Do you believe there is going to be a pre-tribulation rapture?

[Thaddaeus]

I think you need to re-read 1st Thess 4, it clearly says that we are caught up after the resurrection of the just at the coming of Christ. Repeating the bible directly is unbiblical to you? Oh yeah because the bible doesn't line up with your view. So you do what you accuse others of doing, call biblical statements unbiblical, and unbiblical statement truth.

it does not clearly say that , rather that is how you clearly read it, actually it says nothing about Jesus coming back to the earth but it clearly says that we go up( raptured) to Him. and it clearly says nothing about His army that is with Him in Revelation when He does come back the second time and where is the Horse in I thes. 4:13-18. so be careful about pointing fingers haven't you heard when you point a finger at someone you have three pointing back at you


Re 19:11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.Re 19:12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.Re 19:13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.Re 19:14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.Re 19:15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

 

[Deep_MindQuest]

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." Mat 24:29-31

I don't about you all, but my bible clearly says the rapture comes after the tribulation and after Jesus is seen coming back. What does your's say?

There is no room for argument here, yet it exists. Why? Jesus said he will be seen before he sends his angel to collect the chosen ones for the millennium. Paul told us that happens in two stages, but we find in Revelation that there is another. Three will happen after Jesus is seen coming back, not before.

Unless you want to make up something that is not in the bible, why not believe what he said? Ever hear an evangelist teach about a false Rapture? I have, I hear them all the time, but because I take the bible for what it says, I don't believe them. How about you?

mathew 24 was already proven to not be a rapture verse so it does no good to say its a rapture verse after being proven its not one so there is no real argument here

 

[Deep_MindQuest]

THE RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH--A verse-by-verse look at 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 !

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice if the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first."

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17

13, "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not even as others which have no hope."

14, "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

15, "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep."

16, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice if the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first."

17, "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

The Rapture of the Church is the next major glorious event to take place in God's prophetic plan. In this book, we will look at this doctrine in depth. Today, there are many views on the subject. Many in the Church have taken a "let's wait and see" attitude because they have been confused by so many teachings.

In our approach to understand, we will examine:

A. The meaning of the word Rapture.

B. A verse-by-verse look at I Thessalonians 4:13-18.

C. Different views on the Rapture.

D. The difference between the Rapture and the Second coming of Christ

E. The results of the Rapture of the Church.

F. The promise and warning regarding the Rapture.

The meaning of the word Rapture

The word "Rapture" is borrowed from the Latin Vulgate Bible and appears in the English Bible as "caught up." "Caught up" in Greek is "harpazo", which means "to snatch or catch away...to seize, pluck up, pull, take by force." The verb "harpazo" means "to seize upon or take to oneself," "to seize upon with force." It is also used generally as meaning to "forcibly seize upon or take to oneself." The English word also means "to transport to a state of happiness" which comes from a Latin word "rapio." Rapio means "to seize quickly or suddenly or to snatch away."

Webster's Dictionary defines Rapture as: (1) the state of being carried away with joy, love, etc. (2) a carrying away or being carried away in body or spirit.

As described in the definition, the Rapture will be the physical taking out of the saints by Jesus. He will seize upon His Church with force. We will be caught up to the joys of our Lord.

A verse-by-verse look at 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

13"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

"...which are asleep..." The word "asleep" in Greek is "koimao." In the New Testament this always refers to the Body that is asleep and not to the soul. It means "to put to sleep, pass or reflex, to slumber, to decrease, be a fall, a fall on, sleep be dead."

The Apostle Paul was giving understanding to the Thessalonians about their dead loved ones. He wanted them to know that only their bodies were asleep or decease, but not their souls or spirits. So there was no need to be sorrowful. He went on to explain:

"...which have no hope..." In the latter part of this verse, Paul explained that the Church need not sorrow as the world does when it loses a loved one. The Church has a hope of seeing their dead loved ones again. This hope is locked in the resurrection of the Just. (Note John 5:28, 29; Acts 24:15; Daniel 12:2.)

14, "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

The condition of those who are Raptured will be on the basis they believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The scripture teaches that those who believe are saved. (Romans 10:8-11.)

