Does original sin exist?
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A good name is better than precious ointment,
and the day of death than the day of birth.
(Ecclesiastes 7:1)
and the day of death than the day of birth.
(Ecclesiastes 7:1)
if man is destined to sin as long as he lives a year, but he is born sinless and perfect, you would be doing every human an enormous favor, saving them from death & hell, by ending their lives before they become condemnable.
of course i am not seriously arguing you should do it - because i think it is absolutely false that humans are born sinless.
i'm trying to get the point across what the implications of that lie are.
jaybird, just think about this:
why did Christ have to be born of a virgin?
read it again:
David is not talking about the time he was an adult and slept with another man's wife. he is talking about when he was conceived, and born.
what do you think, David only committed one sin, ever? David sure doesn't share that opinion. right here he is saying that he has been a sinner ever since he was born, even in the womb.
Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
(Psalm 51:5)
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
(Psalm 51:5)
David is not talking about the time he was an adult and slept with another man's wife. he is talking about when he was conceived, and born.
what do you think, David only committed one sin, ever? David sure doesn't share that opinion. right here he is saying that he has been a sinner ever since he was born, even in the womb.
J
in theory yes it makes perfect sense. but IMO its more complicated than that. dying at birth might prevent you from choosing sin but also prevents you from choosing righteousness over sin. we have to go through the tests of life with our free will and make the right choices and get back to that childlike state.
Mt 18 3
and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
the theory is that the virgin birth was a loophole around the original sin. its a good argument. it may be correct but i dont agree. IMO the Most High creates us neutral and we have the free will to choose between right and wrong.
IMO the virgin birth was because the Father of Jesus was the Most High and not a man of this world.
Mt 18 3
and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
the theory is that the virgin birth was a loophole around the original sin. its a good argument. it may be correct but i dont agree. IMO the Most High creates us neutral and we have the free will to choose between right and wrong.
IMO the virgin birth was because the Father of Jesus was the Most High and not a man of this world.
What is all the fuss about? Do you not understand being born of the flesh, the flesh
being at enmity to God, and your need to be born again of the Holy Spirit of God in
order to attain to life ever after? The flesh counts for nothing. What does that mean to you?
Babies are born just as selfish and self centered as anyone. With babies it is expected,
that they make demands for their needs to be met, for they have no means to care for
their own selves, being totally dependent upon the time and attention of others for their
very sustenance. However, every single person goes astray in some way. None are righteous.
Every single person is born in need of a Savior.
being at enmity to God, and your need to be born again of the Holy Spirit of God in
order to attain to life ever after? The flesh counts for nothing. What does that mean to you?
Babies are born just as selfish and self centered as anyone. With babies it is expected,
that they make demands for their needs to be met, for they have no means to care for
their own selves, being totally dependent upon the time and attention of others for their
very sustenance. However, every single person goes astray in some way. None are righteous.
Every single person is born in need of a Savior.
W
Flesh is sarx, nothing more nothing less, it covers the bones of the carton whereas the soul is housed..God is at enmity with the sinful lusts of the flesh, NOT the flesh itself...By the way young children are not at the age of accountability yet..This is first seen in Gen 4; "in the process of time" both Cain and Able as PROVCREATED beings were to be now accountable before God.....It says man is evil from his youth....Every time |youth| is used in scripture it speaks of a young adult, never once does is speak of children or babies...Example: David slayed Goliath from his youth.....
W
From his youth, Geneses 8-2, Part 1
An exact study of "youth" in the bible will dispel any myths that it means at birth, infants, or small children. But rather from the age of moral accountability to the amount of knowledge given. The first time we see this term in the text is in Geneses 8-21. This by no means is saying man is born in sin like the vast majority of Pundits proclaim, because the evidence is clearly identifiable in scripture as to its real meaning. This study will be rather short, precise, conclusive, and quick to the point by using scripture as its own dictionary defining “youth”, especially “from youth”. Youth occurs 70 times in the text, and never once is it describing infants or small children.
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[TD]Genesis 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savor; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more everything living, as I have done.
Let’s examine other scriptures using "youth" and we will clearly see that it is not speaking of children or infants.
Genesis 46:34 That ye shall say, Thy servants' trade hath been about cattle from our youth even until now, both we, and also our fathers: that ye may dwell in the land of Goshen; for every shepherd is an abomination unto the Egyptians.
