I was alienated from Him through my sin He sent His dear Son to take my place in judgment.
1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
It's all in the bible for those who will receive and believe.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
It's all in the bible for those who will receive and believe.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
There, fixed it.
But what I described was the God of the bible. Thousands of verses to back that up. So if you wish to call the God of the bible a god of violence and retribution, go ahead. That is not on me. I just read what it says. And what it says is quite clear. I provided Scriptures, you still have not, and most assuredly will not because your position cannot deal with the Scriptures.
If you do not wish to interact with the examples I provided, this conversation is pointless and over. Drifting further and further into Romans 9:20 land
But what I described was the God of the bible. Thousands of verses to back that up. So if you wish to call the God of the bible a god of violence and retribution, go ahead. That is not on me. I just read what it says. And what it says is quite clear. I provided Scriptures, you still have not, and most assuredly will not because your position cannot deal with the Scriptures.
If you do not wish to interact with the examples I provided, this conversation is pointless and over. Drifting further and further into Romans 9:20 land
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Ha ha! Come on people. 16 posts and this issue is as clear as mud to me. 
I've always been in the "No" camp, believing as Tourist describes above in post #2 that we die a second death and cease to exist. But then I read Bogadile's post #11 that points to "Yes" being the correct answer. And I have a hard time refuting it. Especially considering the wording of Matthew 25:46.
But then I read JesusLives comment in post #12 and I again think "No" really is the answer.
I think I'm more confused and uncertain about this that I was when I got up this morning! Clearly I need help.
I've always been in the "No" camp, believing as Tourist describes above in post #2 that we die a second death and cease to exist. But then I read Bogadile's post #11 that points to "Yes" being the correct answer. And I have a hard time refuting it. Especially considering the wording of Matthew 25:46.
But then I read JesusLives comment in post #12 and I again think "No" really is the answer.
I think I'm more confused and uncertain about this that I was when I got up this morning! Clearly I need help.
I have already worked it out I have other questions that God is helping me with this is one of yours let God help you find the answer. Pray about it as the Bible says seek and ye will find, knock and the door will be open to you. He will help you get the answer you are looking for.
Just remember death is death not life.
We can either believe God or disbelieve Him. The Bible says that the second death is eternal separation from God in the Lake of Fire. That means eternal torment for all those who are in Hell. If this were not true, there would be no need for the Gospel or for the finished work of Christ.
Since Hell was created for the Devil and his angels, and is described as everlasting fire and eternal torment, what you claiming is that either (a) the Bible is full of lies or (b) you do not really believe that the Bible is the Word of God from Genesis to Revelation.
The problem is that no one who calls himself a Christian can pick and choose what to believe and what to discard in the Bible. If the Gospel is true, then the existence of eternal Hell is also true.
Since Hell was created for the Devil and his angels, and is described as everlasting fire and eternal torment, what you claiming is that either (a) the Bible is full of lies or (b) you do not really believe that the Bible is the Word of God from Genesis to Revelation.
The problem is that no one who calls himself a Christian can pick and choose what to believe and what to discard in the Bible. If the Gospel is true, then the existence of eternal Hell is also true.
Jude 1: 7 In like manner, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, who indulged in sexual immorality and pursued strange flesh, are on display as an example of those who sustain the punishment of eternal fire.
Now let me ask you a question. Is Sodom and Gomorrah still burning today with eternal fire? No they aren't the fuel for the fire is gone and so is the fire however, the punishment is eternal they are gone forever. The sin there that caused the judgement is gone with the people who died there. Sodom and Gomorrah will never be rebuilt or lived in again it is eternally gone.
Now let me ask you a question. Is Sodom and Gomorrah still burning today with eternal fire? No they aren't the fuel for the fire is gone and so is the fire however, the punishment is eternal they are gone forever. The sin there that caused the judgement is gone with the people who died there. Sodom and Gomorrah will never be rebuilt or lived in again it is eternally gone.