For those who have died in Jesus, their spirits and souls will, at the time of the Rapture, be brought with Him. Their spirits and souls will be reunited with their physical resurrected bodies and at that time their bodies will be changed from corruptible to incorruptible bodies. (I Corinthians 15:50-57.)

Paul went on to explain:

15, "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep."

"...we say unto you by the Word of the Lord..." The message of the Rapture was given to Apostle Paul by the Word of the Lord. This doctrine was a mystery for the Church from God. (I Corinthians 15:51.)

J. Dwight Pentcost sums up the mystery like this: "The Church and Israel are two distinct groups with whom God has a divine plan. The Church is a mystery unrevealed in the Old Testament. This present mystery age intervenes within the program of God for Israel because of Israel's rejection of the Messiah at His first advent. This mystery program must be completed before God can resume His program with Israel and bring it to completion..."

"...we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord..." Here we have another condition given to those who are alive at the time of the Rapture. Those who remain are those who are still remaining in Christ and have kept their faith. These will be caught up to meet Jesus. Our Lord is coming back for a prepared people; that is, only for those who are ready (saved). Paul gave the warning in his letter to the Corinthians. (IICorinthians 6:14-18.)

17, "Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you."

At the time of the Rapture, if you are ready, Jesus will receive you unto Himself!

"...shall not prevent them which are asleep."

The word "prevent" in Greek means "to anticipate, to be before, or to precede."

Here the scripture gives reference to the fact that we which are alive shall not go up before those who have died in Christ before us, because the Word of God declares that "every man in his own order" after the death of Christ. (ICorinthians 15:23.)

23, "But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."

Thus the dead in Christ will be raised first, every man in his own order. Then shall those who are alive be caught up and changed. But we all, both the dead and alive, shall meet Christ in the clouds together.

16, "For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the Archangel, and the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first."

"For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven..." Our Lord Jesus Himself will come to receive us unto Himself. Here the scripture indicates that our Lord will physically come to get us. In the Gospel of John 14:1-3, our Lord stated in verse three:

3, "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself: that where I am, there ye may be also."

Our Lord promised that He would come and receive us unto Himself. Many today teach that Jesus will never physically come again. But the scriptures prove differently. Our Lord will come again and receive His Church unto Himself.

The phrase "coming of the Lord" in verse 15, explains the beginning of verse 16, Jesus' descent is called His coming. The coming is translated: "parousia" which means "presence or arrival." Our Lord will physically be here to meet us.

"...with a shout, with the voice of the Archangel..." The shout, the announcement of victory for the Church. The voice of the Archangel to proclaim that Christ is here, as He promised to take those who are ready for His gathering. The voice of shout will be Michael, the Archangel. Archangel in Greek means:

Archaggelos- A chief angel - Archangel

Arch- To be first (in political rank or power): reign (rule) over

Aggelos- To bring tidings, a messenger:esp. an "Angel"

The chief angel of Heaven will announce the coming of our Lord for the Church.

"...with the trump of God..." The trump of God will sound. This blast will sound the alarm of the Rapture. This sound will get the attention of the world, living and dead. The trump of God at the Rapture has been confused with the trump of the seven trumpet judgment of God in Revelation 8;2, 6-13, 9:1-21 and 11:15. As a result, many would use these verses to claim that the Church will be raptured at the middle of the Great Tribulation Period. The scriptures are clear that these are two different trumpets sounding. The blowing of the trumpet in IThessalonians 4:13-18 is a trump of victory and the trumpet of Revelation 8:13 are trumpets of woe and judgement in the Tribulation.

"...and the dead in Christ shall rise first..." After the Archangel sounds the trump, the dead in Christ will be raised. Note: The emphasis is on the dead in Christ. At the Rapture those who have died in Christ will be risen first. The scripture declares "Blessed are the dead." (Revelation 14:13.)

13, "And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, 'Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them."

"...Then we which are alive and remain..." As stated earlier, a condition was given for those who are alive at the point of Rapture. The saints of God that hath continued with Him will be caught up; those who have overcome the world and the devil. Many that are not saved and will not be raptured.

