Do we contend for the faith or contend for our doctrine?
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There should be no argument. If all of us would contend for the faith as taught by Christ, and not get off on a pet doctrine like OSAS, babbling in tongues when there are no unbelievers present that it is for, the OT is obsolete, and many others, we would all be defending the same faith. We would be exhorting one another in love of the brethren. We would be manifesting the fruit of the Spirit as the Word of God directs us to. You get the idea, I'm sure.
It's not an argument it's a distinguishing.
There is only one true doctrine, and that is to trust and believe that everything God has ever spoken is still in effect to the very day. We live by His every word. Anything short of that is really not of faith. Just for edifications sake, keep tabs on the number of professing Christians that desire this or that part of scripture to be obsolete, and you can tell right off which doctrines are contending for themselves, and are not of faith. (Romans 3:31 and John 5:46-47)
There is only one true doctrine, and that is to trust and believe that everything God has ever spoken is still in effect to the very day. We live by His every word. Anything short of that is really not of faith. Just for edifications sake, keep tabs on the number of professing Christians that desire this or that part of scripture to be obsolete, and you can tell right off which doctrines are contending for themselves, and are not of faith. (Romans 3:31 and John 5:46-47)
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L
I don't believe in "freewill", but I do believe that what "will" I have must submit to Christ.
My perception feels like this is a "freewill" choice to submit to the Word, and make Christ my Lord,
but I also know that such is the fruit of the Spirit, and I can take no credit.
I will live like an Arminianists,
but know I am dependent upon God's good pleasure, like a Calvinist.
Is salvation the means,
or the ends?
The answer is not either/or. It's both/and.
My perception feels like this is a "freewill" choice to submit to the Word, and make Christ my Lord,
but I also know that such is the fruit of the Spirit, and I can take no credit.
I will live like an Arminianists,
but know I am dependent upon God's good pleasure, like a Calvinist.
Is salvation the means,
or the ends?
The answer is not either/or. It's both/and.
A
Three things to say:
1. Part of me is writing this just because you have some fear I'm going to say something that scares you as I scroll down the psots. lol
2. Whoa! Heavy duty, man, but good stuff!
2. Somewhat inaccurate that Calvinists are OSAS folks. I mean, we really are, but people don't ask the obvious question to get the full of the truth. We really do believe once saved, always saved. The hidden depths, (and not because we don't say it, but because people are usually yelling at us once we say those four words that makes them flame on us), is the obvious question: But are you saved? No one really knows until they get finished with the P part in TULIP. (Perseverance of the saints.) You just don't know if you persevere until you've finished persevering. (Minor correction, but it's one that puts us on board with the Wesleyans, if they would think about it.)
Oh! And Wesleyans! Thanks for that, since I always get mixed up on the spelling for that other word. (Which are the people from Armenia -- Arminians or Armenians? I just can't ever remember and most spell checks don't accept either word. lol)
1. Part of me is writing this just because you have some fear I'm going to say something that scares you as I scroll down the psots. lol
2. Whoa! Heavy duty, man, but good stuff!
2. Somewhat inaccurate that Calvinists are OSAS folks. I mean, we really are, but people don't ask the obvious question to get the full of the truth. We really do believe once saved, always saved. The hidden depths, (and not because we don't say it, but because people are usually yelling at us once we say those four words that makes them flame on us), is the obvious question: But are you saved? No one really knows until they get finished with the P part in TULIP. (Perseverance of the saints.) You just don't know if you persevere until you've finished persevering. (Minor correction, but it's one that puts us on board with the Wesleyans, if they would think about it.)
Oh! And Wesleyans! Thanks for that, since I always get mixed up on the spelling for that other word. (Which are the people from Armenia -- Arminians or Armenians? I just can't ever remember and most spell checks don't accept either word. lol)
THE faith of Christ is different to the trust we put in Christ in the beginning for being given the gift of eternal life.
Gal_2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
this is THE faith
Gal_3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
this is THE faith- of the churches in Galatia
Heb_13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
THE faith
Now the difference from being converted in the first place:
(Rom 10:8) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
(Rom 10:9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
(Rom 10:10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
No works involved
Joh_3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
No works involved
Luk_18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
No works involved
So there is a difference between THE faith.. and the faith/trust that gets someone converted
Gal_2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
this is THE faith
Gal_3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
this is THE faith- of the churches in Galatia
Heb_13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
THE faith
Now the difference from being converted in the first place:
(Rom 10:8) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
(Rom 10:9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
(Rom 10:10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
No works involved
Joh_3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
No works involved
Luk_18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
No works involved
So there is a difference between THE faith.. and the faith/trust that gets someone converted
L
I totally get what you're saying in point 2.2 (lol)
Perseverance is the evidence.