This verse is clearly speaking of young adolescents forward, whereas Joseph would have them not ashamed to own this as their occupation before Pharaoh. Infants do not tend cattle.
Leviticus 22:13 But if the priest's daughter be a widow, or divorced, and have no child, and is returned unto her father's house, as in her youth, she shall eat of her father's meat: but there shall be no stranger eat thereof.
Numbers 30:3 If a woman also vow a vow unto the LORD, and bind herself by a bond, being in her father's house in her youth;
Once again, obviously not childhood or infants
Numbers 30:16 These are the statutes, which the LORD commanded Moses, between a man and his wife, between the father and his daughter, being yet in her youth in her father's house.
Infants and small children don't have the capability of understanding Moses commandments. Thus, this means adolescent youth or the age of accountability. The age of understanding, each to his/her measure.
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[TD]Judges 8:20 And he said unto Jether his firstborn, Up, and slay them. But the youth drew not his sword: for he feared, because he was yet a youth.
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[TD]1 Samuel 17:33 And Saul said to David, Thou art not able to go against this Philistine to fight with him: for thou art but a youth, and he a man of war from his youth.
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[TD]1 Samuel 17:42 And when the Philistine looked about, and saw David, he disdained him: for he was but a youth, and ruddy, and of a fair countenance.
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[TD]1 Samuel 17:55 An Leviticus 22:13 But if the priest's daughter be a widow, or divorced, and have no child, and is returned unto her father's house, as in her youth, she shall eat of her father's meat: but there shall be no stranger eat thereof.
Numbers 30:3 If a woman also vow a vow unto the LORD, and bind herself by a bond, being in her father's house in her youth;d when Saul saw David go forth against the Philistine, he said unto Abner, the captain of the host, Abner, whose son is this youth? And Abner said, As thy soul liveth, O king, I cannot tell.
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[TD]2 Samuel 19:7 Now therefore arise, go forth, and speak comfortably unto thy servants: for I swear by the LORD, if thou go not forth, there will not tarry one with thee this night: and that will be worse unto thee than all the evil that befell thee from thy youth until now.
All of these verses speaking of David fighting Goliath in his youth. Not a child nor and infant could fight Goliath. According to scripture, David was approx. 22 when he defeated Goliath. David also declares that when a lion or bear came and attacked his father's sheep, he battled against it and killed it. This while still in his youth. Babies and young children do not fight wild animals..
1 Kings 18:12 And it shall come to pass, as soon as I am gone from thee, that the Spirit of the LORD shall carry thee whither I know not; and so when I come and tell Ahab, and he cannot find thee, he shall slay me: but I thy servant fear the LORD from my youth.
Babies and small children are not what’s being spoken of here concerning Elijah's fear of the LORD.
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[TD]Job 13:26 For thou writest bitter things against me, and makest me to possess the iniquities of my youth.
Job, past the age of accountability, acknowledges the sins of his youth, and he perceives that his present afflictions may be for his former sins. It is not necessarily to be supposed that he looks back on gross youthful sins that would keep one form inheriting the kingdom, for scripture says that Job was upright and a righteous man} therefore having not fallen into the lustful sins that disqualify one from the kingdom listed in Romans 1:28-31.
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[TD]Job 20:11 His bones are full of the sin of his youth, which shall lie down with him in the dust.
His bones are full of the sin of his youth - The words "of the sin" in the KJV are italicized and added by the translators. It doesn’t mean he was born in sin. Chapter 20 is spoken by Zophar the Naamathite and details the wretchedness of the wicked and the hypocrite, not the righteous. And we know that God said Job was righteous in chapter 1. Zophar, like today’s collective conscience in Churchianity, is by assumption proclaiming all men are wicked and born that way. Of course this is not true.
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[TD]Job 29:4 As I was in the days of my youth, when the secret of God was upon my tabernacle;
The word here rendered "youth" as being the time when fruits are gathered. Remember back to Cain and Abel, when “in the process of time” (maturity) they both brought the first fruits of their work to God in Gen. 4. From his youth means that which is mature in accountability; and the meaning here is a "mature conscience”
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[TD]Job 30:12 Upon my right hand rise the youth; they push away my feet, and they raise up against me the ways of their destruction. {These sins of the wicked from their youth rise up and mar the path, thus destroying the way of righteousness} They were children of fools, children of debased men: they were viler than the earth.
The word rendered "youth" (פרחח pirchach) occurs nowhere else in the Hebrew Scriptures. It is probably from פרח pârach, "to sprout, germinate, blossom"; and hence, would mean "a progeny," and would be probably applied to beasts.
The right hand is the place of honor, and therefore it was felt to be a greater insult that they should occupy even that place.
The idea then is, that this rabble rose up, even on his right hand, as a brood of wild animals - a mere rabble that impeded his way. Albert Barnes
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[TD]Job 31:18 (For from my youth he was brought up with me, as with a father, and I have guided her from my mother's womb
The word פרחח pirchach, which we translate youth, signifies properly buds, or the buttons of trees. Adam Clark
Hebrew, young striplings. Those who formerly hid themselves from my presence, Albert Barnes
These sins from our youth rise up and mar the path, thus destroying the way, tripping us up cast us down to the ground.
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[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Job 33:25 His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth: {In contest, Job did not return to an infant, but to the same healthful body which he once had in his youth. He would be restored once again to healthful fatality of his youth. The calamity which that had been brought upon him would be removed. Job went on to sire another family of 10 after God restored him, and raised all of them to the age of accountability. I would suppose Job lived to be over 200, and lived in the era somewhere between Peleg and Terah.}
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[TD]Job 36:14 They die in youth, and their life is among the unclean.
They die in youth - Exactly what the psalmist says, "Bloody and deceitful men shall not live out half their days," Psalm 55:23. Literally, the words of Elihu are, "They shall die in the youth of their soul."
Their life is among the unclean - בקדשים bakedeshim, among the prostitutes, harlots, and lustful males, and sodomites. In this sense the word is used, though it also signifies consecrated persons; but we know that in idolatry characters of this kind were consecrated to Baal and Ashtaroth, Venus, Priapus, etc.
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[TD]Psalms 25:7 Remember not the sins of my youth, nor my transgressions: according to thy mercy remember thou me for thy goodness' sake, O LORD.
To sin is to transgress the law, one must have knowledge of sin, Romans 7:7,8,9. David had knowledge of his sin from his youth, not as an infant in the womb, or when he was born out of the womb. Nobody has knowledge of sin when they were born. Remember, David also fought Goliath in his youth.
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[TD]Psalms 71:5 For thou art my hope, O Lord GOD: thou art my trust from my youth.
Babies and young children are not yet capable of putting their trust in the Lord through complete obedience.
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[/TR]
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[TD]Psalms 71:17 O God, thou hast taught me from my youth: and hitherto have I declared thy wondrous works.
[/TD]
[/TR]
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[TD]Psalms 88:15 I am afflicted and ready to die from my youth up: while I suffer thy terrors I am distracted. {an infant is not ready to die because of sorrow and trouble brought about by sin}
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[TD]Psalms 89:45 The days of his youth hast thou shortened: thou hast covered him with shame. Selah.
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Psalms 103:5 Who satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth is renewed like the eagle's.
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[TD]Psalms 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
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[TD]Psalms 127:4 As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth.
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[TD]Psalms 129:1 Many a time have they afflicted me from my youth, may Israel now say:
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[TD]Psalms 129:2 Many a time have they afflicted me from my youth: yet they have not prevailed against me.
{These two verses use the term "from youth". The same meaning as Gen 8-21 "from his youth". They are most explicitly found in the term "from youth" in Psalms 129-1,2 Psalms 71: 5 & 17, Psalms 88:15 , Psalms 129:2, Isaiah 47:12 & 15, Jeremiah 22-21, Jeremiah 32-30, Jeremiah 48-11, Ezekiel 4:14, Zechariah 13:5, Matthew 19:20, Mark 10:20, Luke 18:21, Acts 26-4 }
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[TD]Psalms 144:12 That our sons may be as plants grown up in their youth; that our daughters may be as corner stones, polished after the similitude of a palace:
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It’s is quite clear that none of these verses are speaking about the stage of infancy. Then why to Pundits try to force Geneses 8-21 to mean from the womb in infancy? I say nay, may God forbid such heresies!
Conclusion
This is why the Bible keeps saying that we will be Judged according to our Deeds, NOT according to what Jesus did on the Cross! The DEEDS of faithfulness to God's Commands, because under Grace you have our Past sins are remitted and the power/grace given to live a godly life in Christ, so we have no excuse to violate the Moral laws of God that makes us accountable for our deeds done at the Judgment
5b the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile.10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:11 For there is no respect of persons with God. Romans 2:5b-11
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.Rev22:12-15
It's a LIE to tell people they can be Saved by: 'Repeating some words, accepting Jesus or trusting in what He did', It's also a Lie to imply they have no ability to produce deeds worthy of repentance and come clean with God. And the greatest lie is to encourage them to believe that their Sins are Paid for and forgiven while they are still immersed in them daily!
Willie
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An exact study of "youth" in the bible will dispel any myths that it means at birth, infants, or small children. But rather from the age of moral accountability to the amount of knowledge given. The first time we see this term in the text is in Geneses 8-21. This by no means is saying man is born in sin like the vast majority of Pundits proclaim, because the evidence is clearly identifiable in scripture as to its real meaning. This study will be rather short, precise, conclusive, and quick to the point by using scripture as its own dictionary defining “youth”, especially “from youth”. Youth occurs 70 times in the text, and never once is it describing infants or small children.
[TABLE="width: 100"]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][TABLE="width: 100"]
[TR]
[TD]Genesis 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savor; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more everything living, as I have done.
Let’s examine other scriptures using "youth" and we will clearly see that it is not speaking of children or infants.
Genesis 46:34 That ye shall say, Thy servants' trade hath been about cattle from our youth even until now, both we, and also our fathers: that ye may dwell in the land of Goshen; for every shepherd is an abomination unto the Egyptians.
This verse is clearly speaking of young adolescents forward, whereas Joseph would have them not ashamed to own this as their occupation before Pharaoh. Infants do not tend cattle.
Leviticus 22:13 But if the priest's daughter be a widow, or divorced, and have no child, and is returned unto her father's house, as in her youth, she shall eat of her father's meat: but there shall be no stranger eat thereof.
Numbers 30:3 If a woman also vow a vow unto the LORD, and bind herself by a bond, being in her father's house in her youth;
Once again, obviously not childhood or infants
Numbers 30:16 These are the statutes, which the LORD commanded Moses, between a man and his wife, between the father and his daughter, being yet in her youth in her father's house.
Infants and small children don't have the capability of understanding Moses commandments. Thus, this means adolescent youth or the age of accountability. The age of understanding, each to his/her measure.
[TABLE="width: 100"]
[TR]
[TD]Judges 8:20 And he said unto Jether his firstborn, Up, and slay them. But the youth drew not his sword: for he feared, because he was yet a youth.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1 Samuel 17:33 And Saul said to David, Thou art not able to go against this Philistine to fight with him: for thou art but a youth, and he a man of war from his youth.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1 Samuel 17:42 And when the Philistine looked about, and saw David, he disdained him: for he was but a youth, and ruddy, and of a fair countenance.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1 Samuel 17:55 An Leviticus 22:13 But if the priest's daughter be a widow, or divorced, and have no child, and is returned unto her father's house, as in her youth, she shall eat of her father's meat: but there shall be no stranger eat thereof.
Numbers 30:3 If a woman also vow a vow unto the LORD, and bind herself by a bond, being in her father's house in her youth;d when Saul saw David go forth against the Philistine, he said unto Abner, the captain of the host, Abner, whose son is this youth? And Abner said, As thy soul liveth, O king, I cannot tell.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2 Samuel 19:7 Now therefore arise, go forth, and speak comfortably unto thy servants: for I swear by the LORD, if thou go not forth, there will not tarry one with thee this night: and that will be worse unto thee than all the evil that befell thee from thy youth until now.
All of these verses speaking of David fighting Goliath in his youth. Not a child nor and infant could fight Goliath. According to scripture, David was approx. 22 when he defeated Goliath. David also declares that when a lion or bear came and attacked his father's sheep, he battled against it and killed it. This while still in his youth. Babies and young children do not fight wild animals..
1 Kings 18:12 And it shall come to pass, as soon as I am gone from thee, that the Spirit of the LORD shall carry thee whither I know not; and so when I come and tell Ahab, and he cannot find thee, he shall slay me: but I thy servant fear the LORD from my youth.
Babies and small children are not what’s being spoken of here concerning Elijah's fear of the LORD.
[TABLE="width: 100"]
[TR]
[TD]Job 13:26 For thou writest bitter things against me, and makest me to possess the iniquities of my youth.