"...shall be caught up together with them in the clouds." Those that die in Jesus, and those that are alive and remain, shall be gathered together in the clouds. At this time we will be seized, caught up, taken by force to meet Jesus in the air.

"...And so shall we ever be with the Lord." Those that are raptured will forever be with the Lord. The door of Rapture will be the end of struggle for the righteous and they will be delivered from temptation and test from the devil.

"...Wherefore comfort one another with these words." The Doctrine of the Rapture is a message of comfort. The Apostle Paul commanded us to comfort one another with these words. The Rapture should be taught in every church to give the blessed hope and comfort of the soon return of Jesus for His Church.

Different views of the Rapture

There are many views being taught on the subject of the Rapture. The four different views addressed here are:

1. Post Tribulationist

2. Pre-wrath Tribulationist

3. Mid-Tribulationist

4. Pre-Tribulationist

Post Tribulationist view: Teaches that the Church will be raptured at the end of the Great Tribulation Period. They believe that at the Second Coming of Christ, the church will be caught up to meet Jesus and then simultaneously return with Christ.

Pre-wrath Tribulationist view: Teaches that the Church will be raptured at the middle of the last three and a half years of the Great Tribulation Period. This is the newest view on the scene.

Mid-Tribulationist view: Teaches that the Church will be raptured in the middle of the Great Tribulation Period.

Pre-Tribulationist view: Teaches that the Church will be raptured before the Tribulation Period. This view, I believe, stands the test of the scriptures for many reasons:

The Church has not been called to the wrath of God. The scriptures teach that the events of the Great Tribulation Period is the wrath of God. (Revelation 6:16, 17; 15:7, 8.) Christ hath delivered us from the wrath to come. (IThessalonians 1:10; Romans 5:9; John 3:36; Luke 21:36.) The Church will not go through the Great Tribulation Period.

The difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ

I believe the reason there are so many views on the Rapture is because many Bible students don't know the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ. These are two separate and distinct comings of our Lord. At the Rapture of the Church, Christ will not touch the earth, but will be met in the air by the saints. (IThess. 4:17.) At the Second Coming, He will touch the earth at His coming. (Zech. 14:4; Acts 1:11.) At the Rapture, He will come as a deliverer of the Church in joyous splendor. In the Second Coming, He will come back to deliver Israel physically and fight against the anti-christ and his fouls. (Rev. 19:11-21.)

Rapture-

I Thessalonians 4:17: "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Second Coming-

Zechariah 14:4: "And His feet shall stand in that day upon the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and the half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."

Acts 1:11: "Which also said, ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus which is taken up from you into Heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

The results of the Rapture of the Church

The Rapture of the Church will accomplish many things in the plan of God.

1. It will take the Church out of the world before the Great Tribulation Period begins. (IThessalonians 4:13-16; 1:10.)

2. The Rapture will cause the resurrection of the righteous dead and the catching up of the living saints to life immortal. (IThessalonians 4:15, 17; John 5:28, 29; Daniel 12:2; ICorinthians 15:50-57.)

3. The Rapture of the Church will mark the beginning of the Great Tribulation because after the Church is taken out, the anti-christ will come on the scene. (Revelation 6:1, 2.)

4. The Church will be taken so the Lord can finish His prophetic dealing with the nation of Israel. (Daniel 9:26,27.)

5. The message of the rapture produces comfort and gives a strong foundation of hope to the saints. (IThessalonians 4:18.)

The promise and warning regarding the Rapture

From our study, we know that the Lord has promised to come for the Church. Jesus said that He would receive us unto Himself, and where He is we would be with Him. (John 14:1-4.)

3, "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

Just as our Lord gave the promise, He also gave warnings regarding the Rapture. Those who will be raptured will be those who are saved and washed in the Blood of Christ. The Church should to be separate from the world. Those who are, Jesus will receive them. (IICorinthians 6:14-18.)

17, "Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing: and I will receive you."


Jesus is coming back to take our glorious Church. (Ephesians 5:26, 27.)

27, "That He might present it to Himself a glorious Church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such things; but that it should be holy and without blemish."

