Do you believe there is going to be a pre-tribulation rapture?

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Oct 5, 2009
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#81
daniels 70th week will be played out and finished regardless if you blindly say it wont or not its also called the day of jacobs trouble and jacob was renamed israel these things coincide with the start of the day of the lord only it last longer and isnt a single day anymore then the 70th week isnt a single week its 7 years not 7 days the day of the lords not 1 day either, all these things are yet to come shadows of them in past arent all there is to it there future events. church has no part in the 70 weeks we werent here in 1-69 and wont be here in the 70th because were raptured before it!
 
Apr 23, 2009
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#82
mathew 24 isnt ment for the Church thats a huge flaw in thinking and why so many are confused you cant just confuse church age saints with tribulation saints you cant blindly mix ot with nt cant mix verses not ment for us with verses ment for us you have to rightly devide the Word
So what else sghould we throw out because it does not fit our agaenda, What part of the Bible is for us, if any at all. The idea that we should throw out certain passages because it doesn't line up with our beliefs or agenda comes straight from Hell.
 
Apr 23, 2009
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#83
daniels 70th week will be played out and finished regardless if you blindly say it wont or not its also called the day of jacobs trouble and jacob was renamed israel these things coincide with the start of the day of the lord only it last longer and isnt a single day anymore then the 70th week isnt a single week its 7 years not 7 days the day of the lords not 1 day either, all these things are yet to come shadows of them in past arent all there is to it there future events. church has no part in the 70 weeks we werent here in 1-69 and wont be here in the 70th because were raptured before it!
You need to undo do what indoctrination has taught you, and start fresh studying your Bible with the idea of learning the truth straight from god and not from man.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#84
The bible language is very simple, and plain and simple reading says that elect, saints, tribulation or otherwise, are all the same sort of person - a believer, a Christian.

The only reason you divide saints into two types, is because you have to, to support the false pre-trib doctrine. There's no indication in scripture otherewise that we can do that.

Re: the elect's sake. It's not just the Jews.

I'll quote your favorite theologian John Gill on this, which as you can see is plainly post-trib in nature and all -inclusive (the elect according to the gospel aka Christians , gathered, on the earth, prior to Christ's return)

and they shall gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other; that is, by the ministration of the Gospel; the Spirit of God accompanying it with his power, and grace, the ministers of the word should gather out of the world unto Christ, and to his churches, such persons as God had, before the foundation of the world, chosen in Christ, unto salvation, through sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth; wherever they are under the whole heavens, from one end to another; or in any part of the earth, though at the greatest distance; for in Mar_13:27 it is said, "from the uttermost part of the earth, to the uttermost part of the heaven". The Jews (h) say, that "in the after redemption (i.e. by the Messiah) all Israel shall be gathered together by the sound of a trumpet, from the four parts of the world.


The rapture is not presented in Matt 24. Being taken away is probably to be taken away to their death by the Roman army:

Again I'll quote John Gill:

the one shall be taken; not by the preaching of the Gospel, into the kingdom of God, or Gospel dispensation; though such a distinction God makes, by the ministry of the word, accompanied by his Spirit and power; nor by angels, to meet Christ in the air, and to be introduced into his kingdom and glory; but by the eagles, the Roman army, and either killed or carried captive by them:


You do realise that Matt 24 is largely talking about the destruction of Jerusalem (and the temple) by the invading Romans in about 70 AD I hope.
 
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Apr 23, 2009
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#85
The bible language is very simple, and plain and simple reading says that elect, saints, tribulation or otherwise, are all the same sort of person - a believer, a Christian.

The only reason you divide saints into two types, is because you have to, to support the false pre-trib doctrine. There's no indication in scripture otherewise that we can do that.

Re: the elect's sake. It's not just the Jews.
Amen brother Mahogony :)
 
Oct 5, 2009
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#86
The Church was not in the first prophetic 69 weeks of years spoken of by Daniel and cannot be in the 70th week (Daniel 9:24-27)
These 70 weeks equal 490 years of, what was then, future history for Israel. This 70th week, which is still future, is for Israel and the Church is not there.


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The Time of Jacob's Trouble // Daniel's 70th Week
"Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it." Jeremiah 30:7

In a number of places, the Bible refers to the Tribulation as a time of trouble for the Jews. The phrase "Jacob's Trouble" pertains to the descendants of Jacob. In the above verse it says that this time of trouble will come just before the Lord returns to save His people.

The Tribulation is the 70th week of a prophecy given to the prophet DANIEL!