I won't go so far as to say it is the "cause" (of salvation),
but living like perseverance is causing good things spiritually is certainly what Jesus preached.
If we keep in mind that perseverance is evidence of the Spirit,
and that we are to actively seek this,
then we are rightly-minded, right?
The drawback most have about "Calvinism", is that they assume it preaches that we don't have to put in effort.
Putting in effort is the work of the Spirit, as far as I can tell,
and it FEELS like my work, but I know it's His.
To me, the divide between the two groups is due mostly to a misunderstandings of definitions,
and also due to a few wolves on each side, who take the sides too far, and into licence or legalism.
Perseverance is the evidence.
I won't go so far as to say it is the "cause" (of salvation),
but living like perseverance is causing good things spiritually is certainly what Jesus preached.
If we keep in mind that perseverance is evidence of the Spirit,
and that we are to actively seek this,
then we are rightly-minded, right?
The drawback most have about "Calvinism", is that they assume it preaches that we don't have to put in effort.
Putting in effort is the work of the Spirit, as far as I can tell,
and it FEELS like my work, but I know it's His.
To me, the divide between the two groups is due mostly to a misunderstandings of definitions,
and also due to a few wolves on each side, who take the sides too far, and into licence or legalism.
L
Some of these wolves act like perseverance is the enemy of faith.
Others act like we save ourselves.
And still others act like all will be saved, regardless of faith.
And then others seem to think that prosperity is the evidence of things faithed for. (Where the Truth says that faith is the assurance of things hoped for).
Others act like we save ourselves.
And still others act like all will be saved, regardless of faith.
And then others seem to think that prosperity is the evidence of things faithed for. (Where the Truth says that faith is the assurance of things hoped for).
Well I believe the big drawback to calvinism is teaching that a saved person WILL do good works!
That is not once saved always saved teaching.
Once saved always saved teaching is that a saved person MAY do good works if they rely on the Holy Spirit after being previously given eternal life to begin with!
Therefore there is nothing binding on their walk with Jesus to do with whether they have eternal life or not.
That is truly 'OSAS'.
I believe 'perseverance of the saints'.. should be 'preservation of the saved'
I don't see anywhere at all in the bible that teaches that a saved person WILL do good works and WILL persevere until the end.
'Enduring to the end' is THE faith. Not the trust in Jesus that got someone converted to begin with.
Eternal salvation is not.. I am turning from this sin and that sin.. therefore I must be saved.. which is in a hidden way what many people who follow calvinism believe. Paul Washer pretty much teaches this. It's Lordship salvation.
Not all calvinists will teach this.. but if you follow the TULIP to it's logical conclusions.. it is pretty much Lordship salvation.
Eternal salvation is what happened to the thief on the cross and the publican...
The thief -- trusted in Christ and was given a place in heaven.. no 'perseverance' required or 'put in' the person.
The publican--
Luk_18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
OSAS does not equal Calvinism!
OSAS does NOT require 'perseverance until the end'.
Of course there is going to be fruit from someone being given eternal life.. but that doesn't mean they will 'endure to the end'.
END OF RANT
That is not once saved always saved teaching.
Once saved always saved teaching is that a saved person MAY do good works if they rely on the Holy Spirit after being previously given eternal life to begin with!
Therefore there is nothing binding on their walk with Jesus to do with whether they have eternal life or not.
That is truly 'OSAS'.
I believe 'perseverance of the saints'.. should be 'preservation of the saved'
I don't see anywhere at all in the bible that teaches that a saved person WILL do good works and WILL persevere until the end.
'Enduring to the end' is THE faith. Not the trust in Jesus that got someone converted to begin with.
Eternal salvation is not.. I am turning from this sin and that sin.. therefore I must be saved.. which is in a hidden way what many people who follow calvinism believe. Paul Washer pretty much teaches this. It's Lordship salvation.
Not all calvinists will teach this.. but if you follow the TULIP to it's logical conclusions.. it is pretty much Lordship salvation.
Eternal salvation is what happened to the thief on the cross and the publican...
The thief -- trusted in Christ and was given a place in heaven.. no 'perseverance' required or 'put in' the person.
The publican--
Luk_18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
OSAS does not equal Calvinism!
OSAS does NOT require 'perseverance until the end'.
Of course there is going to be fruit from someone being given eternal life.. but that doesn't mean they will 'endure to the end'.
