Do we contend for the faith or contend for our doctrine?

[KennethC]

2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

1 Timothy 6:3
If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, [even] the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

 

[gb9]

keep going ken, those chapters do not end there . how about Ist Timothy 6- 4. kind of describes you and others huh?? other than the financial gain.

 

[elf3]

I would say we contend for our faith through the doctrine given us by God in His Word. Our faith in Christ should be Biblical sound. If my faith in Jesus is based on something not found in the Bible then I should question my faith. When people ask us why we have faith we should be able to show Biblical proof of why we believe what we believe. If our answer begins with something like this "this is the way I see it" then we need to remove the word "I" and replace it with "this is what God says in His Word".

Is my faith mine or was it given me by God? Do I have faith because of me or do I have faith because of what God tells me in His Word and what Jesus did for me? Who is in the forefront of my faith...me or Jesus?

 

[atwhatcost]

Well you will not find many to answer your questions because they do not want to face the fact that what another man has told them might not be correct by the word of God.

For instance I do not know how many people I have seen take and say salvation is ours right now and everything that follows is a result of that salvation. However there is only 4 scriptures in the whole NT that form of thinking can come from, but when applied and used with the other 25+ scriptures that show it is the ending result of our faith then the context in those other 4 can only be used as mental possession (assurance of receiving).

Yes peoples doctrines drive their faith instead of the faith in Jesus driving the doctrine.

It's really hard to look at yourself when you're this busy judging everyone else. Have you yet to notice that? You never check yourself out because you're always busy blaming others.

 

[KennethC]

keep going ken, those chapters do not end there . how about Ist Timothy 6- 4. kind of describes you and others huh?? other than the financial gain.

Only if you are speaking on this part in referring to me and others;

1 Timothy 6:12
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, where unto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

I am not greedy or a lover of money as I am content with what I have, and am fighting the good fight of the faith by trying to lead others in the truth by how the Holy Spirit has guided me. We are not to sit back and let false teaching slide as we are called to expose them when they are in the wrong.

This is just one of many teachings from the bible that shows we are to be content with what we have, and also states that those who think godliness is a means to get financial gain is to be ignored and not listened to.

There are also other scriptures that speak on how we are to keep with sound doctrine, and those that don't fall to perdition which means eternal death.

 

[atwhatcost]

My faith and doctrine are the same thing.
Is yours different?

Yes, quite possibly. My faith is in Christ. My doctrine is merely what I think that means. Over the years, I've had to correct the doctrine after he teaches me where I'm going wrong there. You've never done that?

 

[atwhatcost]

Mine is different from yours for sure, for you have shown me your doctrine, and you know very well what mine is. The doctrine I live by is that all of God's word applies for all Christians to date, right here and now, and forever. I think that is a true doctrine that is built on faith in God's word. All of it, not just some of it.

Well, you might want to correct that then. I'm pretty sure the buddies of Job who gave him advice is in God's word, but it's not something we should follow. lol

 

[atwhatcost]

That question does not make sense,because of course we contend for the faith,and not our doctrine,that is not God's doctrine,because it is false,and that question does not make sense,because if we hold a doctrine that is of ourself,and not God's doctrine,we think it is the truth anyway.Our doctrine would be false,if it is not God's doctrine,but we do not know it,for we think it is God's doctrine,unless we are intentionally going against the Bible.

Seriously? You've never had a doctrine that you found out later didn't fit into God's word? Maybe you should check out your doctrines more often.

 

[KennethC]

It's really hard to look at yourself when you're this busy judging everyone else. Have you yet to notice that? You never check yourself out because you're always busy blaming others.

There is no judging of anybody in that statement I made, and once again I ask this in all love, and that is please go and do a in depth study into what judging by biblical understanding means.

If you do that you will see by no means am I judging another for there is no names being said, no comment directed at a certain specific person.

It is a general statement which not judging, and also when it comes to pointing out another reproving or rebuking them is not judging either.

The only thing I can say is if you feel personally what I have said affects you, then the only thing I can say is that is the Holy Spirit convicting you and not my words.

I do not blame others for anything and I do face my own sins when I do wrong, so to say that I don't is a false accusation.

