Does God kill christians in judgement?

[Ariel82]

Here is something a little more 'studious' that I just picked up on...I think it deserves some consideration as it contains biblical truth and application


With that proviso, how would the cruciform hermeneutic assess the Ananias and Sapphira debacle (Acts 5:1-10)? This couple said they had given all the money they’d made from a piece of property to the apostles when, in fact, they had kept some of the money for themselves. Peter first confronted Ananias, telling him that Satan had filled his heart and that he’d lied not only to people, but also to God. Ananias immediately dropped dead. His wife showed up three hours later and Peter confronted her as well. He gave her a chance to repent, but she stuck to her lie. Peter then pointed out that she had conspired with Ananias against the Lord and would now join him in the grave, at which point Sapphira fell over dead (Ac. 5:1-10).

There’s no denying that the passage depicts the death of this couple as a divine judgment. So, if the cross is the hermeneutical key to understanding God’s true character, the first question we must ask is, what does the cross reveal about the nature of Gods’ judgments? What it says, I contend, is that God judges sin by withdrawing from it, thereby allowing people to suffer its death consequences. God “delivered Jesus over” to suffer at the hands of wicked humans as well as Satan and other fallen powers. And when Jesus became our sin (2 Cor 5:21) and our curse (Gal 3:13), God the Father withdrew his presence from him, which is why Jesus experienced genuine God-forsakenness (Mt 27:46).

The cross reveals, and a wealth of biblical material confirms, that the essence of God’s “wrath” against sin is simply allowing evil to run its self-destructive course. The essence of sin is pushing God away, and since God is the source of life, sin is, by its very nature, choosing death. excerpt from a post by Greg Boyd

I think this has already been stated...I think by Grace? but I find this says it so clearly and I am in agreement with it...so, there yah go!

Hey that is pretty awesome.

Yeah I totally agree.

not sure if your still mad at me are not, but just wanted to say thanks. It explains it nicely.

Grace777 and I have been talking on another thread along similar lines and this does clarify things.

Anyway, thanks.



On that note....I am gonna find another thread to haunt. I just wanted to figure out a few things.

 

[JGIG]

And all that was just in this thread?..Wow! Imagine how much this kind of behavior has been going on now for over 9 months and the need for implementing Romans 16:17 is needed more then ever.

It's actually astounding when you step back and look at things. This behavior comes from some that say "we are to walk in righteousness and purity" - no wonder the name of the Lord is blasphemed amongst the Gentiles - as Paul says.

I hear you. Unfortunately we cannot 'avoid' his behavior unless WE leave - and it's verse 18 that causes me to take a stand when it comes to the author of the OP:

17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. (from Rom. 16)​

'Mark them.'

That is what I'm doing for the sake of the hearts of the simple.

The premise of the OP that states that God KILLS HIS OWN CHILDREN as punishment for sin is gross error, and showing the patterns of the poster of such error goes to his lack of credibility. He is far from understanding the simple Truths of the Gospel and the character of God, despite his mixing in of 'good words and fair speeches' with the passive-aggressive abuse of those who disagree with him.


-JGIG

 

[TrailofTruth]

There are people who go to church, actually get saved, but do not make it to the end. Take those who believe in God, and narrow that group down to those who believe and obey, and narrow that group down to those who believe, obey, and remain faithful till the end, and then you have the VERY elect of God- those who will make it to heaven. These 'Christians were not genuine Christians. And, YES! God still does this today. The following famous people mocked God and died...