70 weeks = The "week/weeks" mentioned in this prophecy are "weeks of years"
These are Sabbatical years ... The Sabbath for the land was ordained in:
Leviticus 25:1-22, 26:33-35 ... Deuteronomy 15 ...

It was the failure to keep the Sabbath of the land that was the basis
of the 70 years of Captivity.

Seventy Sevens - as we see in Daniel's prophecy: Daniel 9:24-27 imply these same weeks of years. (Another example of this appears in; Genesis 29:27 et al.)

In this infamous passage in Daniel 9:24-27 we see:
70 Weeks - Were decreed for his people ... (Daniel's people = Jewish people)
...and for the Holy City (Jerusalem)
...to finish transgression
...to make an end to sin
...to make atonement for iniquity
...to bring in everlasting righteousness
...to seal up vision and prophecy
...and to anoint the most holy place!



The Scripture's never say that the Tribulation is meant to be a time of testing for Christians. However some post-tribers try to claim they are the ones being tested during the Tribulation.

The Church was NOT here for Daniel's first 69 weeks ...
The focus of the entire prophecy was Israel. Daniel 9:24
The Church is the mysterious INTERVAL between the 69th and 70th week. Daniel 9:26

Another example of such an interval: Luke 4:18-20
Jesus went into the synagogue on the sabbath day and stood up to read ...
He reads Isaiah 61:1 ... And he closed the book and sat down.
Then he declares to His listeners; "this day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears."

However ... if you take a careful look at Isaiah 61:1, you will find that Jesus only read the first part of the verse! He STOPPED at the comma ... He was at that time fulfilling the first half of Isaiah's prophecy - (That comma has lasted close to 2000 years so far!) He is yet to fulfill the rest of it. This is the same thing we find with Daniel's 70 week prophecy.

Here are more implications of an interval or temporary interruption in God's plan for Israel.
Isaiah 54:7 ...Hosea 3:4-5 ... Acts 15:13-18... Micah 5:3 etc.

This interval has a terminus on it - Romans 11:25

The Tribulation - the Last Seven Year Period - will be the final fulfillment of an Ancient prophecy to Daniel. It will also be God's time of vengeance and wrath upon the wicked.


Many Gentiles - given their final chance to accept the Lord and repent - will come to Jesus during this time of trouble as well ... These will be the Tribulation Saints. Revelation 7:14
 
Oct 5, 2009
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#87
Matthew 24
NOT for the Church

Matthew 24 has nothing to do with the Gentiles or the body of Christ (the Church) It is for Israel. It is a warning to all the Jews living in the last days.

Who is Jesus talking to in Matthew 24....

1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him...2 And Jesus said unto them.

Here we see that He is talking to His disciples. What did they want to know?

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

These disciples had NO knowledge of the the Church or the Bride of Christ. Because of this simple fact, we know that they were not asking about the Rapture, they were asking about the Jewish Second coming of the Messiah. They were not asking about Jesus coming for His church.

"...what shall be the sign of thy coming?"

The disciples want to know about the Second Coming.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

This is not the gospel of Jesus Christ. This is the gospel of the coming Jewish Kingdom on earth and the coming of Messiah.

Is this Kingdom gospel going to be preached to the Jews by Gentiles? No it is not. The Church at this point has been Raptured and is long gone. There is no indication that the Gentiles will preach the coming Kingdom to Israel. Born again believers are LONG GONE. So who does the preaching?

Revelation 7:2-4 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Some manipulators of God's Word would say that this also applies to the the Gentiles because we are all spiritual Jews. Well if you read on further in the chapter, you will see a list of the "physical" (not spiritual) tribes that they will come from. Now back to Matthew.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place,(whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Clearly this is a warning to Jewish Israel. It is not a warning to the Gentile Nations. It is not a warning to New York, California or such. It is a warning to the Jewish people in Israel.

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

We as the Church certainly do not observe the Jewish Sabbath!

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

This is known as a time of Jacob's (Israel) trouble.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Who are the elect?

Isaiah 45:3 And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

Back to Matthew.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Here we see that there will be many false Messiahs coming to fool Israel and to lure her away from the real Messiah.

25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Notice here the term Son of Man is used. This is a term that Jesus uses speaking to the Israel. For us Jesus is the Son of God. Why is because we know that He is God in the flesh.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Again we see the Jewish term Son of Man used.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The term used here is the sound of a trumpet meaning that there is nothing special about this trumpet. There is no indication at all that this is THE (singular) trumpet of God as seen in 1 Thessalonians 5:16-18

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

Matthew,

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

This is still referring to Israel and not the Church.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

This again is about Israel. They will sign a treaty of peace with the antichrist, and for the first 3 1/2 year there will be peace in the land of Israel. But then the antichrist will break his covenant with Israel and then begin to destroy all the Jews and all new believers in Christ.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-12 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God...8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:That they all might be ****ed who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

The delusion mentioned here is that all the unsaved will believe that antichrist is the Second Coming of Messiah, and that he is God come in the flesh to Sheppard Israel.

Zechariah 11:16 For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land, which shall not care for those who are cut off, neither nor seek the young , nor heal that that is broken, nor feed those that that stand still: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their hooves in pieces.

Matthew

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

There appears to be a great separation that takes place here. Is it the Rapture of the Church? No. This is the time of judgment not salvation. Those who are deemed worthy will enter into the Jewish Kingdom.

Matthew 25:31-35,

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world...Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels...And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

These nations are judged for how they treated Israel. This is a judgment of works and has nothing to do with Salvation through grace. This indicates strongly that these people are not the Church.

Zechariah 14:16 says: "And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles."

The Church is not under the law. We have been set free of the law in our belief in Jesus Christ our Saviour. These nations that enter into the Jewish Kingdom are NOT the Church. Luke 21:36 says:

Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Again we see judgement and salvation based on works. It is very clear here that this is in fact not the Church. We have been set free of the works of the law.

Today the Israel awaits the return of their Messiah. They do not in any way accept Jesus as their Messiah. They are also ignorant of the fact that Jesus is Jehovah God in the flesh. Only when Messiah comes will they see for the first time that their Saviour God is Jesus the one they rejected. Only when they receive the Holy Spirit will they see the truth.

Zechariah 12:9 "And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem..."

We the Church are not waiting for the return of the Messiah to set up His Jewish Kingdom on earth. We are waiting for the return of Jesus Christ. We will enter into Him and not enter into the Jewish Kingdom. The coming kingdom is not our salvation.

Our salvation is in Jesus Christ alone. We enter into Him through grace. We will not enter into the Jewish Kingdom by works. Why is because we the Church will go to be with the Lord before the tribulation of wrath begins. Our hop is not in a Jewish Kingdom. Our hope is in Jesus Christ our Saviour who will soon Rapture us to Himself. Some wait for the Kingdom to come. I wait for the King Himself to come.

Yes come quickly Lord Jesus!
 
Oct 5, 2009
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#88
see mathew 24 has nothing to do with the church nobodies throwing out anything your just trying to add it where it dont belong dont add to scriptures youll end up with distorted bad post trib theology
 
Apr 23, 2009
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#89
The Church was not in the first prophetic 69 weeks of years spoken of by Daniel and cannot be in the 70th week (Daniel 9:24-27)
These 70 weeks equal 490 years of, what was then, future history for Israel. This 70th week, which is still future, is for Israel and the Church is not there.
Like I said this is indoctrination, not scripture.
 
Apr 23, 2009
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#90
see mathew 24 has nothing to do with the church nobodies throwing out anything your just trying to add it where it dont belong dont add to scriptures youll end up with distorted bad post trib theology
Jesus Christ, Paul, and john the Revelator were all post trib believers. Pretrib is the bad false theology.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#91
Matt 24 is for the church as well, in 70 AD there would have been plenty of christians around. Afterall just remember that Jesus was speaking this to his disciples, Christians! So your opinions are completely wrong.


Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Again we see judgement and salvation based on works. It is very clear here that this is in fact not the Church. We have been set free of the works of the law.
What a silly argument. Being counted worthy is not salvation by works. Next you'll be saying that "praying always and watching" is salvation by works.
In other places the disciples are counted worthy to suffer for Christ. Is that salvation by works too?

Your heresies about the pre-trib view is somehow tied in with other false doctrine about "once saved always saved".
 
Oct 5, 2009
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#92
you failed real bad on mathew 24 and got daniels 70 weeks wrong to for the same reason of not discerning the diffrence in the jews and the church age and not being able to tell the rapture from second coming those things happen when theres no rightly deviding
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#93
see mathew 24 has nothing to do with the church nobodies throwing out anything your just trying to add it where it dont belong dont add to scriptures youll end up with distorted bad post trib theology
1. Matthew 24 was spoken to the members of his church - his followers.
2. It has multiple relevance to end-times events and the church, as prophecy usually does.
3. The elect are Christians, not Jews, unless they be Messianic.
4. The intent of the invading armies was to destroy the temple - it was God's punishment/judgement for the Israelites, not for the Christians.
 
Oct 5, 2009
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#94
mathew 24 is future dont try pulling the preterist 70 ad now that you got the post trib exposed as wrong i already said things that happened way back were shadows of things coming so its completly correct
 
Oct 5, 2009
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#95
Is the elect of Matthew 24 the Church?
Is Matthew 24:31 the gathering of the Church? Does this mean that the believer's in Christ will have to go through the Tribulation? Does this prove that there is no pretrib Rapture? The answer to these question is certainly NO. It is only true when groups begin to manipulate scripture to have them mean what they want them to mean. Let us now look at Matthew 24:30,31 where it says:

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Notice that this is a time of the second coming of Christ to set up the promised Kingdom of David. This is a Jewish Kingdom and has little to do with the Gentiles. The Messiah comes back for Israel at this time and not the Gentiles.

Notice that the tribes of the earth shall morn when they see Messiah (Second Coming) " coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." Zechariah 12:9-11 says:

"And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem..."

No where in Scripture does it say that the Church of Christ will morn when Messiah returns. You will also notice that the term Son of Man is used in Matthew. For the Church, we worship the Son of God because we are saved by believing Christ is God. Israel has never accepted Jesus Christ as their Messiah. Once they see the Son of Man coming in clouds of power and glory, Israel for the first time will recognise that their Messiah is the man Jesus that they had rejected and denied through all the centuries. Oh yes there will be great mourning among the Jews as they, "mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son."

This is a time when Israel will for the first time receive the Holy Spirit. Today Israel is an unbelieving nation that denies the Deity of Christ and still waits for her Messiah. Unlike the Gentiles and the Jews of the early Church, the house of Israel has never been Baptised in the Holy Spirit of salvation. A time is coming when they will have their Pentecost and out pouring of the Holy Spirit. Only then will they be saved. And only then will they recognise Jesus for the first time. As for now, "they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." Romans 10 3,4.

Why Israel today does not except Jesus today is that because of their rejection and cusifixition of Christ, "God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway." Romans 11:8-10

It's because of this that Israel has never been given the Holy Spirit and thus will not be Raptured and will enter into the Great Tribulation before their Kingdom is established on earth. The Wrath of God will be upon them and through great sorrows the nation of Israel will be born in a day.

Now for the second half of Matthew. "...And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

There are those that see this as the Rapture of the Church to Christ as returns to the earth. First of all we are told that at the time of Rapture we will go up to Jesus to meet Him in the air. "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." Thessalonians 4:16,17

Here we see that we will be caught up and there is not even a hint of angels gathering us together. So who are the elect that are being gathered together by the angels? It is none other than Israel. Since Israel has been scattered all over the world, they must be gathered together in Jerusalem to greet their coming King and Messiah. The will be gathered together, baptised in the Holy Spirit, and then enter into the new Jewish Kingdom under God. Those who missed Rapture will be gathered from the earth and those who died in the Tribulation will be gathered from heaven to enter into the promised Kingdom. The "elect" spoken of in Matthew is Israel.

"Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD." Ezekiel 37:12-14

This is clearly not the Rapture and resurrection of the Church. We are not gathered together in the land of Israel. "For our citizenship is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. Philippians 3:20,21 The following is from Cornerstone Church.

"Jesus said, 'For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are like the angels in heaven.' People with resurrected bodies won't be able to marry or have children. At the Rapture, every Christian will receive a resurrected body, therefore we canÕt be involved in repopulating the earth. So, the Rapture can't occur at the same time as the second coming because no one would be available in natural bodies to repopulate the earth.

Only people in their natural, unresurrected bodies are able to have children. Because the earth's population will be drastically reduced because most people will be killed (or raptured) before Jesus returns, the earth will need to be repopulated. Jesus referred to the millennial kingdom on earth as the 'regeneration' (see Matt. 19:28) which means 'repopulation.'"

In Ezekiel we read, "And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwelling places, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God." Ezekiel 37:21-23

Some may say that this has already taken place in 1948 when Israel became a nation. Yes, but they are a nation without a King. The above verse is speaking of the Second Coming and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the House Of Israel. Now what about the Church of Christ the Bride.

"...the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee." Zechariah 14:5 The Church will be coming with Christ and not gathered into Jerusalem. If we are to be Raptured when Jesus is coming to the earth, then there would be no time for the Judgment Seat of Christ or the Lamb's Supper. Also why be Rapture up only to come back down at the same time? Makes no sense at all.

Here is an outline of events.

1. The Rapture of the Church to become citizens in heaven.

2. The Tribulation comes and God begins to deal with Israel in judgment and wrath for rejection of Christ.

3. Christ returns as Messiah with the Raptured Church to save Israel and establish the Jewish Kingdom on earth.

4. The elect are gathered together by the angels to greet their new King in Jerusalem and to be given the Holy Spirit for the first time.

For two thousand years the Church has been ready to be Raptured. We Recieved the Holy Spirit, been washed clean of sin, made whole, and have preached the word. During this same time Israel has worshiped other gods, denied Christ as their King and Messiah, have clung to works of the law, and has not been filled with the Holy Spirit. So when Christ returns for His believers, the House of Israel will not be ready and will enter into God's Tribulation Wrath known as the time of "Jacob's (Israel) trouble." Jesus clearly told the Jews that, "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof." Matthew 21:43

Like green figs, Israel will not be ready when the Lord returns. Only the grapes of the new covenant believers will be ready to be caught up and taken to heaven.

"My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away. For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone; The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land; The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away." Song of Solomon 2: 10-13

Praise the name of Jehovah and our Lord Jesus Christ! Let Israel be born again and let us rejoice for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#96
you failed real bad on mathew 24 and got daniels 70 weeks wrong to for the same reason of not discerning the diffrence in the jews and the church age and not being able to tell the rapture from second coming those things happen when theres no rightly deviding
You're only trying to prove a modern day pre-trib heresy by
a) taking theologians such as John Gill out of context (do your research better next time).
b) misquoting early church writings
c) misquoting the bible
d) differentiating betweein church and tribulation saints , and claiming a person can be a christian even though they dont have the Spirit living inside them
e) appealing to "once saved always saved" heresy - using one false doctrine to support another.

When we read the bible from beginning to end (no jigsaw puzzles fitting verses together where they dont fit), take an honest look at early church writings, not to mention the reformers (luther, calvin), and many great protestant theologians/scholars, put down our copies of the left behind movies and books and computer games (the only way they can get their false doctrine published), we will see that the pre-trib rapture belief falls short as a modern day and last day false doctrine.

Up until the 1800's or thereabouts, most christians believed simply that the Lord was going to return after the anti-christ was revealed. None of this pre-trib rapture nonsense. We're not waiting for the rapture, we're waiting for the second coming.
 
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Apr 23, 2009
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#97
you failed real bad on mathew 24 and got daniels 70 weeks wrong to for the same reason of not discerning the diffrence in the jews and the church age and not being able to tell the rapture from second coming those things happen when theres no rightly deviding
Scripture tells us a few things
#1 Jesu sreturns after the tribulation (Matthew 24)
#2 The resurrection of the just and the rapture occur at the 2nd coming (1st Thess 4:15-17)
#3 the resurrection of the just is before the rapture and doews not occur until the 2nd coming 1st Thess 4:13-18, 1st Corinthians 15:20-23)
#4 The first resurrection is after the tribulation therefore the rapture cannot be before it starts via 1-3 (Revelation 20:4-6)


Scripture tells us the rapture is post trib regardless of what you have been taught to believe.
 
Oct 5, 2009
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#98
see how you were wrong again doesnt it bother you that you go all around forums contradicting obvious truths to attempt to cause confusion i know alot of people point yall out for it often and everyone can see it clearly regardless of what the subject it. people know whats up when some call truth lies and lies truths the Bible warns of it switching dark for light and light for dark. but some see thru what you attempt to pull on a daily bases. you should pray and get rid of your manmade learnt doctrines and really study ask God to help you
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#99
Corrie Ten Boom said:


<B>In China, the Christians were told, "Don't worry, before the tribulation comes you will be translated &#8211; raptured." Then came a terrible persecution. Millions of Christians were tortured to death. Later I heard a Bishop from China say, sadly,
"We have failed.
We should have made the people strong for persecution,
rather than telling them Jesus would come first.
Tell the people how to be strong in times of persecution,
how to stand when the tribulation comes,
&#8211; to stand and not faint."
I feel I have a divine mandate to go and tell the people of this world that it is possible to be strong in the Lord Jesus Christ. We are in training for the tribulation, but more than sixty percent of the Body of Christ across the world has already entered into the tribulation. There is no way to escape it.
We are next.
</B>

http://endtimepilgrim.org/corrie.htm
 
Apr 23, 2009
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people know whats up when some call truth lies and lies truths the Bible warns of it switching dark for light and light for dark. .
And you should heed this warning seeing as you are quoting it
you should pray and get rid of your manmade learnt doctrines and really study ask God to help you
It always blows my mind when pretribbers start speaking against man made doctrines, how hypocritical.
 
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