 

[just-me]

"earnestly contend for the faith" . . . let's look at this first "I . . write unto you of the common salvation"
What was the common salvation? common just means belonging to generality . . . so the common salvation was Jesus Christ crucified and raised from the dead . . . agreed so far?

We are to earnestly contend for the faith (the common salvation) that was once delivered unto the saints - so to ME (LOL) we are to contend . . . [to strive or to strive against; to struggle in opposition; to strive; to use earnest efforts to obtain, or to defend and preserve; to dispute earnestly; to strive in debate; to reprove sharply; to chide; to strive to convince and reclaim; to strive in opposition; to punish; to quarrel; to dispute fiercely; to wrangle] to defend and preserve the common salvation which is Jesus Christ crucified and raised from the dead.

So as we examine our faith in relation to our perceived doctrine we have been taught, do we contend for the faith, or are we earnestly contending for the doctrine? Is our doctrine dividing the word of God or does our doctrine “rightly divide” the word of truth which leads to “contending for the faith?”

I think that while we are contending for the faith of the common salvation . . . we get wrapped up in "doctrinal issues" that lead to all the other definitions of "contend" (not bolded) and in the process we forget - As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all, especially unto them who are of the household of faith (i.e. the common salvation). Gal. 6:10
Now concerning the definition YOU chose . . . pursue - to follow and try to catch or capture (someone or something); to try to get or do (something) over a period of time; to be involved in (an activity). Why would we want to try to catch or capture righteousness, faith, charity, peace . . . In Christ we have those things. But are we not to FOLLOW (stay with the simple meaning of the word) Christ and imitate God? . . . then those things will manifest in our christian walk so that others will see and want to follow (after) our example . . .

Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an example. Phil. 3:17
Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; Eph. 5:1
Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. 1 Cor. 11:1

I think sometimes we put too much effort in the looking up of words that we know and understand in the first place and then also some don't put any effort in understanding any words!!!!

For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. Galatians 5:5

For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? Romans 8:24

For we stretch not ourselves beyond our measure, as though we reached not unto you: for we are come as far as to you also in preaching the gospel of Christ:Not boasting of things without our measure, that is, of other men's labours; but having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly, 2 Corinthians 10:14-15

This denotes a pursuit of faith, for salvation is daily, as we continue to put off the "old man" and put on the new, dying daily and carrying our cross daily as we follow Jesus. We cannot capture faith, as you said. Faith is a gift. Contending for the faith is not chasing it trying to catch it. I look at faith as the gift that moves according to God's will for those that have faith. Faith is not stagnant. I see where you are coming from.

I hope this explain better what was in my thoughts when I wrote about "following faith"

Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 2 Timothy 2:22

follow (Greek) to pursue (literally or figuratively); by implication, ensue, follow (after), given to, (suffer) persecute(-ion), press forward.

 

[just-me]

Well, you might want to correct that then. I'm pretty sure the buddies of Job who gave him advice is in God's word, but it's not something we should follow. lol

In Job's situation with his (so called) friends, they were seeing evidence, but thought is was job's fault, yet didn't have any substantial evidence that it was. Presumptuous sin can be predominate when we think we have it right, but cannot back our thoughts up with the whole truth. Job's friends sounded real righteous but really didn't have a clue. Job's so called friends are sighted as something presumptuous not to follow. (Psalms 19:13) Their doctrine wasn't the truth even though they mentioned God often concerning His judgments.

Just like Israel's history. Just because sin is revealed in God's word, does this mean that we should follow the sin thinking it's God's word? Common sense tells a person when God says "thou shalt not" means sin is revealed and it's God's word that says to stay away from it. If He didn't say anything about it we would never realize that it is not God's will, but it is still Gods word.

 

[just-me]

Well, you might want to correct that then. I'm pretty sure the buddies of Job who gave him advice is in God's word, but it's not something we should follow. lol

Job's friends represent the epitome of false doctrine, based on fictitious evidence, and describing it as God' righteous judgment. They were putting their own doctrinal beliefs above Job's faith in God that they had witnessed of him before those recorded catastrophic instances. They said nothing to Job of any truth concerning his faithful past.