 

[watchmen]

THE RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH--A verse-by-verse look at 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 !

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice if the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first."

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17

13, "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not even as others which have no hope."

14, "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

15, "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep."

16, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice if the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first."

17, "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

These verse clearly show that the rapture is at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ. You quote scripture that proves post trib, yet you refuse to believe in it, curious. Why do you not simply accept the truth of scripture rather than believing in a lie?

 

[Deep_MindQuest]

nope its pretrib cause only a pretrib exist theres no such thing as a post trib rapture never was why deny the only truth there is!

 

[Deep_MindQuest]

God Hath Not Appointed Us to Wrath
In 1 Thessalonians 5:9, Paul assures us that God has not appointed His people to wrath. This wrath is plainly God's anger that will be poured out during the tribulation. Pre-trib believers interpret this as meaning that Christians will be removed from the earth. Post-trib believers tell a different story. They describe this as meaning that God will protect Christians during the tribulation and pour this wrath out on the unbelievers only. This idea runs against the statement made in Revelation 13:7, in which the Antichrist is given power to make war with the saints and to overcome them. A post-trib view would make God's promise of protection from wrath into a lie. In years past, it was possible to think of being protected from the guns and swords of that day. Today, when any major war would involve nuclear and chemical weapons, it's impossible to expect that same kind of protection. When Nagasaki, Japan was bombed during World War II, the bomb exploded over a Catholic church. Everyone who was in the center of the explosion died--both Christians and non-Christians. The only way to validly interpret God's promise of protection from wrath is by viewing 1 Thessalonians 5:9 as the bodily removal of the Church from this world.

 

[Deep_MindQuest]

notice in the above post tribers call God a lier!

 

[watchmen]

nope its pretrib cause only a pretrib exist theres no such thing as a post trib rapture never was why deny the only truth there is!

You are wrong and the bible proves you wrong. 1stt Thess 4 tells us that the rapture takes place AT THE COMING OF CHRIST. Jesus himself said that He would return after the Tribulation not before it.

 

[watchmen]

notice in the above post tribers call God a lier!

You are the one that calls God a liar. Jesus tells us He returns after the tribulation to gather us together, and you say no He is come before it.

 

[watchmen]

God Hath Not Appointed Us to Wrath
In 1 Thessalonians 5:9, Paul assures us that God has not appointed His people to wrath. This wrath is plainly God's anger that will be poured out during the tribulation. Pre-trib believers interpret this as meaning that Christians will be removed from the earth. Post-trib believers tell a different story. They describe this as meaning that God will protect Christians during the tribulation and pour this wrath out on the unbelievers only. This idea runs against the statement made in Revelation 13:7, in which the Antichrist is given power to make war with the saints and to overcome them. A post-trib view would make God's promise of protection from wrath into a lie. In years past, it was possible to think of being protected from the guns and swords of that day. Today, when any major war would involve nuclear and chemical weapons, it's impossible to expect that same kind of protection. When Nagasaki, Japan was bombed during World War II, the bomb exploded over a Catholic church. Everyone who was in the center of the explosion died--both Christians and non-Christians. The only way to validly interpret God's promise of protection from wrath is by viewing 1 Thessalonians 5:9 as the bodily removal of the Church from this world.

To get the pretrib rapture from this verse you must assume that the wrath is the tribulation, and our salvation is the rapture. Our Salvation is Jesus Christ, not the rapture, and we are saved from Hell, not the tribulation. This verse has been grossly misrepresented by the pretrib supporters.

 

[Deep_MindQuest]

Is the Church going to go through the Tribulation?
First of all what is the Tribulation? It is a seven year (Dan. 9:27) period of time of God¹s wrath and judgment upon the earth. Some believe that the Tribulation is only 3 1/2 years because the Wrath of God is not for the full 7 years. Others feel that they will go through the Tribulation because Christ will Rapture the Church at the end of the Tribulation. Well let¹s take a look at what the Bible has to say. First what is the Wrath of God?

The Wrath of God is known as the Day of the Lord.

"Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt: And they shall be afraid: PANGS AND SORROWS shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames. Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with WRATH and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it." Isaiah 13:6-9

So here we see that the Day of the Lord is a time of wrath and filled with pains (pangs) and sorrows. So is it for the entire Tribulation period? Yes it is. Listen to what our Lord Jesus says.

"And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows." Matthew 24:3-8

Note that these things are only the "beginning of sorrows" and as we have seen in Isaiah that the time of sorrows is the Day of the Lord. In Matthew 24 (above) we also see that this is the same order as the four horsemen of apocalypse which is the start of the Tribulation period (Day of the Lord). The white horse of the antichrist and the apostasy followed by the red horse of war and etc.

So what is seen here is that the Day of the Lord is the Tribulation and begins just as the antichrist comes to power. The Day of the Lord is the entire Tribulation period and is also called the time of Jacob's (Israel) Troubles. Now are we the Church going to go through the Tribulation? If you want to know, just answer the following questions.

Ro 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.

Are you holding the truth in unrighteousness?

Ro 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God.

Is your heart hardened?

Ro 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath.

Do you deny the truth and obey unrighteousness?

Ro 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Are you still under the law?

Ro 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Do you work evil?

If your answer to all the above questions is no, then you are not going to go through the tribulation. Why is because we are now,
" ...justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." Ro 5:9

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.

When we accept Jesus Christ as our Saviour, we are saved from the wrath of the Tribulation to come.

1Th 1:10 ...wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Keep Looking Up!

 

[Deep_MindQuest]

looks like you were wrong again i dont know how you do it but your wrong on every point you try to make, even if you were just guessing you would have at least a 50/50 chance of getting somthing right but you manage to be wrong 100% of the time amazeing!

 

[Deep_MindQuest]

Salvation – Rapture Inseparable
The Rapture is an issue incontrovertibly linked to salvation --something Jesus did on the cross, which puts us in God's family when we truly believe. That faith keeps us from the time of God's wrath --both in the coming tribulation, and in eternity. Wrath and judgment must fall upon rebellious mankind, because of sin. Jesus paid the price for that sin. He said on the cross "It is finished." Sin was forever paid for at that moment, for those who would accept his sacrifice --the only sacrifice that God will accept --the precious blood of His Blessed Son.
We are told we as Christians, while in the flesh, will have tribulations (troubles). Certainly Christians have had troubles down through the years. Persecutions --genocide, martyrdom, etc. These horrors are still happening in some places around the world. But, this was not, and is not, God's wrath and judgment, but was, and is, satanic rage against God's people. The tribulation will include satanic rage, but it will be within the horrific storm of God's wrath and judgment.
Christians (those who have been --as our critic says-- saved following the rapture-- will certainly suffer satanic rage, but not God's wrath. Many will be martyred, as in the times of the early persecutions --like Christians are being martyred in some nations today. But, we are told that we (Paul denotes the difference between Christians of the Church Age and those who aren't in God's family by the use of pronouns) we aren't appointed to wrath, but to salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. We are told by Paul to "comfort one another with these words"--not look to fear, but to comfort (read 1 Thess. 4:18, and 5:9-11). We will be kept out of "the time of testing (the apocalypse or tribulation), John was told by Jesus (Rev. 3:10).
Rapture Ready or Not…
Now, you might not agree, and that's fine. If you know Christ you are going instantly to Him anyway, when Jesus says "Come up hither," as He did to John in Revelation 4:1-2. You will have no other choice, if you are in God's family. But, please don't ever think --or claim--that there is only scattered verses here and there, or that there is no tremendously deep body of scriptural evidence and proofs beneath the truth of the pre-trib rapture.
Again, you can disagree, but, please don't accuse us of not knowing about the other views, and, don't just blindly accept what opponents falsely say when they lie, proclaiming that we just believe in something a 19th-century Englishman said, or that we follow some woman who dabbled in the occult. That isn't true, and you should look more deeply into the evidence upon which we base these understandings, than just to take the word of those who make such shallow and deceptive accusations.
Put this Scripture in a place you can memorize it –and make it your model truth for avoiding the pitfalls of intellectual and scriptural laziness: “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth” (2 Tim. 2:15).