True that God *may* answer this question for me—IF it is His will to do so. I will pray. That's always a good place to start. But really, who knows whether He will answer it for little ole me, and if He does, what mode of communication He will use in His answer? It may be through insight into a passage of the bible. It may be through my minister. I may be through a post on this message board. (Really, that *could* happen. lol) It may even be through a person I've not met yet—or perhaps someone I know but have not talked to about God before.
This is a strong point as well. If there is no hell, there is no purpose for the Gospel. We always talk about being saved, getting saved, are you saved? Who is saved? How to be saved?
Saved from what? From non-existance? I am not afraid of that quite frankly. I would consider that amazing and a good thing, I would welcome it. Suffering for eternity? Ok you got my attention!
That is the whole idea of the Gospel. You are told God has created you, and everything else in this world. God has a set of rules, you have broken them, it is called sin, you are a sinner, the punishment for sin is the lake of fire. But the good news is (gospel) that God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son to die on the cross for our sins, He was buried and rose again on the third day.
What must I do to be saved they ask? Repent and believe the Gospel!
If you take away hell from that, the Gospel is injured. If someone told me that it is just mere annihilation and non-existance I would laugh them off and say bring it on, I am not worried. Let me go enjoy my life.
Saved from what? From non-existance? I am not afraid of that quite frankly. I would consider that amazing and a good thing, I would welcome it. Suffering for eternity? Ok you got my attention!
That is the whole idea of the Gospel. You are told God has created you, and everything else in this world. God has a set of rules, you have broken them, it is called sin, you are a sinner, the punishment for sin is the lake of fire. But the good news is (gospel) that God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son to die on the cross for our sins, He was buried and rose again on the third day.
What must I do to be saved they ask? Repent and believe the Gospel!
If you take away hell from that, the Gospel is injured. If someone told me that it is just mere annihilation and non-existance I would laugh them off and say bring it on, I am not worried. Let me go enjoy my life.
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There is no need to misunderstand the meaning of this verse.
When God judged Sodom and Gomorrah, their inhabitants died in a supernatural fiery judgment. But that was not the end of the matter. Their souls and spirits went to Sheol/Hades where they remained in torment in flames of fire, and still remain in torment until the Great White Throne Judgment.
At that point, there will be the Resurrection of Damnation (or the resurrection of the unjust), and following that the people of Sodom and Gomorrah (and others who are outside of Christ) will be cast into the Lake of Fire, which is eternal fire and eternal torment. So what Jude has done is simply summarized the totality of their judgment correctly, which is (as quoted above) the punishment of eternal fire, or as the KJB puts it "suffering the vengeance of eternal fire".
When God judged Sodom and Gomorrah, their inhabitants died in a supernatural fiery judgment. But that was not the end of the matter. Their souls and spirits went to Sheol/Hades where they remained in torment in flames of fire, and still remain in torment until the Great White Throne Judgment.
At that point, there will be the Resurrection of Damnation (or the resurrection of the unjust), and following that the people of Sodom and Gomorrah (and others who are outside of Christ) will be cast into the Lake of Fire, which is eternal fire and eternal torment. So what Jude has done is simply summarized the totality of their judgment correctly, which is (as quoted above) the punishment of eternal fire, or as the KJB puts it "suffering the vengeance of eternal fire".
Of course there is. Everlasting life.
Yes.
Anyone who will confess Jesus Christ as Lord and believe in their heart that God raised him from the dead.
See Rom 10:9; Eph 1:13.
Saved from what?[/quote]
Permanent death.
Yes.
Non-existence is an "amazing and good thing"? You have a very strange outlook.
Did you get saved because of fear of being tortured for eternity? Or because you want to live forever with the Lord Jesus Christ?
The whole idea of the gospel is that Jesus Christ died for our sins so that we could live forever with him in a perfect world.
That's true (Rom 10:9).