It's all God's word instructing us not to do as Job's supposed friends did because of what they believed.

 

[atwhatcost]

Kenneth, since you are so blinded by self, I truly believe you cannot see what you're doing, let me show you.

The underlined words are are where you start judging others. Everything after merely tells what your judgement is about them.

Well you will not find many to answer your questions because they do not want to face the fact that what another man has told them might not be correct by the word of God.

For instance I do not know how many people I have seen take and say salvation is ours right now and everything that follows is a result of that salvation. However there is only 4 scriptures in the whole NT that form of thinking can come from, but when applied and used with the other 25+ scriptures that show it is the ending result of our faith then the context in those other 4 can only be used as mental possession (assurance of receiving).

Yes peoples doctrines drive their faith instead of the faith in Jesus driving the doctrine.

There is no judging of anybody in that statement I made, and once again I ask this in all love, and that is please go and do a in depth study into what judging by biblical understanding means.

If you do that you will see by no means am I judging another for there is no names being said, no comment directed at a certain specific person.

It is a general statement which not judging, and also when it comes to pointing out another reproving or rebuking them is not judging either.

The only thing I can say is if you feel personally what I have said affects you, then the only thing I can say is that is the Holy Spirit convicting you and not my words.

I do not blame others for anything and I do face my own sins when I do wrong, so to say that I don't is a false accusation.

Granted,most of your second post was defending yourself -- the other half of what you do to judge everyone but you.

And, yes. What you're thinking right now is truly accurate. Yes, I am judging you. I'm not judging you for condemnation. Not my job. (Whew! Good thing. I'm lousy at it. lol) I am judging you as someone who always assumes everyone else is wrong and only he, and he alone, knows how to use scripture properly.Kind of annoying. Very inapprorpiate though. Quite a bit of a lie going on too.

How can I help you stop that? Any chance of that happening?

 

[atwhatcost]

In Job's situation with his (so called) friends, they were seeing evidence, but thought is was job's fault, yet didn't have any substantial evidence that it was. Presumptuous sin can be predominate when we think we have it right, but cannot back our thoughts up with the whole truth. Job's friends sounded real righteous but really didn't have a clue. Job's so called friends are sighted as something presumptuous not to follow. (Psalms 19:13) Their doctrine wasn't the truth even though they mentioned God often concerning His judgments.

Just like Israel's history. Just because sin is revealed in God's word, does this mean that we should follow the sin thinking it's God's word? Common sense tells a person when God says "thou shalt not" means sin is revealed and it's God's word that says to stay away from it. If He didn't say anything about it we would never realize that it is not God's will, but it is still Gods word.

First, I think they really were Jon's friends. I see people on here all the time going past God to make someone feel better. It is the human nature of our love. Not good, but that's who we are apart from God. We can love, just not well.

Second, agree with most you said. The only reason I bring it up is because a nonbeliever tried to quote Job's friends to trick believers, and, once I answered his riddle (which was basically that he knew what he was doing, so tricking Christians might work sometimes, but not always, so not so much a riddle lol), I also had to explain to him the distinct difference between some of the words in the Bible versus all the words in the Bible. More of a heads up, if you ever come across someone like that.

 

[atwhatcost]

Job's friends represent the epitome of false doctrine, based on fictitious evidence, and describing it as God' righteous judgment. They were putting their own doctrinal beliefs above Job's faith in God that they had witnessed of him before those recorded catastrophic instances. They said nothing to Job of any truth concerning his faithful past.

It's all God's word instructing us not to do as Job's supposed friends did because of what they believed.

True. Same thing I think is happening with several replies to your thread.

I just think people do that as a knee-jerk reaction to not knowing what God is up to sometimes, so they're defending their friend. In this case, their doctrines.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. Galatians 5:5

For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? Romans 8:24

For we stretch not ourselves beyond our measure, as though we reached not unto you: for we are come as far as to you also in preaching the gospel of Christ:Not boasting of things without our measure, that is, of other men's labours; but having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly, 2 Corinthians 10:14-15

This denotes a pursuit of faith, for salvation is daily, as we continue to put off the "old man" and put on the new, dying daily and carrying our cross daily as we follow Jesus. We cannot capture faith, as you said. Faith is a gift. Contending for the faith is not chasing it trying to catch it. I look at faith as the gift that moves according to God's will for those that have faith. Faith is not stagnant. I see where you are coming from.