 

[Deep_MindQuest]

You are the one that calls God a liar. Jesus tells us He returns after the tribulation to gather us together, and you say no He is come before it.

sorry you got this wrong you just dont know the diffrence in the rapture and second coming once you see the very obviousness of that you see post tribers call God a lier!

Question: "What is the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming?"
Answer: The Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ are often confused. Sometimes it is difficult to determine whether a Scripture is referring to the Rapture or the Second Coming. However, in studying end times Bible prophesy, it is very important to differentiate between the two.

The Rapture is when Jesus Christ returns to remove the church (all believers in Christ) from the earth. The Rapture is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54. Believers who have died will have their bodies resurrected, and along with believers who are still living will meet the Lord in the air. This will all occur in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye. The Second Coming is when Jesus returns to defeat the antichrist, destroy evil, and establish His Millennial Kingdom. The Second Coming is described in Revelation 19:11-16.

The important differences between the Rapture and Second Coming are as follows:

(1) At the Rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the Second Coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).

(2) The Second Coming occurs after the great and terrible Tribulation (Revelation chapters 6-19). The Rapture occurs before the Tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

(3) The Rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17; 5:9). The Second Coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).

(4) The Rapture will be “secret” and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The Second Coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).

(5) The Second Coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6-18). The Rapture is imminent, it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).

Why is it important to keep the Rapture and the Second Coming distinct?

(1) If the Rapture and the Second Coming are the same event, believers will have to go through the Tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

(2) If the Rapture and the Second Coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent…there are many things which must occur before He can return (Matthew 24:4-30).

(3) In describing the Tribulation period, Revelation chapters 6-19 nowhere mentions the church. During the Tribulation, God will again turn His primary attention on Israel (Romans 11:17-31).

The Rapture and Second Coming are similar but separate events. Both involve Jesus returning. Both are end times events. However, it is crucially important to recognize the differences. In summary, the Rapture is the return of Christ to the clouds to remove all believers from the earth before the time of God’s wrath. The Second Coming is the return of Christ to the earth to bring the Tribulation to an end and to defeat the antichrist and his evil world empire.

 

[watchmen]

Is the Church going to go through the Tribulation?

YES!!!!!!!!!

 

[watchmen]

sorry you got this wrong you just dont know the diffrence in the rapture and second coming

I know the difference between the 2nd coming and the rapture. The 2nd coming is when Christ returns, and the rapture is when the saints that survive the Tribulation are translated into their immortal bodies. The Bible tells us that the rapture happens at the 2nd coming. It is you that call God a liar.

 

[AnRev]

sorry you got this wrong you just dont know the diffrence in the rapture and second coming once you see the very obviousness of that you see post tribers call God a lier!

I disagree with you. you teach and repeat bad philosophy, even religious views. There is a difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming. But not in the way you have presented it.

The verses I quoted earlier does prove when the Rapture will take place, it is you who will not listen.

But for the record; the second coming is not instantainous. The Rapture(resurrections) will take place over a few years. Jesus is seen coming back before any resurrection takes place as I said before. Many theoligist teach otherwise and are dead wrong. I have heard all my life the Rapture can happen at any moment and my dad heard all of his life before me the same thing. It's not truth.

Jesus will be seen heading towards earth before ANY of the three resurrections take place. This is the time that the abomination of desolation should already be in place, and that hasn't happened either.

But before the abomination of desolation takes place the "image of the beast" has to be built and placed in the Holy Place. That hasn't happened either. When the image of the beast with seven heads is placed in the Holy Place there wil be a building of the beats with two horns that speaks as a dragon which will cause the image to speak. This is what brings on the mark of the beast.

The mark of the beast takes place after the two resurrection have happened, after Jesus is seen coming back in the clouds. Jesus is not yet to earth. Then after the mark of the beast period of 42 months begins the wrath of God. This event is not shown to be of any certain time length. An hour to God is as long as 41 plus years. Satan has been given an hour.

Those who were caught up may spend as much as 40-50 years in the clouds before returning to earth.