Job, past the age of accountability, acknowledges the sins of his youth, and he perceives that his present afflictions may be for his former sins. It is not necessarily to be supposed that he looks back on gross youthful sins that would keep one form inheriting the kingdom, for scripture says that Job was upright and a righteous man} therefore having not fallen into the lustful sins that disqualify one from the kingdom listed in Romans 1:28-31.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Job 20:11 His bones are full of the sin of his youth, which shall lie down with him in the dust.
His bones are full of the sin of his youth - The words "of the sin" in the KJV are italicized and added by the translators. It doesn’t mean he was born in sin. Chapter 20 is spoken by Zophar the Naamathite and details the wretchedness of the wicked and the hypocrite, not the righteous. And we know that God said Job was righteous in chapter 1. Zophar, like today’s collective conscience in Churchianity, is by assumption proclaiming all men are wicked and born that way. Of course this is not true.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Job 29:4 As I was in the days of my youth, when the secret of God was upon my tabernacle;
The word here rendered "youth" as being the time when fruits are gathered. Remember back to Cain and Abel, when “in the process of time” (maturity) they both brought the first fruits of their work to God in Gen. 4. From his youth means that which is mature in accountability; and the meaning here is a "mature conscience”
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Job 30:12 Upon my right hand rise the youth; they push away my feet, and they raise up against me the ways of their destruction. {These sins of the wicked from their youth rise up and mar the path, thus destroying the way of righteousness} They were children of fools, children of debased men: they were viler than the earth.
The word rendered "youth" (פרחח pirchach) occurs nowhere else in the Hebrew Scriptures. It is probably from פרח pârach, "to sprout, germinate, blossom"; and hence, would mean "a progeny," and would be probably applied to beasts.
The right hand is the place of honor, and therefore it was felt to be a greater insult that they should occupy even that place.
The idea then is, that this rabble rose up, even on his right hand, as a brood of wild animals - a mere rabble that impeded his way. Albert Barnes
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Job 31:18 (For from my youth he was brought up with me, as with a father, and I have guided her from my mother's womb
The word פרחח pirchach, which we translate youth, signifies properly buds, or the buttons of trees. Adam Clark
Hebrew, young striplings. Those who formerly hid themselves from my presence, Albert Barnes
These sins from our youth rise up and mar the path, thus destroying the way, tripping us up cast us down to the ground.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Job 33:25 His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth: {In contest, Job did not return to an infant, but to the same healthful body which he once had in his youth. He would be restored once again to healthful fatality of his youth. The calamity which that had been brought upon him would be removed. Job went on to sire another family of 10 after God restored him, and raised all of them to the age of accountability. I would suppose Job lived to be over 200, and lived in the era somewhere between Peleg and Terah.}
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Job 36:14 They die in youth, and their life is among the unclean.
They die in youth - Exactly what the psalmist says, "Bloody and deceitful men shall not live out half their days," Psalm 55:23. Literally, the words of Elihu are, "They shall die in the youth of their soul."
Their life is among the unclean - בקדשים bakedeshim, among the prostitutes, harlots, and lustful males, and sodomites. In this sense the word is used, though it also signifies consecrated persons; but we know that in idolatry characters of this kind were consecrated to Baal and Ashtaroth, Venus, Priapus, etc.
[TABLE="width: 100"]
[TR]
[TD]Psalms 25:7 Remember not the sins of my youth, nor my transgressions: according to thy mercy remember thou me for thy goodness' sake, O LORD.
To sin is to transgress the law, one must have knowledge of sin, Romans 7:7,8,9. David had knowledge of his sin from his youth, not as an infant in the womb, or when he was born out of the womb. Nobody has knowledge of sin when they were born. Remember, David also fought Goliath in his youth.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Psalms 71:5 For thou art my hope, O Lord GOD: thou art my trust from my youth.
Babies and young children are not yet capable of putting their trust in the Lord through complete obedience.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Psalms 71:17 O God, thou hast taught me from my youth: and hitherto have I declared thy wondrous works.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Psalms 88:15 I am afflicted and ready to die from my youth up: while I suffer thy terrors I am distracted. {an infant is not ready to die because of sorrow and trouble brought about by sin}
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Psalms 89:45 The days of his youth hast thou shortened: thou hast covered him with shame. Selah.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Psalms 103:5 Who satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth is renewed like the eagle's.
[TABLE="width: 100"]
[TR]
[TD]Psalms 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Psalms 127:4 As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Psalms 129:1 Many a time have they afflicted me from my youth, may Israel now say:
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Psalms 129:2 Many a time have they afflicted me from my youth: yet they have not prevailed against me.