I hope this explain better what was in my thoughts when I wrote about "following faith"

I see nothing in the above verses regarding "following faith" nor "pursuing faith".

I believe our "trust" in Christ can be increased through daily living and result in our following the life that is in and through Christ. I believe that we have all the "faith" we will have when we believe - God has dealt to every man the measure of faith and that measure of faith which God deals to every man when he believes is the "faith of Jesus Christ". [Romans 12:3, see also Romans 10:4; Romans 3:22, Gal. 2:16]

As I said before I think all of us contend for the faith - as in basic bottom line - Christ death and resurrection. As for doctrine - we have such deep convictions within ourselves as to what we believe; we contend for our perception of that doctrine - because we are so convicted in what we believe of course it is "right" in our eyes. Does it make us right or wrong? Who knows who is right or wrong for now we only know in part . . .

As usual (for me), I have trouble "following" you take on things or maybe it's the way you word things or it could be me! Maybe it would help if you would explain how you perceive the scripture that you post. Please take no offense, just-me, for I mean none . . . like I said - it's probably lies with me!

 

[just-me]

I see nothing in the above verses regarding "following faith" nor "pursuing faith".

I believe our "trust" in Christ can be increased through daily living and result in our following the life that is in and through Christ. I believe that we have all the "faith" we will have when we believe - God has dealt to every man the measure of faith and that measure of faith which God deals to every man when he believes is the "faith of Jesus Christ". [Romans 12:3, see also Romans 10:4; Romans 3:22, Gal. 2:16]

As I said before I think all of us contend for the faith - as in basic bottom line - Christ death and resurrection. As for doctrine - we have such deep convictions within ourselves as to what we believe; we contend for our perception of that doctrine - because we are so convicted in what we believe of course it is "right" in our eyes. Does it make us right or wrong? Who knows who is right or wrong for now we only know in part . . .

As usual (for me), I have trouble "following" you take on things or maybe it's the way you word things or it could be me! Maybe it would help if you would explain how you perceive the scripture that you post. Please take no offense, just-me, for I mean none . . . like I said - it's probably lies with me!

Maybe this will brings things back on track, for I'm really not following your train of thought either.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1

Hope is the future, not wishing but knowing with expectation because of the faith we have at this moment. This expectation is built on something that is substantial. That something is faith, and when we reach milestone after milestone in our life with Christ, our faith is increased. To be satisfied in such a way that it causes us to be secluded is not pursuing (following) this gift of faith God has so graciously given to us.

In other words if we receive a gift from someone else it not only is to be esteemed as good, but it shows the heart of the giver, and the giver intends for us to use it and enjoy it every day. The gift of faith is a benefit for us on a daily basis, and through daily experiences, and study, we understand how much more profound it really is as we live it. Henceforth the gift is enlarged by living it, and increasing in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The gift of faith is something we see with spiritual eyes instead of natural eyes for it is the substance that gives us hope for the future. Through sincere faith we are then conformed into the image of Christ. Our faith is increased as we grow in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. He is the Word of God, and by studying the word and increasing in His knowledge so is our faith increased, and that is the essence of pursuing i.e. following.

We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,That ye mightwalk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; If ye *continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Colossians 1:3-4, 10, and 23

*continue is to move forward in the faith. (follow or pursue)
Doctrines of men are stagnant. Faith is ongoing.

 

[mpaper345]

It makes sense if the question causes a person to think about who or what they are really serving. Are they serving themselves, or the truth, for Christ Jesus is the truth. Pursuing faith is following the "Who," which is God, through Christ Jesus, but if we pursue the "what" first, the "Who" takes 2nd place.

Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 2 Timothy 2:22

follow (Greek) to pursue (literally or figuratively); by implication, ensue, follow (after), given to, (suffer) persecute(-ion), press forward.