Adding the orthodox view of Hell injures the gospel and God's just and righteous nature. There is NO crime worthy of suffering and being tortured for ETERNITY.
"mere annihilation"? lol
I would hope you're enjoying life as a Christian.
So don't get saved and "enjoy your life" for 60-80 years and then die. And then when you're resurrected at the resurrection of the unjust, you will bow the knee before the Lord Jesus Christ, and weep and gnash your teeth because you'll come to understand that you -could- have had everlasting life in a perfect world. Instead you'll be tossed into the lake of fire and be burned up. But for you, I guess that would be "amazing and good".
Yes.
Anyone who will confess Jesus Christ as Lord and believe in their heart that God raised him from the dead.
See Rom 10:9; Eph 1:13.
Saved from what?[/quote]
Permanent death.
Yes.
Non-existence is an "amazing and good thing"? You have a very strange outlook.
Did you get saved because of fear of being tortured for eternity? Or because you want to live forever with the Lord Jesus Christ?
The whole idea of the gospel is that Jesus Christ died for our sins so that we could live forever with him in a perfect world.
That's true (Rom 10:9).
Adding the orthodox view of Hell injures the gospel and God's just and righteous nature. There is NO crime worthy of suffering and being tortured for ETERNITY.
"mere annihilation"? lol
I would hope you're enjoying life as a Christian.
So don't get saved and "enjoy your life" for 60-80 years and then die. And then when you're resurrected at the resurrection of the unjust, you will bow the knee before the Lord Jesus Christ, and weep and gnash your teeth because you'll come to understand that you -could- have had everlasting life in a perfect world. Instead you'll be tossed into the lake of fire and be burned up. But for you, I guess that would be "amazing and good".
I think Jim does a pretty good job of explaining God's Justice. Especially for those who feel it means God's way of "getting even" or "Payback" for sinning.
**************
Our understanding of biblical justice has been diminished by how the Greek and Hebrew words that were originally used have been translated. In Hebrew, there were at least three words to articulate the concept of justice as we understand it today — each with its own nuances and subtleties.
According to Baker’s Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology, the Hebrew words tsedeq and mishpat and the Greek dikaiosyne are all used to describe “justice” in the Bible. These words are interchangeable with the words for “righteousness.” In about half the cases in where “just” or “justice” are used in the King James Version and the American Standard Revised Version, the words have been changed to “right,” “righteous,” or “righteousness” in later versions.
The ideas of justice and righteousness are deeply connected in the Bible. Both are richly applied to many things, from fair weights and measures, to just legal proceedings, to good personal conduct, to honesty and truthfulness, to an individual’s right or just claim, to employers’ economically just behaviors, to judges’ fair decisions, to the governmental responsibilities of kings and rulers.
The clear meaning of “justice” is “what is right” or “what is normal” — the way things are supposed to be. The fairness of laws coupled with fair and equal treatment under the law are common biblical concerns. Throughout scripture, God is the defender and protector of the poor, the alien, the debtor, the widow, and the orphan.
Justice can also mean “deliverance,” “victory,” “vindication,” or “prosperity” — but for all, not just a few. Justice is part of God’s purpose in redemption.
One of the clearest and most holistic words for justice is the Hebrew shalom, which means both “justice” and “peace.” Shalom includes “wholeness,” or everything that makes for people’s well being, security, and, in particular, the restoration of relationships that have been broken. Justice, therefore, is about repairing broken relationships both with other people and to structures — of courts and punishments, money and economics, land and resources, and kings and rulers.
The deeply biblical idea of shalom is the reason justice always has to be “social.” We can begin to imagine how the reform of our criminal justice system could be based on “restorative justice” rather than mere retribution. Employer-employee relationships could be brought into the idea of shalom as well — fixing what has been unfair, unjust, or exploitative. Economic systems, structures, and interactions can be judged by how they serve or destroy good and healthy relationships. Even government can be evaluated by how it ignores problems, creates dependencies, or actually facilitates better relationships between citizens in a civil society.
But justice is also about restoring our broken relationship with God to what he intends for us, which includes our role in God’s purposes for all of his creatures and for the world that he has made.
The biblical words for justice all relate to the fairness, judgment, love, and healing of God. And it is clear that justice is also part of our worship of God. Listen to the prophet Amos:
I hate, I despise your religious festivals;
your assemblies are a stench to me.
Even though you bring me burnt offerings and grain offerings, I will not accept them.
Though you bring choice fellowship offerings, I will have no regard for them.
Away with the noise of your songs!
I will not listen to the music of your harps. But let justice roll on like a river,
righteousness like a never-failing stream! (Amos 5:21–24 NIV)
This is some of the strongest language in the Bible about worship and justice, and it clearly makes a connection between the two. God “takes no delight” (as some other translations say) in the “noisy” worship of his people if their worship is disconnected from justice — from making things right for those who are poor and oppressed. Exuberant worship can even distance us from the realities of an unjust world, creating a distance from the God of justice, who is passionate about the world he has made and about all of his children.
Even worse, we have seen how worship can serve as a cover-up for injustice, how we can act in our religious gatherings as if everything is all right — as in the Sunday services in apartheid South Africa or America’s segregated South — or North. And that is likely what the prophet means when he says that such false worship is a “stench” to God.
The only way worship can be made pleasing to God again is to “let justice roll on like a river, righteousness like a never-failing stream.” There is an interrelationship between justice and righteousness in God’s eyes. A worshiping community is only acceptable to God if its members are acting every day to make justice more possible in the world — which is itself an act of worship.
So justice, most simply, means putting things right again — fixing, repairing, and restoring broken relationships. And doing justice restores our relationship with God and makes our worship of God authentic.
That should be our justice lens for viewing any society — looking at what’s wrong and figuring out how to make it right. Justice is as basic as that. And acting for justice shows that we love and worship the God of the Bible, who is a God of justice.
Written by: Jim Wallace
**************
Our understanding of biblical justice has been diminished by how the Greek and Hebrew words that were originally used have been translated. In Hebrew, there were at least three words to articulate the concept of justice as we understand it today — each with its own nuances and subtleties.
According to Baker’s Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology, the Hebrew words tsedeq and mishpat and the Greek dikaiosyne are all used to describe “justice” in the Bible. These words are interchangeable with the words for “righteousness.” In about half the cases in where “just” or “justice” are used in the King James Version and the American Standard Revised Version, the words have been changed to “right,” “righteous,” or “righteousness” in later versions.
The ideas of justice and righteousness are deeply connected in the Bible. Both are richly applied to many things, from fair weights and measures, to just legal proceedings, to good personal conduct, to honesty and truthfulness, to an individual’s right or just claim, to employers’ economically just behaviors, to judges’ fair decisions, to the governmental responsibilities of kings and rulers.
The clear meaning of “justice” is “what is right” or “what is normal” — the way things are supposed to be. The fairness of laws coupled with fair and equal treatment under the law are common biblical concerns. Throughout scripture, God is the defender and protector of the poor, the alien, the debtor, the widow, and the orphan.
Justice can also mean “deliverance,” “victory,” “vindication,” or “prosperity” — but for all, not just a few. Justice is part of God’s purpose in redemption.
One of the clearest and most holistic words for justice is the Hebrew shalom, which means both “justice” and “peace.” Shalom includes “wholeness,” or everything that makes for people’s well being, security, and, in particular, the restoration of relationships that have been broken. Justice, therefore, is about repairing broken relationships both with other people and to structures — of courts and punishments, money and economics, land and resources, and kings and rulers.