END OF RANT
L
Well I believe the big drawback to calvinism is teaching that a saved person WILL do good works!
That is not once saved always saved teaching.
Once saved always saved teaching is that a saved person MAY do good works if they rely on the Holy Spirit after being previously given eternal life to begin with!
Therefore there is nothing binding on their walk with Jesus to do with whether they have eternal life or not.
That is truly 'OSAS'.
I believe 'perseverance of the saints'.. should be 'preservation of the saved'
I don't see anywhere at all in the bible that teaches that a saved person WILL do good works and WILL persevere until the end.
'Enduring to the end' is THE faith. Not the trust in Jesus that got someone converted to begin with.
Eternal salvation is not.. I am turning from this sin and that sin.. therefore I must be saved.. which is in a hidden way what many people who follow calvinism believe. Paul Washer pretty much teaches this. It's Lordship salvation.
Not all calvinists will teach this.. but if you follow the TULIP to it's logical conclusions.. it is pretty much Lordship salvation.
Eternal salvation is what happened to the thief on the cross and the publican...
The thief -- trusted in Christ and was given a place in heaven.. no 'perseverance' required or 'put in' the person.
The publican--
Luk_18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
OSAS does not equal Calvinism!
OSAS does NOT require 'perseverance until the end'.
Of course there is going to be fruit from someone being given eternal life.. but that doesn't mean they will 'endure to the end'.
END OF RANT
That is not once saved always saved teaching.
Once saved always saved teaching is that a saved person MAY do good works if they rely on the Holy Spirit after being previously given eternal life to begin with!
Therefore there is nothing binding on their walk with Jesus to do with whether they have eternal life or not.
That is truly 'OSAS'.
I believe 'perseverance of the saints'.. should be 'preservation of the saved'
I don't see anywhere at all in the bible that teaches that a saved person WILL do good works and WILL persevere until the end.
'Enduring to the end' is THE faith. Not the trust in Jesus that got someone converted to begin with.
Eternal salvation is not.. I am turning from this sin and that sin.. therefore I must be saved.. which is in a hidden way what many people who follow calvinism believe. Paul Washer pretty much teaches this. It's Lordship salvation.
Not all calvinists will teach this.. but if you follow the TULIP to it's logical conclusions.. it is pretty much Lordship salvation.
Eternal salvation is what happened to the thief on the cross and the publican...
The thief -- trusted in Christ and was given a place in heaven.. no 'perseverance' required or 'put in' the person.
The publican--
Luk_18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
OSAS does not equal Calvinism!
OSAS does NOT require 'perseverance until the end'.
Of course there is going to be fruit from someone being given eternal life.. but that doesn't mean they will 'endure to the end'.
END OF RANT
Pursuing righteousness is part of the Calling we have received.
To think the Calling is optional, is to not recognise the voice.
Those who are His Sheep FOLLOW Him.
You are missing the point, brother.
It is not works unto salvation, as you have stated yourself, and this is true.
But it IS salvation UNTO good works.
They are still in the equation, but on the opposite side,
As Christ has come and fulfilled the requirement, we are given the power to overcome.
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How did the thief on the cross follow Jesus? He may have if he didn't die soon after being converted.. but it wasn't a guarantee.
But you don't follow Jesus 100 percent of the time.. no body does. If you go astray.. doesn't mean didn't become one of Jesus' sheep to begin with. Just mean you need discipline and rebuke from the shepherd to go back to the safe path.
But you don't follow Jesus 100 percent of the time.. no body does. If you go astray.. doesn't mean didn't become one of Jesus' sheep to begin with. Just mean you need discipline and rebuke from the shepherd to go back to the safe path.
L
He followed Him. No one can deny that his words were an action of Faith.
He did not sit quietly, thinking about how Jesus was not deserving of death,
but spoke aloud.
I agree that the predestined are secure, even when astray... but that security is not a safe haven for sin. No!
To the stray ones, it is fire, and conviction.
If a person is comfortably astray, are they even hearing the voice of the Shepherd?
No. There is NO assurance for the one who is astray. Only God knows. Not the individual. Don't risk such pride.
He did not sit quietly, thinking about how Jesus was not deserving of death,
but spoke aloud.
I agree that the predestined are secure, even when astray... but that security is not a safe haven for sin. No!
To the stray ones, it is fire, and conviction.
If a person is comfortably astray, are they even hearing the voice of the Shepherd?
No. There is NO assurance for the one who is astray. Only God knows. Not the individual. Don't risk such pride.