{These two verses use the term "from youth". The same meaning as Gen 8-21 "from his youth". They are most explicitly found in the term "from youth" in Psalms 129-1,2 Psalms 71: 5 & 17, Psalms 88:15 , Psalms 129:2, Isaiah 47:12 & 15, Jeremiah 22-21, Jeremiah 32-30, Jeremiah 48-11, Ezekiel 4:14, Zechariah 13:5, Matthew 19:20, Mark 10:20, Luke 18:21, Acts 26-4 }
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[TD]Psalms 144:12 That our sons may be as plants grown up in their youth; that our daughters may be as corner stones, polished after the similitude of a palace:
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It’s is quite clear that none of these verses are speaking about the stage of infancy. Then why to Pundits try to force Geneses 8-21 to mean from the womb in infancy? I say nay, may God forbid such heresies!
Conclusion
This is why the Bible keeps saying that we will be Judged according to our Deeds, NOT according to what Jesus did on the Cross! The DEEDS of faithfulness to God's Commands, because under Grace you have our Past sins are remitted and the power/grace given to live a godly life in Christ, so we have no excuse to violate the Moral laws of God that makes us accountable for our deeds done at the Judgment
5b the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile.10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:11 For there is no respect of persons with God. Romans 2:5b-11
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.Rev22:12-15
It's a LIE to tell people they can be Saved by: 'Repeating some words, accepting Jesus or trusting in what He did', It's also a Lie to imply they have no ability to produce deeds worthy of repentance and come clean with God. And the greatest lie is to encourage them to believe that their Sins are Paid for and forgiven while they are still immersed in them daily!
Willie
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fact:
cell death occurs in embryos, even before birth. human understanding is that it is a natural part of growth.
(citation: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8801138)
fact:
death is brought about by sin
question:
if death entered the world through sin, and all human flesh begins to die even before it is born, how can it be said that there is no "original sin" passed down to all men from one man?
if an infant - even an unborn child - has no sin within itself, why does death already reside in its body?
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praise God that through One life is passed to all who believe!!
cell death occurs in embryos, even before birth. human understanding is that it is a natural part of growth.
(citation: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8801138)
fact:
death is brought about by sin
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned
(Romans 5:12)
(Romans 5:12)
question:
if death entered the world through sin, and all human flesh begins to die even before it is born, how can it be said that there is no "original sin" passed down to all men from one man?
if an infant - even an unborn child - has no sin within itself, why does death already reside in its body?
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praise God that through One life is passed to all who believe!!
For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
(1 Corinthians 15:21)
(1 Corinthians 15:21)
Romans 5:12 is speaking of SPIRITUAL DEATH, not physical death.
Spiritual death came to all people because "all sinned."
An embryo cannot sin. That is quite absurd. Would you hold an embryo guilty for sinning? You have to suspend reason to believe such a thing.
Death through sin is spoken about by Paul in Romans 7 also...
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Is Paul speaking of physical death there? No. He is speaking of spiritual death wrought by yielding to sin. Sin takes occasion by the commandment becauseone needs the knowledge of the right way in order to rebel against it and choose the wrong way.
James put it like this...
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Temptation ----------------> Sin ------------------> Death.
This is exactly what happened with Eve...
Knowledge
Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Temptation
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof,
Transgression
...and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
That is what the Bible teaches.
Original Sin originated in the "forms" of Plato and was later developed by the Gnostics.
The danger of Original Sin is in the notion of "inability" due to the "flesh" being associated with wickedness. Thus under Original Sin people are compelled to argue in favour of ongoing wickedness (inability due to being unable to stop) whilst in a flesh body. Believe that and one is set up to swallow a false gospel message which has a provision for ongoing wickedness.
Spiritual death came to all people because "all sinned."
An embryo cannot sin. That is quite absurd. Would you hold an embryo guilty for sinning? You have to suspend reason to believe such a thing.
Death through sin is spoken about by Paul in Romans 7 also...
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Is Paul speaking of physical death there? No. He is speaking of spiritual death wrought by yielding to sin. Sin takes occasion by the commandment becauseone needs the knowledge of the right way in order to rebel against it and choose the wrong way.
James put it like this...
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Temptation ----------------> Sin ------------------> Death.
This is exactly what happened with Eve...
Knowledge
Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Temptation
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof,
Transgression
...and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
That is what the Bible teaches.