The deeply biblical idea of shalom is the reason justice always has to be “social.” We can begin to imagine how the reform of our criminal justice system could be based on “restorative justice” rather than mere retribution. Employer-employee relationships could be brought into the idea of shalom as well — fixing what has been unfair, unjust, or exploitative. Economic systems, structures, and interactions can be judged by how they serve or destroy good and healthy relationships. Even government can be evaluated by how it ignores problems, creates dependencies, or actually facilitates better relationships between citizens in a civil society.
But justice is also about restoring our broken relationship with God to what he intends for us, which includes our role in God’s purposes for all of his creatures and for the world that he has made.
The biblical words for justice all relate to the fairness, judgment, love, and healing of God. And it is clear that justice is also part of our worship of God. Listen to the prophet Amos:
I hate, I despise your religious festivals;
your assemblies are a stench to me.
Even though you bring me burnt offerings and grain offerings, I will not accept them.
Though you bring choice fellowship offerings, I will have no regard for them.
Away with the noise of your songs!
I will not listen to the music of your harps. But let justice roll on like a river,
righteousness like a never-failing stream! (Amos 5:21–24 NIV)
This is some of the strongest language in the Bible about worship and justice, and it clearly makes a connection between the two. God “takes no delight” (as some other translations say) in the “noisy” worship of his people if their worship is disconnected from justice — from making things right for those who are poor and oppressed. Exuberant worship can even distance us from the realities of an unjust world, creating a distance from the God of justice, who is passionate about the world he has made and about all of his children.
Even worse, we have seen how worship can serve as a cover-up for injustice, how we can act in our religious gatherings as if everything is all right — as in the Sunday services in apartheid South Africa or America’s segregated South — or North. And that is likely what the prophet means when he says that such false worship is a “stench” to God.
The only way worship can be made pleasing to God again is to “let justice roll on like a river, righteousness like a never-failing stream.” There is an interrelationship between justice and righteousness in God’s eyes. A worshiping community is only acceptable to God if its members are acting every day to make justice more possible in the world — which is itself an act of worship.
So justice, most simply, means putting things right again — fixing, repairing, and restoring broken relationships. And doing justice restores our relationship with God and makes our worship of God authentic.
That should be our justice lens for viewing any society — looking at what’s wrong and figuring out how to make it right. Justice is as basic as that. And acting for justice shows that we love and worship the God of the Bible, who is a God of justice.
Written by: Jim Wallace
Yippee. Annihilation That is exactly what the atheist believes. So when atheists bring that up you can just say you agree with them.
And yes I consider it amazing and good, especially when contrasted with the traditional view of hell.
I am in the annihilation mode every time I go to sleep. I hear, feel, see, know nothing. Feels good. I like sleep.
That is exactly what the atheist believes. So when atheists bring that up you can just say you agree with them.And yes I consider it amazing and good, especially when contrasted with the traditional view of hell.
I am in the annihilation mode every time I go to sleep. I hear, feel, see, know nothing. Feels good. I like sleep.
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"A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."
The above is one example of unending punishment, which cannot be misinterpreted in any way. To be clear, the scripture above is talking about the punishment of those who worship the beast, his image and receive his mark. The reference to God's wrath being poured out full strength, means that there will be no mercy mixed in. The scripture is clear that the smoke of their torment will rise up forever and ever and that they will have no rest day or night. These words in the context would support that the one being in torment would have to be existing in order for the smoke of their torment to ascend up for ever and ever, as well has having no rest day or night. If one were not existing then they could not experience having no rest day or night. The word "anapausis" translated "rest" is defined as cessation, intermission with the word "ou" preceding it, which is defined as "not, no" as in "no intermission or no cessation" of torment.
Eternal Punishment:
"And these will go away into eternal punishment; but the righteous into eternal life.”