1. President of Brazil, Tancredo NevesDuring the Presidential campaign, he said if he got 500,000 votes from his party, not even God would remove him from Presidency.It was reported that he really did get the votes. But, a day before he is took office as President, he died because of surgery complication that he underwent a few days before the inauguration.
2. John Lennon (The Beatles)Almost everyone knows who The Beatles is. In the 60s the band became such a phenomenon. The ladies were head over heels in love with one of the band members, John Lennon.Some years before, during his interview with an American Magazine, he said:"Christianity will end, it will disappear. I do not have to argue about that. I am certain. Jesus was ok, but his subjects were too simple, Today we are more famous than Him" (1966).His remark had caused an outrage among their fans and triggered a protest rally where people expressed their anger by stepping and setting the vinyl record and The Beatles poster on fire.In 1970, The Beatles disbanded.On the 8 December 1980, John Lennon was shot six times by one of his fanatics in front of his house and died at the scene.3. Marilyn Monroe (Hollywood Celebrity)She had the perfect life anyone could dream of; remarkable wealth and great fame. Despite all that, Marilyn kept all of her sufferings to herself.One day during filming, a preacher named Billy Graham visited her. He said the Spirit of God had sent him to preach to her. After hearing what the Preacher had to say, she said: "I don't need your Jesus".During that time, Monroe who was allegedly having a romantic affair with the President of the United States, John F Kennedy.A week later, she was found dead in her bedroom. Theories of her death started to spread. Some say she was assassinated because of political conspiracies and in the end, the most accepted theory up to this day is she committed suicide.It shows that she was suffering from a severe depression. In fact it is actually the right time for her to seek God, asking for help, not to take the easy way out by taking her own life.4. Thomas Andrews (Titanic Shipbuilder)Thomas Andrews was inspired to build a ship that will be legendary during his time. The ship was the biggest and modern in the world.After the construction of Titanic, a reporter asked him how safe the Titanic would be. With an ironic tone he said: "Not even God can sink it"On 10 April 1912, Titanic set sail from America to Europe. An unprecedented tragedy occurred after four days sailing in the Atlantic Ocean. The ship hit a large iceberg and slowly sank to the the bottom of the ocean, killing 1517 passengers with only 706 survivors. Andrews died on the ship.5. Bon Scott (AC/DC Former Vocalist)He was an Australian rock singer born in 9 July 1956. Scott in his golden days with AC/DC since 1974 had replaced Dave Evans as the vocalist of the band.In 1979, AC/DC came up with a new album and one of the song sung by Scott is:“I’m on the highway to hell.”A year later, Scott was found dead on 19 February 1980 because he choked on his own vomit due to alcohol poisoning. Five months after his demise, AC/DC published an album titled ‘Back in Black’ in honour of the passing of their vocalist.


Perhaps it is just a coincidence that they died after making a remark that seemingly insulted The Almighty, but I don't believe so.

 

[JGIG]

There are people who go to church, actually get saved, but do not make it to the end. Take those who believe in God, and narrow that group down to those who believe and obey, and narrow that group down to those who believe, obey, and remain faithful till the end, and then you have the VERY elect of God- those who will make it to heaven. These 'Christians were not genuine Christians. And, YES! God still does this today. The following famous people mocked God and died...



1. President of Brazil, Tancredo NevesDuring the Presidential campaign, he said if he got 500,000 votes from his party, not even God would remove him from Presidency.It was reported that he really did get the votes. But, a day before he is took office as President, he died because of surgery complication that he underwent a few days before the inauguration.
2. John Lennon (The Beatles)Almost everyone knows who The Beatles is. In the 60s the band became such a phenomenon. The ladies were head over heels in love with one of the band members, John Lennon.Some years before, during his interview with an American Magazine, he said:"Christianity will end, it will disappear. I do not have to argue about that. I am certain. Jesus was ok, but his subjects were too simple, Today we are more famous than Him" (1966).His remark had caused an outrage among their fans and triggered a protest rally where people expressed their anger by stepping and setting the vinyl record and The Beatles poster on fire.In 1970, The Beatles disbanded.On the 8 December 1980, John Lennon was shot six times by one of his fanatics in front of his house and died at the scene.3. Marilyn Monroe (Hollywood Celebrity)She had the perfect life anyone could dream of; remarkable wealth and great fame. Despite all that, Marilyn kept all of her sufferings to herself.One day during filming, a preacher named Billy Graham visited her. He said the Spirit of God had sent him to preach to her. After hearing what the Preacher had to say, she said: "I don't need your Jesus".During that time, Monroe who was allegedly having a romantic affair with the President of the United States, John F Kennedy.A week later, she was found dead in her bedroom. Theories of her death started to spread. Some say she was assassinated because of political conspiracies and in the end, the most accepted theory up to this day is she committed suicide.It shows that she was suffering from a severe depression. In fact it is actually the right time for her to seek God, asking for help, not to take the easy way out by taking her own life.4. Thomas Andrews (Titanic Shipbuilder)Thomas Andrews was inspired to build a ship that will be legendary during his time. The ship was the biggest and modern in the world.After the construction of Titanic, a reporter asked him how safe the Titanic would be. With an ironic tone he said: "Not even God can sink it"On 10 April 1912, Titanic set sail from America to Europe. An unprecedented tragedy occurred after four days sailing in the Atlantic Ocean. The ship hit a large iceberg and slowly sank to the the bottom of the ocean, killing 1517 passengers with only 706 survivors. Andrews died on the ship.5. Bon Scott (AC/DC Former Vocalist)He was an Australian rock singer born in 9 July 1956. Scott in his golden days with AC/DC since 1974 had replaced Dave Evans as the vocalist of the band.In 1979, AC/DC came up with a new album and one of the song sung by Scott is:“I’m on the highway to hell.”A year later, Scott was found dead on 19 February 1980 because he choked on his own vomit due to alcohol poisoning. Five months after his demise, AC/DC published an album titled ‘Back in Black’ in honour of the passing of their vocalist.


Perhaps it is just a coincidence that they died after making a remark that seemingly insulted The Almighty, but I don't believe so.

So our 'making it' is based on what we do, not on believing in Christ and His Work?

That's not Good News.

That's not the Gospel.

Fix your eyes on Christ.

-JGIG

 

[PeterJens]

I hear you. Unfortunately we cannot 'avoid' his behavior unless WE leave - and it's verse 18 that causes me to take a stand when it comes to the author of the OP:

17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. (from Rom. 16)​

'Mark them.'

That is what I'm doing for the sake of the hearts of the simple.

The premise of the OP that states that God KILLS HIS OWN CHILDREN as punishment for sin is gross error, and showing the patterns of the poster of such error goes to his lack of credibility. He is far from understanding the simple Truths of the Gospel and the character of God, despite his mixing in of 'good words and fair speeches' with the passive-aggressive abuse of those who disagree with him.


-JGIG

This is a sad statement. You do not harm me at all by it but yourself.

There will always be justfication to hurt and "mark" others, but this is not our
work in Christ.

You declare by your intentions I am against Christ, yet I come preaching love and
forgiveness. What you hate is my argument or position tears yours down.

It is this fact you cannot stand. I have met muslims who have said the same thing
to me, and wished death to me.

This is where your doctrine and way of believing leads you. And it truly is a sad
place for someone with so much promise.

 

[PeterJens]

One lesson I have learnt my friends from this interaction, is there is no point trying
to resist the arguments of those so convinced reality of everything one contributes
will just get turned around as a technique of discussion and truth becomes irrelevant.

What is funny to me is even the gnostic argument can get recycled.

What is amazing is how destructive this all is, about minor issues or judgements.

God is the Lord, His will is sovereign, yet not my will but yours Lord.

I have seen people who knew the Lord, walked in grace yet suffered painful deaths.
We have a woman who is 90 in dementia, slowly going away, yet she has faithfully
followed Christ most of her life.

We are not saved to be saved from the inheritence of the wages of sin in this world
but in the next. It is a price for the halfway house, where the day of judgement has
been delayed so that more might be saved. Amen. And if through our suffering we
can still rejoice in the love our King has for us, hallelujah.

So much antipathy, so much anger and justification, so sad.

 

[PeterJens]

The religious hate the judgement of God

I lift my hand to heaven and solemnly swear:
As surely as I live forever,
41 when I sharpen my flashing sword
and my hand grasps it in judgment,
I will take vengeance on my adversaries
and repay those who hate me.
42 I will make my arrows drunk with blood,
while my sword devours flesh:
the blood of the slain and the captives,
the heads of the enemy leaders.”
43 Rejoice, you nations, with his people,[e][f]
for he will avenge the blood of his servants;
he will take vengeance on his enemies
and make atonement for his land and people.
Deut 32:40-43

You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.
Matt 10:22

The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify that its works are evil.
John 7:7

 

[Grace777x70]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with having different opinions on a subject especially obscure passages of scripture.

However where it crosses the line is the behavior that some exhibit toward others by insulting them as has been seen and well documented by JGIG here in the below link:

Unfortunately we have go through this every time with this particular originator of this thread.

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...-kill-christians-judgement-4.html#post2760977

 

[pottersclay]

Just when I got the popcorn buttered they stopped posting.................o well

 

[LaurenTM]

Hey that is pretty awesome.

Yeah I totally agree.

not sure if your still mad at me are not, but just wanted to say thanks. It explains it nicely.

Grace777 and I have been talking on another thread along similar lines and this does clarify things.

Anyway, thanks.



On that note....I am gonna find another thread to haunt. I just wanted to figure out a few things.

he is currently writing a book he says may reach 600 pages

reason being, that he is including everything he can to show how he came to what he states

I find his reasoning refreshing

he just makes so much sense..taking into account God THROUGHOUT scripture and not just a passage or several verses, to form a conclusion on the why something happens

thanks

 

[LaurenTM]

The religious hate the judgement of God

I lift my hand to heaven and solemnly swear:
As surely as I live forever,
41 when I sharpen my flashing sword
and my hand grasps it in judgment,
I will take vengeance on my adversaries
and repay those who hate me.
42 I will make my arrows drunk with blood,
while my sword devours flesh:
the blood of the slain and the captives,
the heads of the enemy leaders.”
43 Rejoice, you nations, with his people,[e][f]
for he will avenge the blood of his servants;
he will take vengeance on his enemies
and make atonement for his land and people.
Deut 32:40-43

You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.
Matt 10:22

The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify that its works are evil.
John 7:7

not in my experience

it is the religious who LOVE God's judgement because they don't think it will fall on them

goes something like this:

9To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’13“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’14“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

throwing in some OT scripture will not correct all the error of your presentations

 

[JGIG]

I hear you. Unfortunately we cannot 'avoid' his behavior unless WE leave - and it's verse 18 that causes me to take a stand when it comes to the author of the OP:

17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. (from Rom. 16)​

'Mark them.'

That is what I'm doing for the sake of the hearts of the simple.

The premise of the OP that states that God KILLS HIS OWN CHILDREN as punishment for sin is gross error, and showing the patterns of the poster of such error goes to his lack of credibility. He is far from understanding the simple Truths of the Gospel and the character of God, despite his mixing in of 'good words and fair speeches' with the passive-aggressive abuse of those who disagree with him.


-JGIG

This is a sad statement. You do not harm me at all by it but yourself.

There will always be justfication to hurt and "mark" others, but this is not our
work in Christ.

Take it up with the Apostle Paul:

17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. (from Rom. 16)​

You declare by your intentions I am against Christ, yet I come preaching love and
forgiveness.

You misrepresent even yourself.

You came preaching that God KILLS HIS OWN CHILDREN as punishment for their sins.

What you hate is my argument or position tears yours down.

What I stand against is that you preach that God KILLS HIS OWN CHILDREN as punishment for their sins.

Scripture stands squarely against that concept as demonstrated in previous posts.

It is this fact you cannot stand. I have met muslims who have said the same thing
to me, and wished death to me.

There you go again, trying a backhanded swipe to connect me in some way with 'muslims' who 'wished death to you'. And again with the drama.

This is where your doctrine and way of believing leads you.

To being Muslim and wishing you dead?

Do you have any idea how ridiculous you're sounding?

And it truly is a sad place for someone with so much promise.

 

[UnderGrace]

PeterJens,

I find it interesting that you chose the word "kill" it seems you used this word to be inflammatory.

I have already posted how I see what happened to Ananias and Sapphira. Scripture shows clearly they were believers and they suffered the consequence of choosing death and sin.

Having said that, if God gives life then He can take it if He sees fit to do so, although if I should die tomorrow I do not think I would look at it as if God is killing me, He gives life and He can take life He has authority to do so, this it is not killing.

I think killing is what happens between people, we do not the create life so we have not authority to take life, people do kill others sadly, but not God.

 

[TrailofTruth]

So our 'making it' is based on what we do, not on believing in Christ and His Work?

That's not Good News.

That's not the Gospel.

Fix your eyes on Christ.

-JGIG

Yes! You must obey God in order to receive His grace. Yes, it is a gift, but He only gives the gift to those who obey Him. Our obedience does not earn it, but the obedient are the group of people He chooses to give it to. "Not everyone who calls Me Lord will enter heaven, but only those who DO the will of My Father." Do not be deceived. Satan wants everyone to think there is nothing to do on our part, but we must do God's will- which is obey His commands. Why would He have commands if we didn't need to follow them?

 

[Adstar]

Satan wants everyone to think there is nothing to do on our part, but we must do God's will- which is obey His commands.

And what are His commands ?

Do you have a few examples ?

 

[JGIG]

So our 'making it' is based on what we do, not on believing in Christ and His Work?

That's not Good News.

That's not the Gospel.

Fix your eyes on Christ.

-JGIG

Yes! You must obey God in order to receive His grace. Yes, it is a gift, but He only gives the gift to those who obey Him. Our obedience does not earn it, but the obedient are the group of people He chooses to give it to. "Not everyone who calls Me Lord will enter heaven, but only those who DO the will of My Father." Do not be deceived. Satan wants everyone to think there is nothing to do on our part, but we must do God's will- which is obey His commands. Why would He have commands if we didn't need to follow them?

If what you say is true then the Cross was a waste of time.

The first three chapters of Romans contradict your view, and Romans 11:6 says this:

6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.​

The will of the Father is this:

40 " For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
( - Jesus, from John 6)​

Believe and live \o/!

-JGIG

 

[PeterJens]

PeterJens,

I find it interesting that you chose the word "kill" it seems you used this word to be inflammatory.

I have already posted how I see what happened to Ananias and Sapphira. Scripture shows clearly they were believers and they suffered the consequence of choosing death and sin.

Having said that, if God gives life then He can take it if He sees fit to do so, although if I should die tomorrow I do not think I would look at it as if God is killing me, He gives life and He can take life He has authority to do so, this it is not killing.

I think killing is what happens between people, we do not the create life so we have not authority to take life, people do kill others sadly, but not God.

kill - inflammatory. Let me look at the other words one could use.
Murder - killing without due cause
Allow to die - they were going to die, it was just allowed
Executed - killing with just cause

I think this is the selection I could have chosen. Now which would be the
best description you would have chosen?

If I wanted to be inflammatory I would have said executed.

 

[PeterJens]

Aaron’s sons Nadab and Abihu took their censers, put fire in them and added incense; and they offered unauthorized fire before the Lord, contrary to his command. So fire came out from the presence of the Lord and consumed them, and they died before the Lord.
Lev 10:1-2

It struck me suddenly that those who declare they are not something, are usually
exactly that. Now most clearly people say they are not condemned or lost, and they
are not religious or bound by law.

Yet if I suggest God judges His people, I am a unbeliever to be marked out, to be cast
out into the wildnerness etc. In effect thrown into hell.

So it is obvious the ethical precepts are offend someone in the group, no matter how
small and you are now not saved, or ever have been saved, and should be treated with
disdain. This is so religious, so much standing on the other side of the street.

Its emotional impact is also clear. It is also clear that because the law and legalism is
such an issue, desiring not to be legalistic, you become ultra legalistic but only in the
condemnation sense.

Now for me the focus is love and acceptance. It is clear you have serious problems
with God and judgement, and also with loving those you call legalists. This thread
clarifies all of this.

Now if you can find Jesus, the cross, and simple love here, halleluyah and amen.

Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight.
Prov 3:5-6

So though you say you are not religious, you actually are, and it is demonstrated
by all your rules as to what is acceptable to say, believe and do. But then when
you rebuke everyone else as failing and you alone carrying the light, you have a
very high claim, which continually as this thread demonstrates fail to hold to.

 

[PeterJens]

What I stand against is that you preach that God KILLS HIS OWN CHILDREN as punishment for their sins.

This is an interesting question?

Because I would be wrong to say God, the creator of the universe does let everyone die from
illness in one form or another.

Many here agree Ananias and wife died at the hands for God.
Paul says people died because they took communion in an unworthy manner.

That is the extent of what I have agreed to.

But you have no care to be fair or specific about you stand.
So I have done nothing wrong, or sinned, yet you treat me as if I have.

Ofcourse in your theology no matter how badly you treat me, you are already
forgiven. So there is the irony, it does not matter to you at all...

I also find it ironic that those who claim it is God who saves and keeps us must
mark out and stand against others, when by their faith it is God who does this.

Must be that terrible flesh speaking again, lol. But then the joke is as scripture
no longer really matters, you can make up whatever keeps you happy.

 

[PeterJens]

In case people did not notice, most accept God does judge His people.

The problem is hyper cannot accept this, because all future sin is already forgiven
so how could God judge their sin, ie there is no consequences to face no matter
what they do.