DOES GOD CHOOSE, OR DOES MAN CHOOSE?

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DOES GOD CHOOSE PEOPLE FOR SALVATION?

  • YES, GOD CHOOSES PEOPLE FOR SALVATION

    Votes: 13 76.5%
  • NO, GOD DOES NOT CHOOSE PEOPLE FOR SALVATION; THEY CHOOSE THEMSELVES

    Votes: 4 23.5%
  • I REFUSE TO ANSWER BECAUSE IT WOULD EXPOSE MY god-idol

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    17

stillness

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2013
1,257
211
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Walk trough the valley
#21
1 Corinthians 1:

[SUP]26 [/SUP]For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards,[SUP][c][/SUP] not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. [SUP]27 [/SUP]But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; [SUP]28 [/SUP]God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, [SUP]29 [/SUP]so that no human being[SUP][d][/SUP] might boast in the presence of God. [SUP]30 [/SUP]And because of him[SUP][e][/SUP] you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, [SUP]31 [/SUP]so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”


REFORMED RESPONSE: HALLELUJAH, PRAISE GOD! THANK GOD WHO SAVES WEAK THINGS TO SHOW HIS STRENGTH.

ARMINIAN RESPONSE: I chose me, and my wise decision caused my salvation. Something must be out of context here. Because..I choose me, not God.
There is a response left out, "He that is joined to the Lord in one Spirit with Him," We (us and God) chose in agreement with God: "Forgive us as we forgive," Many Christians don't read well, "Death and hell gave up the dead that are in them and everyone was judged according to his work." this is after the thousand year reign of Christ with those who suffered with him. "some will be saved but as through fire." No mater what we think we are not saved by understanding, neither should it hinder us, but "If I have not Love I am nothing." Jesus said that rejecting the son of man would be forgiven, but rejecting the Holy spirit would not be forgiven: much is overlooked unless your fascinated by the mystery of God, but even that understanding doesn't help us grow in Love. "If we are led by the Spirit we are not under the Law," and are forgiven.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
463
83
#22
Luke 7:
30) But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

How do Calvinists explain this verse?

The Pharisees and lawyers REJECTED what God wanted them to do.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
56,057
26,163
113
#23
Acts 17:30) And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but
now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Have all men everywhere repented?

Why not?
The lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, which comes from the world.

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
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#24
It seems it is a combination of both.....Joshua did say to choose this day whom you will serve...but it also states that God has chosen us in Christ as well.....it seems there is a balance....God knows who will believe and yet it also states that many (not all) are called but few (chosen).......order and balance it seems.....
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,521
12,963
113
#25
But I was lied to in Arminian churches for years, even though what I was reading in my Bible confirmed my experience! Which was God saved me, through the preaching of the gospel!
Exactly. But the Gospel is for all the world and for every creature. So if God were saving sinners by fiat, then all would be unquestionably saved. But God's conditions for salvation are repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21). Since not all will obey the Gospel, only those who obey the Gospel are saved.
 
Sep 6, 2014
7,034
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#26
Romans 8:28-30
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:3-6
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Acts 5:38-39
And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: 39But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,521
12,963
113
#27
Romans 8:28-30
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
"For whom he did foreknow". Here is the key. God -- in His Divine foreknowledge -- knew exactly who would respond to the Gospel. And therefore those who obeyed the Gospel (believed on the Lord Jesus Christ) were predestined. FOR WHAT? To be conformed to the image of His Son, meaning to be perfected and glorified and resemble Christ in every way (1 Jn 3:1-3).

God could have simply saved sinners from Hell and left it at that. But He had an eternal purpose for the Church (Ephesians 1-3) which included the perfection and glorification of the saints.

Had God been choosing (electing) sinners for salvation, He would have made it impossible for any human being not be to saved, since His desire was that the world -- through Christ -- might be saved (John 1:17).

 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,660
57
48
#28
It seems it is a combination of both.....Joshua did say to choose this day whom you will serve...but it also states that God has chosen us in Christ as well.....it seems there is a balance....God knows who will believe and yet it also states that many (not all) are called but few (chosen).......order and balance it seems.....
There is no "combination of both" in Calvinism.
There is no "balance" in Calvinism.

Combinations of both and balance are within the realm of free will and has no part in the irresistible grace of TULIP.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#29
When God commands you to be saved, you obey! No choice at all. When God spoke to me, there was no resisting his will for my life, which was to believe and serve him.

But I was lied to in Arminian churches for years, even though what I was reading in my Bible confirmed my experience! Which was God saved me, through the preaching of the gospel!

God is totally in control and sovereign in salvation. And yes, we do obey, because he has commanded us to walk with him! But, he also gives us the power, through the Holy Spirit to obey God and be transformed. (Romans 12:2; 2 Cor. 3:18)
God has commanded that all men be saved not just some. Yes men do resist and turn from the command to be saved.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Every man is responsible to God for his or her sin. God does not choose but by grace through mercy offers forgiveness and eternal life to those who come to the Light.