The third resurrection takes place when the wrath of God is over and those who were killed because of the mark of the beast will be resurrected back to life to live during the millennium with Jesus and all the others,(billions of people)

Nothing you said is scriptural at all. Do not forget that many deceivers have been in the world before you or I were born deceiving even before we came along. It sounds like you have bought into their side of things and are unknowingly helping them.

 

[watchmen]

nope its pretrib cause only a pretrib exist theres no such thing as a post trib rapture never was why deny the only truth there is!

2nd Timothy 3
12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.



The church will suffer persecution during the Tribulation, but verse 13 speaks of people as yourself, not only are you deceived, but you make it your mission to deceive others.

 

[Definition_Christ]

1 Thessalonians 5
1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they (who is THEY? THE UNSAVED).... shall not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.
5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober.
7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
11 Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.

The church will suffer persecution during the Tribulation, but verse 13 speaks of people as yourself, not only are you deceived, but you make it your mission to deceive others.

For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, (KEEP IN MIND WHAT THAT IS TALKING ABOUT)


Revelation 14
1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps.

(Ezekiel 1:24 When they went, I heard the noise of their wings, like the noise of many waters, like the voice of the Almighty, a tumult like the noise of an army; and when they stood still, they let down their wings.)

3 They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. (WHAT ABOUT THE CHURCH, AREN'T THEY ON THE EARTH?????)

4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Question for post tribbers what is the purpose of the 144,000 redeemed elect? Are they supposed to be witnesses for the already saved Church?... What is their purpose?

 

[watchmen]

2nd Timothy 3
12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.



The church will suffer persecution during the Tribulation, but verse 13 speaks of people as yourself, not only are you deceived, but you make it your mission to deceive others.

1 Thessalonians 5
1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they (who is THEY? THE UNSAVED).... shall not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.
5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober.
7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
11 Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.

For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, (KEEP IN MIND WHAT THAT IS TALKING ABOUT)

Yes we really should know what this scripture is talking about. It is not talking about the wrath of man nor the wrath of Satan, christians have been suffering the wrath of man and of Satan since its conception. The wrath that we will not suffer is the wrath of God which is poured out by Jesus at His post trib 2nd coming of which we will not take part in.

I will now show through the words of John the Baptist what the wrath to come spoken of in 1st Thessalonians 1:10, and 5:9 really is.
Matthew 3:7-12
7 But when he ( John the Baptist) saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, we have Abraham as our father: for I say unto you that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree that brings forth not good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he will baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.
12 Whose fan is in his hand, he shall throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into his garner, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
There is only three times in the New Testament that the phrase ''wrath to come'' is mentioned. Once in 1st Thessalonians 1:10, once here in Matthew 3:7 and in Luke 3:7 which is telling the same story about John the Baptist warning the masses of the wrath that is to come. So what is the ''wrath to come'' that he was warning them from? It is the purging of the floor mentioned in verse 12. It is the baptism of fire when the wicked will be overwhelmed by fire at the return of Jesus, it is the burning of the chaff which will occur when Jesus returns at the post trib second coming. The wrath to come that Jesus has delivered us from by his death and resurrection, is the destruction of the wicked by fire at the second coming of Christ, and as 1st Thess 5:9 says we will not suffer this destruction but will be removed that very day.

Luke 17:26-30
26 And as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, and they were given into marriage, until Noah entered into the ark then the flood came and destroyed them all.
The very day Noah entered the ark the flood came and destroyed them all, once again it was not a seven year prolonged period of destruction but it was immediate, the very day the righteous were removed.
28 Likewise also as it was in the day of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But THE SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone down from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day the Son of man shall be revealed.
It very clear the SAME DAY Noah went on the ark the flood came and destroyed them all. The SAME DAY Lot was taken, out of Sodom fire and brimstone rain from heaven and destroyed them all. The text says this is exactly how it will be when Jesus returns. The very SAME DAY Jesus returns at His post trib second coming is the very SAME DAY we will be taken out or '' raptured '' and it is the very SAME DAY He will destroy the wicked


In conclusion the truth of 1st thess 5:9 does not mean that we will be ''raptured'' before the tribulation but right before the wrath falls at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ.