DOES HUMAN NATURE VANISH AS SOON AS WE ARE BORN AGAIN?

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Why is it better to use another avenue than whatGod has given? You don't have a better way, because your human nature isstanding in the way. What on earth would make you think that I quit relying onthe Truth? Good grief man. What are you accusing me of? Thereit is again, re-defining what I said. You're like a politician when aquestion is asked, and then the politician says, "The question is"and then answers the question he asked instead of the original question thatwas stated. You must think that I don't value the Truth. Read and understandwhat I'm saying. You're like so many other people that I have known. Justmention the Law in the aspect of how God wants us to Spiritually discern it,and then all of a sudden those who endorse as valuable have suddenly lost sightof salvation and are destined to hell, because they are trying to be justifiedby works according to your accusations. Get over it and see the truth, asit was intended form the beginning. Please, I say this because I'mconcerned about your Spiritual understanding. You might be walking onthin ice.

Just-me,

Honestly, I don't know what you believe. You seem to say one thing one moment, then something altogether different another. So please excuse if some of us can't really tell where you're coming from, or what you actually believe.

Here's where I'm coming from (and from what I've gathered, Grandpa probably does too). I find people's fixation on the law of Moses bizarre. I rarely think about the law of Moses. My thoughts, instead, focus on the one who is alive, and what the still small voice of his spirit is saying. I pay attention to the thoughts in my own mind, and seek how to stop every one that interferes with love and faith. To my understanding, the law of Moses is so gross compared to the excellencies of the spirit that sanctifies every aspect of one's being.

So really, we who see this way, consider those who focus on the elementary things that point to the reality, instead of the reality itself, to be walking in something other than clear light.

 

[just-me]

You don't understand what you are doing. You think you were given the Law so that you might remove your "human nature".

I'm walking on thin ice... Pretty soon there will be no ice and I will be walking on the water straight to my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. By not taking my eyes off of Him. Straight is the Way and narrow is the Path and few there be that find it.

While you are still studying your law and trying to remove your human nature by your own works and understanding. How is that working out for you, btw?

I know what the Law is, I know what its for, and I know what happens when you study it.
I know who Jesus Christ is, I know who He came for, and I know what happens when you study Him.

You don't think there is a demarcation. You think it is a blend. I'm telling you there is no blend. A little leaven leavens the whole lump.

If you can't blend God with Christ or blend the Old Testament with the New Testament, all having come from Him, then you don't know much about salvation. End of conversation.

 

[RedTent]

Grandpa: While you are still studying your law and trying to remove your human nature by your own works and understanding. How is that working out for you, btw?

It isn't "my" law, it is God's law. How is deciding you will not work or understand working out for you?

 

[just-me]

Just-me,

Honestly, I don't know what you believe. You seem to say one thing one moment, then something altogether different another. So please excuse if some of us can't really tell where you're coming from, or what you actually believe.

Here's where I'm coming from (and from what I've gathered, Grandpa probably does too). I find people's fixation on the law of Moses bizarre. I rarely think about the law of Moses. My thoughts, instead, focus on the one who is alive, and what the still small voice of his spirit is saying. I pay attention to the thoughts in my own mind, and seek how to stop every one that interferes with love and faith. To my understanding, the law of Moses is so gross compared to the excellencies of the spirit that sanctifies every aspect of one's being.

So really, we who see this way, consider those who focus on the elementary things that point to the reality, instead of the reality itself, to be walking in something other than clear light.

I intend to focus on all of the Word of God, including the value of the Mosaic Law. If you see a problem with that, as others see it, then my observation is that you want to see our Savior in a limited way. Your choice. But if that is your choice, I'm very sorry that you do not desire to see a greater picture of our wonderful Savior, that is sure to be there, if you wanted to find out. Why would you want to neglect the Law Jesus gave to Moses?


Colossians 1:12-17 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Luke 4:2-4 (KJV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

 

[RedTent]

Just-me,

Honestly, I don't know what you believe. You seem to say one thing one moment, then something altogether different another. So please excuse if some of us can't really tell where you're coming from, or what you actually believe.

Here's where I'm coming from (and from what I've gathered, Grandpa probably does too). I find people's fixation on the law of Moses bizarre. I rarely think about the law of Moses. My thoughts, instead, focus on the one who is alive, and what the still small voice of his spirit is saying. I pay attention to the thoughts in my own mind, and seek how to stop every one that interferes with love and faith. To my understanding, the law of Moses is so gross compared to the excellencies of the spirit that sanctifies every aspect of one's being.

So really, we who see this way, consider those who focus on the elementary things that point to the reality, instead of the reality itself, to be walking in something other than clear light.

It is more bizarre to eliminate the law of Moses from your mind and understanding. That is closing your mind to what God wants you to understand. If your thoughts were truly fixed on Christ, that would lead you to the Father, but you are putting up a barrier to completion of God in you. To say that something of God, something that expresses how God operates, is gross cannot be a thought that comes from God, but from forces that are fighting God. God would never say He, Himself, is gross. The law of Moses is scripture, God breathed scripture. We are to learn from scripture.

 

[just-me]

You don't understand what you are doing. You think you were given the Law so that you might remove your "human nature".

I'm walking on thin ice... Pretty soon there will be no ice and I will be walking on the water straight to my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. By not taking my eyes off of Him. Straight is the Way and narrow is the Path and few there be that find it.

While you are still studying your law and trying to remove your human nature by your own works and understanding. How is that working out for you, btw?

I know what the Law is, I know what its for, and I know what happens when you study it.
I know who Jesus Christ is, I know who He came for, and I know what happens when you study Him.

You don't think there is a demarcation. You think it is a blend. I'm telling you there is no blend. A little leaven leavens the whole lump.

Human nature in its fullness. You come to an understanding with my wife, and I was very happy that you understood, in a complete way as things were defined and accepted, and even a congratulating response of acceptance and understanding. Then in the same day you tell me that I don't understand what I'm doing. Evidently you can't get your head wrapped around the fact that my wife and I have Spiritually grown together with the same beliefs for over 40 years. Wow!

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I intend to focus on all of the Word of God, including the value of the Mosaic Law. If you see a problem with that, as others see it, then my observation is that you want to see our Savior in a limited way. Your choice. But if that is your choice, I'm very sorry that you do not desire to see a greater picture of our wonderful Savior, that is sure to be there, if you wanted to find out. Why would you want to neglect the Law Jesus gave to Moses?

I greatly value what the OT has to say, and consider it a great treasure. That's not the point. The point is mixing faith with law.

 

[just-me]

I greatly value what the OT has to say, and consider it a great treasure. That's not the point. The point is mixing faith with law.

Why not? King David did.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

It isn't "my" law, it is God's law. How is deciding you will not work or understand working out for you?

But Jesus didn't call it HIS law. He told the pharisees that it was THEIR law.

It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. John 8:17

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? John 10:34
​

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Why not? King David did.

David lived under law, but lived by faith. You are not even under the law and you want to live under it. Like I said before, bizarre...

 

[just-me]

David lived under law, but lived by faith. You are not even under the law and you want to live under it. Like I said before, bizarre...

So David was a man after God's own heart, and still lived by faith. I agree. Did I say that being like David, mixing faith with the law, automatically puts me under the law or even wanting to be there? Who in the world would want a curse upon themselves? The law is for the lawless and how can lawless person be blessed by God. I thought faith put an individual in a position of no longer being under the curse thereof. David wasn't cursed by the law. The reason he loved it was because he could see the great benefits to him as an individual. Read Psalm 22, and you will clearly see what he saw. The law is not a curse in the least when we walk by faith. Wow! what a revelation!

 

[just-me]

But Jesus didn't call it HIS law. He told the pharisees that it was THEIR law.

It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. John 8:17

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? John 10:34
​

Jesus is talking to the Pharisees who made there own law from the original Mosaic Law because of their human nature. They wanted laws that met their wants rather than God's. Those that deny the truth in the law, are also of the same mind whether they know it or not. The Pharisees had distorted it, and re-written it, according to their own liking. Why do you think Jesus had a problem with them? If Jesus said that He and the Father are one, and the Father gave Moses the law, why in the world would Jesus have a problem with the truth found in the law if His own Father had written it? Come on man. You know better than that.

 

[just-us-2]

Psalm 1:1-3 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

So David was a man after God's own heart, and still lived by faith. I agree. Did I say that being like David, mixing faith with the law, automatically puts me under the law or even wanting to be there? Who in the world would want a curse upon themselves? The law is for the lawless and how can lawless person be blessed by God. I thought faith put an individual in a position of no longer being under the curse thereof. David wasn't cursed by the law. The reason he loved it was because he could see the great benefits to him as an individual. Read Psalm 22, and you will clearly see what he saw. The law is not a curse in the least when we walk by faith. Wow! what a revelation!

See, this is the kind of confusion you sow. First you say 'why not [mix faith with law]? King David did'. Then you say, 'Did I say that being like David, mixing faith with the law, automatically puts me under the law or even wanting to be there?'

I'm sorry. I can't follow the way you think...

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Jesus is talking to the Pharisees who made there own law from the original Mosaic Law because of their human nature. They wanted laws that met their wants rather than God's. Those that deny the truth in the law, are also of the same mind whether they know it or not. The Pharisees had distorted it, and re-written it, according to their own liking. Why do you think Jesus had a problem with them? If Jesus said that He and the Father are one, and the Father gave Moses the law, why in the world would Jesus have a problem with the truth found in the law if His own Father had written it? Come on man. You know better than that.

No he wasn't talking about the oral law. You're just repeating what someone has told you. He was clearly referring to the OT.

Jesus said this:

It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. John 8:17
​

referring to this:

At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death. Deuteronomy 17:6
​

And he said this:

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? John 10:34
​

referring to this:

I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. Psalms 82:6
​

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Jesus told the pharisees that the law of Moses was their law because that law was made for the first Adam.

Jesus is the second Adam, an entirely new creation over whom the law of Moses holds no authority.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't see the profit in deciding to close your mind to learning from scripture with the idea that you don't have to look into such as the 600 to explore God's principles because you have everything with the word love. I don't think that knowing that the basic law is love, all law expresses it, means it is best to then not see how God means that to play out.

I don't think you see. God says the law is written into our heart. Not to mention, having studied the law. I know it. My point was not that we should not study or know it, But that we do not have to focus on it. That is quite a big difference.

As for the law of love. As I showed, that is how we obey the law. Scripture even supports this.

We love because he first loved us, And ALL the law is contained in these two commands.

I think any time we say we are so smart, that we have everything of God in one portion of scripture, we are missing the mark. That is what people do when they say the law is all. That is what people do when they say love is all.

God said love is all. that is fine with me.

[SUP]36 [/SUP]“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” [SUP]37 [/SUP]And He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ [SUP]38 [/SUP]This is the great and [SUP][o][/SUP]foremost commandment. [SUP]39 [/SUP]The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ [SUP]40 [/SUP]On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

The greek word depend means to hang, or to hang on. All the law hangs on these two commands. Obey them and you will obey the law.

The reason church people fail to grow is not only because they focus on law. It is because they focus on one aspect of the Lord, any one aspect, and ignore the whole of God's message. That can be as simple as interpreting the meaning of one verse without seeing how it fits in with all of God's ways.

Thats is not what I have witnessed for over 40 years now

It is not fair to do this by seeing how people focusing on law are missing the mark without seeing how people focusing on other aspects of God while ignoring other aspects are missing the mark.

Its not fair? I have seen it, it would be one thing if I ever found a church which focused on this and this was not true. But I have never seen it!

 

[just-me]

Jesus told the pharisees that the law of Moses was their law because that law was made for the first Adam.

Jesus is the second Adam, an entirely new creation over whom the law of Moses holds no authority.

You're preaching to the choir. I will never dispute the "new creation."

2 Corinthians 5:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Law and faith really do go together if a person understands that it's more than condemnation after we are born again. The law can be used to identify human nature and ask God, through Jesus Christ, to slice away those things that are identifiable by the law. The curse of the law is death. The shedding of blood is death. The sacrifice is made so the judgment of the curse is taken away. Why would we not want to identify with this education in order to glorify Christ in a greater way because we understand greater things. I don't boast that I am without sin. I didn't make sin vanish by the law, Christ did. Why would I so flagrantly neglect the God given schoolmaster to enable me to come to Christ daily and confess those sins that I have learned about through the law?
1 John 1:8-10 (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

I have just defined the law of liberty.

1 Corinthians 15:31 (KJV)
[SUP]31 [/SUP]I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

Romans 3:22-27 (KJV) [SUP]22 [/SUP]Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
[SUP]26 [/SUP]To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

That's like the King David thing. I suppose this is the best I can do to explain...... The law identifies sin, and the will of God, along with a greater understanding of the sacrifice of Christ Jesus for our sins. It also identifies the punishments for breaking it........... in detail. We are to be a living sacrifice unto God, which correlates with temple worship. We are the temple now through faith. It all happens daily inside of us through faith. It is a justifying thing, ya know? The details can be seen more clearly, if we by faith incorporate these shadows of the law with the New. Faith and law, God and Jesus, judgment and love..... they are all in the ONE single Word of God together. Hope you can understand my faith, and my hope.

1 Peter 3:15 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

 

[just-me]

See, this is the kind of confusion you sow. First you say 'why not [mix faith with law]? King David did'. Then you say, 'Did I say that being like David, mixing faith with the law, automatically puts me under the law or even wanting to be there?'

I'm sorry. I can't follow the way you think...

1 Corinthians 14:33 (KJV)
[SUP]33 [/SUP]For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

 

[just-me]

No he wasn't talking about the oral law. You're just repeating what someone has told you. He was clearly referring to the OT.

Jesus said this:

It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. John 8:17
​

referring to this:

At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death. Deuteronomy 17:6
​

And he said this:

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? John 10:34
​

referring to this:

I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. Psalms 82:6
​

Commandments of God are very different than commandments of men. Let's put it all in context from the same mouth.
Matthew 15:4-9 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
[SUP]8 [/SUP]This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Could we still be making the commandment of God of none effect by our tradition?