Do not make God responsible for your sin.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,783
2,947
113
#30
Acts 17:30) And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Have all men everywhere repented?

Why not?

General call, not personal call, which I believe is called “effectual” call. Also, context is so important in this passage. Who is Paul addressing? Well, the Greek sages and scholars in Athens. It is a wonderful example of apologetic, the first of its kind.

So Paul stood before the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I see that you are very religious in all respects. 23 For as I went around and observed closely your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: ‘To an unknown god.’ Therefore what you worship without knowing it, this I proclaim to you. 24 The God who made the world and everything in it, who is Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by human hands, 25 nor is he served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives life and breath and everything to everyone. 26 From one man he made every nation of the human race to inhabit the entire earth, determining their set times and the fixed limits of the places where they would live, 27 so that they would search for God and perhaps grope around for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28 For in him we live and move about and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we too are his offspring.’ 29 So since we are God’s offspring, we should not think the deity is like gold or silver or stone, an image made by human skill and imagination. 30 Therefore, although God has overlooked such times of ignorance, he now commands all people everywhere to repent, 31 because he has set a day on which he is going to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom he designated, having provided proof to everyone by raising him from the dead.”
[FONT=&quot]32 Now when they heard about the resurrection from the dead, some began to scoff, but others said, “We will hear you again about this. So Paul left the Areopagus. 34 But some people joined him and believed. Among them were Dionysius, who was a member of the Areopagus, a woman named Damaris, and others with them.” Acts 17:22-33 NET[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Paul speaks to this people and tells them the gospel. He shares the foundation for God although not the actual gospel, or perhaps I should say, he did not record the name of Jesus. Only a few believed. And yet, this speech remains vital. These people did not know the living God, and sadly, most went away not knowing who he was. Although a few did want to meet later.

Paul even quoted a Cretan poet in this passage. That does not make all of this man’s poetry from God. So, just because someone hears about God, doesn’t mean God saves them immediately. As for the word “command,” I do not have my Greek tools available, but this is a fairly simple verb, from:
παραγγελία
[FONT=&quot]


παραγγέλλει - Present Active Indicative 3rd person singular! I would say that probably this is not the kind of command like when God commands creation. Perhaps “charge or mandate” would be a better translation? Not sure, need to consult a lot of books. Since most of the translations I looked up to say “command” probably the right usage, but more God’s general command and call, than a specific call to each person. Someone else might be able to answer this question better than me!
[/FONT]
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
463
83
#31



General call, not personal call, which I believe is called “effectual” call. Also, context is so important in this passage. Who is Paul addressing? Well, the Greek sages and scholars in Athens. It is a wonderful example of apologetic, the first of its kind.

So Paul stood before the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I see that you are very religious in all respects. 23 For as I went around and observed closely your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: ‘To an unknown god.’ Therefore what you worship without knowing it, this I proclaim to you. 24 The God who made the world and everything in it, who is Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by human hands, 25 nor is he served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives life and breath and everything to everyone. 26 From one man he made every nation of the human race to inhabit the entire earth, determining their set times and the fixed limits of the places where they would live, 27 so that they would search for God and perhaps grope around for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28 For in him we live and move about and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we too are his offspring.’ 29 So since we are God’s offspring, we should not think the deity is like gold or silver or stone, an image made by human skill and imagination. 30 Therefore, although God has overlooked such times of ignorance, he now commands all people everywhere to repent, 31 because he has set a day on which he is going to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom he designated, having provided proof to everyone by raising him from the dead.”
[FONT="][COLOR=#b22222][FONT=verdana][SIZE=3][B]32 [/B]Now when they heard about the resurrection from the dead, some began to scoff, but others said, “We will hear you again about this. So Paul left the Areopagus. [B]34 [/B]But some people joined him and believed. Among them were Dionysius, who was a member of the Areopagus, a woman named Damaris, and others with them.” Acts 17:22-33 NET[/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT="]
Paul speaks to this people and tells them the gospel. He shares the foundation for God although not the actual gospel, or perhaps I should say, he did not record the name of Jesus. Only a few believed. And yet, this speech remains vital. These people did not know the living God, and sadly, most went away not knowing who he was. Although a few did want to meet later.

Paul even quoted a Cretan poet in this passage. That does not make all of this man’s poetry from God. So, just because someone hears about God, doesn’t mean God saves them immediately. As for the word “command,” I do not have my Greek tools available, but this is a fairly simple verb, from:


παραγγέλλει - Present Active Indicative 3rd person singular! I would say that probably this is not the kind of command like when God commands creation. Perhaps “charge or mandate” would be a better translation? Not sure, need to consult a lot of books. Since most of the translations I looked up to say “command” probably the right usage, but more God’s general command and call, than a specific call to each person. Someone else might be able to answer this question better than me!
[/FONT]
So God generally commands, charges, or mandates all people everywhere to repent, but He doesn't really mean it?
 