We are to pursue faith along with righteousness, love, and peace. There are many doctrines that are called Christian doctrines but in actuality have been compromised with man made doctrines.

Scratch that I said it does not make sense,for it does make sense,I was not trying to sound mean or arrogant,and I should of not posted it that way,because someone might take it wrong when I said,that question does not make sense,but I did not think about how it might come aross,and was not writing it in a mean manner.

I think I misinterpret what was written.

We would contend for the faith because the Bible says we contend for the faith,but if we have our doctrine that is man made,it does us no good if it is not biblical,although we would think it is God approved,or else we would not do it,like the Pharisees that had traditions like wash you hands before you eat,and other things that God did not require,but they thought it was God approved,or it seems like they would not do it,but Jesus said they did things that God did not require,and because of their tradition they made the word of God of none effect.

 

[just-me]

Scratch that I said it does not make sense,for it does make sense,I was not trying to sound mean or arrogant,and I should of not posted it that way,because someone might take it wrong when I said,that question does not make sense,but I did not think about how it might come aross,and was not writing it in a mean manner.

I think I misinterpret what was written.

We would contend for the faith because the Bible says we contend for the faith,but if we have our doctrine that is man made,it does us no good if it is not biblical,although we would think it is God approved,or else we would not do it,like the Pharisees that had traditions like wash you hands before you eat,and other things that God did not require,but they thought it was God approved,or it seems like they would not do it,but Jesus said they did things that God did not require,and because of their tradition they made the word of God of none effect.

Thank you for brining this up.
Since I have been contributing to the BDF, I have noticed heated arguments over doctrinal issues. It has lessened quite a bit, as of late, thank God Almighty. Yet the catalyst of disputes are doctrinal issues that trump faith. Common sense will prove that point if doctrines haven't tossed common sense into oblivion. In some cases it has. God's word says "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment." 1 Corinthians 1:10)

If we, in CC can discuss with humility, thereby propagating real edification, we all will notice divisive doctrines. The truth then can be humiliating to those of us who detect that our doctrine we so fervently defend was wrong.

I will list just a few doctrines that are discussed that cause some diversion here in CC
OSAS
Rapture
gay marriage
free will
works vs faith

And on it continues, stifling the growth and maturity that we should be adhering to. In the years that I have lived, I have heard the question asked frequently; "What is your faith?" In every case, a religious denomination will be the answer. The question should actually be; "What is the foundation of your trust?" In that respect, no one would define their denomination, but they might try to describe their doctrine. In that case they are putting their trust in doctrines rather than trusting in the gift of faith. Growing in the whole truth, not just some truth, enhances our trust in God, which is called faith. I can't understand why we so willingly ascribe to and being confined by doctrines that cause controversy, flat out refuse to be noble and investigate, grow, and accept the truth when it is confirmed.

These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Acts 17:11

The true doctrine is not ours to mess with, but faith in that truth has been given.

 

[LT]

Perception and perspective.

God views it as complete (speaking of salvation, and of all His Work) because He is infinite, and outside of time.
but because of our finite nature, we do not see the completion yet, even though it is complete.
Both Arminianism and Calvinism are correct, in this sense. Arminianism works for man's perspective, and Calvinism works from God's perspective. They are NOT mutually exclusive.

Doctrine and Faith are similar, when speaking of "contending",
but only when speaking of the FIRM doctrines.

Sorry, but neither Arminianism nor Calvinism are firm doctrines.
Contending for or against OSAS is NOT contending for the Faith.
It is just debating the method behind the Faith.
It has ZERO applications value, because our Calling is the exact same, regardless of which side you stand on.
If you think beating down Calvinists is contending for the Faith, you are distracted.
If you think defending OSAS is defending the Faith, you are distracted.

The Faith runs between these two factions, and incorporates both... providing that the individual has Faith in Christ, and not in Calvinism (OSAS) or Arminianism (Wesleyanism).

What is sad, is that it is obvious that some on this forum are blinded by pride of "doctrine" (which are mere theologies, not doctrines) and think they are saving souls by talking about OSAS (whether for or against it).