Does God chose people?
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SeaBass is correct in his logic. That is the fallacy of the Reformed view. You cannot have it both ways. Either God predestines, or man is free and chooses. If God selects some, the inverse is that those not selected are lost. God is determining the fate of both sides. God would have no reason at all to condemn any man when He alone is the active agent in the world regarding salvation. Reformed view makes man a passive object, innert, benign creature. One that actually is not even a creature in God's image any longer. He is less than an animal who at least operates on instinct.
i hope no one is assuming i'm a 'Calvanist' or a 'Reformed' or a 'Star-Bellied Sneetch'
i freely admit i'm not educated on this mans theology & have zero interest in being so educated. i am concerned with what the scripture actually says. if you want to talk to John Calvin, iirc his body died, so you'll have to wait until glory. for now, hi, you can call me post
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i freely admit i'm not educated on this mans theology & have zero interest in being so educated. i am concerned with what the scripture actually says. if you want to talk to John Calvin, iirc his body died, so you'll have to wait until glory. for now, hi, you can call me post
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In Rom 9:19 it would be the Jews finding fault with God for God casting them off. God used (formed) Israel as He saw fit. He used them to bring the Messiah into the world (though all their disobedience to Him) and used their disobedience to crucify the Messiah for the sins of mankind. THe Jews argument is that since God used them in such ways to bring about His will, they had a right to be God's elect. God using their disobedience to accomplish His will did not give them the right to be disobedient nor the right to be of God's elect. Who are these Jews to talk back to the Potter?
That just makes it worse for your view. God has called all men to fulfull His purpose. But He created man free to choose to do that purpose, or to not work with God to do that purpose.
Christ saved all men from destruction, the condemnation of death, just so each man could choose life or death. God thought is quite unjust that all men were condemned to death by Satan, by the ONE sin of ONE man. Christ reversed the fall, so that all men could choose as freely as did Adam in the beginning. That is the purpose of God.
Christ saved all men from destruction, the condemnation of death, just so each man could choose life or death. God thought is quite unjust that all men were condemned to death by Satan, by the ONE sin of ONE man. Christ reversed the fall, so that all men could choose as freely as did Adam in the beginning. That is the purpose of God.
Rom 8:28 "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."
Rom 8:29 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."
From verse 28, who is it that loves God and are "the called" (Jude 1:1)? Christians.
You, me or anyone else as individuals outside of this group "Christian" do not love God nor are of the called.
He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
(John 1:11-13)
if i have it in me to become a son of God, where did i get that power?
whom shall i thank?
none other than God, the one true God, whose lovingkindness is everlasting
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
(John 1:11-13)
if i have it in me to become a son of God, where did i get that power?
whom shall i thank?
none other than God, the one true God, whose lovingkindness is everlasting
I see nothing in Eph 1:4,5 that says individuals were predestined unconditionally. I do read that certain traits/characteristics of being "in Him" and "holy and without blame" and being called "sons" were predestined for the predestined group Christian. So whosoever becomes a Christian then becomes part of that foreknow group and takes on those foreknown traits.
No one here can show me an individual that is "in Him", '"holy and without blame" and a "son" of God while OUTSIDE of that predestined group "Christian".
D
I agree that God has no obligation to bring men to Christ. I'm not lost on you entirely seabass.
I appreciate your message that we need to show restraint and not abuse our gift of salvation. I guess for those very serious about this like all of us here are, we are so very lucky to make it to a place where these things matter so much.
And I beg to differ that election means we are preferred and we should boast - I think it goes way beyond that. Many of us that accept these parts in scripture readily admit we are dead in sin and we need God to help us along the way.
I appreciate your message that we need to show restraint and not abuse our gift of salvation. I guess for those very serious about this like all of us here are, we are so very lucky to make it to a place where these things matter so much.
And I beg to differ that election means we are preferred and we should boast - I think it goes way beyond that. Many of us that accept these parts in scripture readily admit we are dead in sin and we need God to help us along the way.
God did not predestinate YOU. Predestination is not about YOU but about a group called Christians that God foreknew and predestinated and predestinated that this group be in Christ, holy and without blame and be called sons of God.
YOU outside of this group are NOTHING.
YOU by yourself apart from this group are not in Christ, YOU are not holy and without blame, YOU are not a son of God
YOU outside of this group are NOTHING.
YOU by yourself apart from this group are not in Christ, YOU are not holy and without blame, YOU are not a son of God
*cough*
i think the appropriate response is "Lord, please give me of this Spirit"
and then thank God for His mercy!!!
Unless the Lord had been my help,
my soul had almost dwelt in silence.
When I said, My foot slippeth;
thy mercy, O Lord, held me up.
In the multitude of my thoughts within me
thy comforts delight my soul.
(Psalm 94:17-19)
for a bunch of servants, i think we often talk like we own the place.
i'm dust; being alive at all is a gift from heaven!
i think the appropriate response is "Lord, please give me of this Spirit"
and then thank God for His mercy!!!
Unless the Lord had been my help,
my soul had almost dwelt in silence.
When I said, My foot slippeth;
thy mercy, O Lord, held me up.
In the multitude of my thoughts within me
thy comforts delight my soul.
(Psalm 94:17-19)
for a bunch of servants, i think we often talk like we own the place.
i'm dust; being alive at all is a gift from heaven!