Sep 14, 2017
900
23
0
#32



General call, not personal call, which I believe is called “effectual” call. Also, context is so important in this passage. Who is Paul addressing? Well, the Greek sages and scholars in Athens. It is a wonderful example of apologetic, the first of its kind.

So Paul stood before the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I see that you are very religious in all respects. 23 For as I went around and observed closely your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: ‘To an unknown god.’ Therefore what you worship without knowing it, this I proclaim to you. 24 The God who made the world and everything in it, who is Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by human hands, 25 nor is he served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives life and breath and everything to everyone. 26 From one man he made every nation of the human race to inhabit the entire earth, determining their set times and the fixed limits of the places where they would live, 27 so that they would search for God and perhaps grope around for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28 For in him we live and move about and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we too are his offspring.’ 29 So since we are God’s offspring, we should not think the deity is like gold or silver or stone, an image made by human skill and imagination. 30 Therefore, although God has overlooked such times of ignorance, he now commands all people everywhere to repent, 31 because he has set a day on which he is going to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom he designated, having provided proof to everyone by raising him from the dead.”
32 Now when they heard about the resurrection from the dead, some began to scoff, but others said, “We will hear you again about this. So Paul left the Areopagus. 34 But some people joined him and believed. Among them were Dionysius, who was a member of the Areopagus, a woman named Damaris, and others with them.” Acts 17:22-33 NET

Paul speaks to this people and tells them the gospel. He shares the foundation for God although not the actual gospel, or perhaps I should say, he did not record the name of Jesus. Only a few believed. And yet, this speech remains vital. These people did not know the living God, and sadly, most went away not knowing who he was. Although a few did want to meet later.

Paul even quoted a Cretan poet in this passage. That does not make all of this man’s poetry from God. So, just because someone hears about God, doesn’t mean God saves them immediately. As for the word “command,” I do not have my Greek tools available, but this is a fairly simple verb, from:


παραγγέλλει - Present Active Indicative 3rd person singular! I would say that probably this is not the kind of command like when God commands creation. Perhaps “charge or mandate” would be a better translation? Not sure, need to consult a lot of books. Since most of the translations I looked up to say “command” probably the right usage, but more God’s general command and call, than a specific call to each person. Someone else might be able to answer this question better than me!
God commanded Israel to repent, but they didn't. In Revelation Jesus commands the churches to repent, & then told them what would happen if they did or didn't, which clearly points to the fact that some won't obey.
 
Sep 14, 2017
900
23
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#33
Delusion - refusing what is written in plain sight in the scriptures & believing something else that can't be biblically proven.
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
88
48
#34
Arminius dealt with this issue. Those who think its one or the other are shortsighted and do not let all of Scripture speak and teach us as it should.

Its both and the truth is not in one or the other but found when we acknowledge that both are biblical and find the truth is in seeing both.

Man has no hope and did not seek God and would have simply perished Had God not chosen to save us by his will and his strength.

But in God choosing to do this He offered us a gift, that now through his choosing us we can chose to accept or reject that salvation. Our choice is based in His choice to save.

His initiative opened by His power made an option for us humans. Without His choice there is no choice but death for us. But in His Choice we have choice to live or to die. To accept or reject.

Arminius did not simply take an opposite stance to Calvin and anyone who suggests he did needs to go study some more. Arminius simply acknowledged what the bible says on this issue both for Gods choice to save and our choice to accept.
 

Waggles

Senior Member
Sep 21, 2017
3,338
1,261
113
South
adelaiderevival.com
#35
Sparkman -
let's read some more scripture and meditate on this

John 6:
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:
and I will raise him up at the last day.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me,
except it were given unto him of my Father.

John 10:
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

also note that one of the nine gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed to the
saints in a Pentecostal church is faith.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,687
13,139
113
#36
I'm puzzled about how humankind keeps having this argument for a couple thousand years after Jesus literally said "you have not chosen me but I have chosen you"
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
463
83
#37
I'm puzzled about how humankind keeps having this argument for a couple thousand years after Jesus literally said "you have not chosen me but I have chosen you"
Don't be puzzled. The answer to your quandary is to understand who Jesus was talking to. He was addressing his 12 disciples, and he most definitely did choose them.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
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#38
There is no "combination of both" in Calvinism.
There is no "balance" in Calvinism.

Combinations of both and balance are within the realm of free will and has no part in the irresistible grace of TULIP.
So what.....I said nothing about Tulip......
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
88
48
#39
Don't be puzzled. The answer to your quandary is to understand who Jesus was talking to. He was addressing his 12 disciples, and he most definitely did choose them.
lol now now shrume don't let context inform you, that is not how it works here. We just find a text by itself that seems to agree with us and then quote it.

We don't learn from scripture we use it to push our own Ideas.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,687
13,139
113
#40
Don't be puzzled. The answer to your quandary is to understand who Jesus was talking to. He was addressing his 12 disciples, and he most definitely did choose them.
Funny how sometimes we assume that when He says things to them, He means us - like 'go into all the world and make disciples' - and form whole doctrines from that assumption - but other times, we don't.