Original Sin originated in the "forms" of Plato and was later developed by the Gnostics.
The danger of Original Sin is in the notion of "inability" due to the "flesh" being associated with wickedness. Thus under Original Sin people are compelled to argue in favour of ongoing wickedness (inability due to being unable to stop) whilst in a flesh body. Believe that and one is set up to swallow a false gospel message which has a provision for ongoing wickedness.
Physical death is simply the result of being in mortal flesh. Jesus would have even grown old and succumbed to physical death if He were not murdered by the Jews.
In the garden the Tree of Life was the antidote to mortality...
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Therefore God kicked Adam and Eve out of the garden.
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Original Sin was accepted under orthodoxy through the influence of Augustine. Prior to Augustine the seeds were planted through the speculation of people like Tertullian, Ambrose etc. Even Tatian early on wrote about wickedness being physically inherited but he was denounced a heretic because such teaching was an anathema to Christianity at the time. It would take 400 years of the truth being watered down whereby the established orthodoxy would fall for it.
In the garden the Tree of Life was the antidote to mortality...
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Therefore God kicked Adam and Eve out of the garden.
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Original Sin was accepted under orthodoxy through the influence of Augustine. Prior to Augustine the seeds were planted through the speculation of people like Tertullian, Ambrose etc. Even Tatian early on wrote about wickedness being physically inherited but he was denounced a heretic because such teaching was an anathema to Christianity at the time. It would take 400 years of the truth being watered down whereby the established orthodoxy would fall for it.
is Paul talking about "spiritual resurrection" and NOT physical resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15?
And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.
But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
(1 Corinthians 15:17-22)
But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
(1 Corinthians 15:17-22)
just try jamming the idea that Paul is not talking about physical death and resurrection into that passage in any way shape or fashion, and see how consistent and true a position it leaves you in. it leaves you with the broken idea that Christ was only "spiritually resurrected" and that He only "spiritually died" doesn't it .. ?
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what Tatian's teachings were denounced for is that he taught all should remain celibate, saying that marriage and procreation was evil in and of itself, calling marriage fornication and corruption. maybe he arrived at this conclusion because sin is passed from generation to generation from Adam onward, but it was his condemnation of the institution of man and wife altogether that made him an heretic, not the ((scriptural)) idea that through one man, sin entered the world, and from sin, death.
this was another form of gnosticism, declaring everything non-spiritual to be inherently evil, and asceticism, teaching absolute abstinence from it, to the point of denying the goodness that God has created in this existence for us.
((citation: The Heresy of Tatian))
this was another form of gnosticism, declaring everything non-spiritual to be inherently evil, and asceticism, teaching absolute abstinence from it, to the point of denying the goodness that God has created in this existence for us.
((citation: The Heresy of Tatian))
this only shows that at least from an indeterminate, early age, the purposes of men's hearts are evil.
it does not show that this is the originating point in time; it is an upper bound on sin in mankind over time, not a lower bound.
it is like, you want to know what is the smallest possible substance, and you have found a grain of sand.
therefore you know that a substance can be at least as small as a grain of sand. from this you cannot conclude that there is nothing smaller than a grain of sand; likewise, you cannot conclude from the knowledge that at an indeterminate early age mans heart is evil, that it is not also evil beforehand.
when you discover the number 5, it does not mean that 5 is the smallest number. it means that 6 is not the smallest number. ¿comprende?
it does not show that this is the originating point in time; it is an upper bound on sin in mankind over time, not a lower bound.
it is like, you want to know what is the smallest possible substance, and you have found a grain of sand.
therefore you know that a substance can be at least as small as a grain of sand. from this you cannot conclude that there is nothing smaller than a grain of sand; likewise, you cannot conclude from the knowledge that at an indeterminate early age mans heart is evil, that it is not also evil beforehand.
when you discover the number 5, it does not mean that 5 is the smallest number. it means that 6 is not the smallest number. ¿comprende?
Don't eat the fruit, you will die.... Ate the fruit... died... disobedience...
Does disobedience to G-d's commands still exist?
Yes!!!!
Do we die?....
We can either die in our sin, or have Y-shua stand in place of it... either way we do the original sin... disobedience...
That's why we need a Savior!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Does disobedience to G-d's commands still exist?
Yes!!!!
Do we die?....
We can either die in our sin, or have Y-shua stand in place of it... either way we do the original sin... disobedience...
That's why we need a Savior!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!