The word used to describe the state of both the righteous and the wicked is "aiónios" translated as "eternal," which can refer to an age, a cycle of time or unending which is dependent upon the context. Since eternal life for the righteous means unending joyful existence in the kingdom of God, then eternal punishment must carry the same meaning i.e. unending existence in punishment. Regarding the scripture above, whatever meaning you apply to the word "eternal" must be the same for both the righteous and the wicked. Therefore, if we apply eternal punishment as being temporary, then eternal life must also be temporary, since the same word is used for both. Since we know that the eternal life for those who are in Christ is unending existence in the joy of the Lord, then eternal punishment must also be unending existence in separation from the Lord. You can't have the word "eternal" mean temporary for the wicked and unending for the righteous.
Life and death are both states of eternal existence. Life being the joyful, on-going existence in the kingdom of God and death being on-going existence in separation from the Lord and in torment in the lake of fire.
Furthermore, the words apollumi, apoleia and olethros, which are often translated as "destroy" or "perish" are not defined as annihilation or extinction, but refer to the complete lose of well being, ruination.
God is love: God's grace and his mercy, his invitation of salvation, is to the living only. Once a person dies in their sins God's love, grace and mercy are not extended, their record is sealed. Jesus said that they will be held accountable for every idle word that they will have spoken (Matt.12:36). Regarding God's love scripture says, "today is the day of salvation." - 2 Cor.6:2
The above is one example of unending punishment, which cannot be misinterpreted in any way. To be clear, the scripture above is talking about the punishment of those who worship the beast, his image and receive his mark. The reference to God's wrath being poured out full strength, means that there will be no mercy mixed in. The scripture is clear that the smoke of their torment will rise up forever and ever and that they will have no rest day or night. These words in the context would support that the one being in torment would have to be existing in order for the smoke of their torment to ascend up for ever and ever, as well has having no rest day or night. If one were not existing then they could not experience having no rest day or night. The word "anapausis" translated "rest" is defined as cessation, intermission with the word "ou" preceding it, which is defined as "not, no" as in "no intermission or no cessation" of torment.
Eternal Punishment:
"And these will go away into eternal punishment; but the righteous into eternal life.”
The word used to describe the state of both the righteous and the wicked is "aiónios" translated as "eternal," which can refer to an age, a cycle of time or unending which is dependent upon the context. Since eternal life for the righteous means unending joyful existence in the kingdom of God, then eternal punishment must carry the same meaning i.e. unending existence in punishment. Regarding the scripture above, whatever meaning you apply to the word "eternal" must be the same for both the righteous and the wicked. Therefore, if we apply eternal punishment as being temporary, then eternal life must also be temporary, since the same word is used for both. Since we know that the eternal life for those who are in Christ is unending existence in the joy of the Lord, then eternal punishment must also be unending existence in separation from the Lord. You can't have the word "eternal" mean temporary for the wicked and unending for the righteous.
Life and death are both states of eternal existence. Life being the joyful, on-going existence in the kingdom of God and death being on-going existence in separation from the Lord and in torment in the lake of fire.
Furthermore, the words apollumi, apoleia and olethros, which are often translated as "destroy" or "perish" are not defined as annihilation or extinction, but refer to the complete lose of well being, ruination.
God is love: God's grace and his mercy, his invitation of salvation, is to the living only. Once a person dies in their sins God's love, grace and mercy are not extended, their record is sealed. Jesus said that they will be held accountable for every idle word that they will have spoken (Matt.12:36). Regarding God's love scripture says, "today is the day of salvation." - 2 Cor.6:2
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Only the cults turn to Ecclesiastes for their doctrine on the afterlife. So move forward a few hundred pages until you come to the words of Christ (who is God and knows all things).
And who would not want a death where there is no conscious existence? Just a "pure dreamless sleep"? If what you say is true, then we can make anything mean anything else.
Seriously, how can God's vengeance be experienced by evildoers if they are slumbering peacefully in death?
And who would not want a death where there is no conscious existence? Just a "pure dreamless sleep"? If what you say is true, then we can make anything mean anything else.
Seriously, how can God's vengeance be experienced by evildoers if they are slumbering peacefully in death?