Does original sin exist?

[stonesoffire]

sadly false doctrines cause " selective acceptance" of the word. whatever sounds good is accepted, whatever sounds like it requires full commitment to God is rejected by many. 100 excuses of why this or that doesnt apply. we want eternal Life, but only if we can continue Living after pleasure and our own impulse. so many times only the scriptures which sound effortless will be believed because of a mind and Heart led astray by apostate teachings that are always so popular.

One who has repented and been converted has the new nature...is a new genesis...a new creation never lived before.

All those things of your post has passed away, and a new heart in place.

Religious people living according to the tree of knowledge of good and evil may be like this...but not the body of Christ.

Though they may fall for a time...they always return.

Mic 7:8
　 Rejoice not against me, O mine enemy: when I fall, I shall arise; when I sit in darkness, the LORD shall be a light unto me.　

 

[Skinski7]

God gave his creation a negative makeover:
-- Poison ivy, datura, and several fruit seeds are able to kill us. Cactus and roses developed thorns.
-- Indescribable pain in giving birth.
-- Man dies.
-- Man is born with the sin nature that came onto the world at its original sin. We can no longer not sin, until God gives us new birth.

The Bible teaches this about the curse...

Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Gen 3:20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

There is not a single word there about "Inherited Original Sin."

Abel was able to obey God and was righteous.

Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

God advised Cain to do what is right in RULING OVER SIN...

Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.


Cain rejected that advice and murdered his brother...


Gen 4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

Sin is a choice not an inherited disease.

The following is speaking of "by way of example" not some kind of inherited flesh malady...

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Many were made sinners by Adam through example. When we sinned we identified with the methodology of Adam through the exercise of our free will. That is why we are responsible.

Many are made righteous by Jesus Christ through example by identifying with Jesus Christ and WALKING in the Spirit of His life. It is a REAL MANIFEST REALITY. Jesus Christ came to this physical world and revealed the genuine righteousness of God apart from the law. Those who submit to his doctrine are made righteous for real.

That is why real Christian's don't need some silly MAGIC SWAP religion. We experience the real power of God and the real victory that goes with it. The Magic Swap religion is one of arguing for an ongoing cloak for defeat.

 

[stonesoffire]

They lost something skinski...had to be covered. What do you suppose their nakedness was?

 

[Skinski7]

Is not sin lust? Wanting the forbidden?

Lust of the eyes, pride of life...we all are born with "desire".

Only if the mind is given over to it. Temptation is not sin.

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Sin is only brought forth when lust conceives. In other words the "will" has to unite with the "desire."

A Christian has crucified the flesh with its passions and desires...

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Which is why a Christian no longer lives according to those affections and lusts...

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

Original Sin takes "temptation" itself and defines it as "sin." This you end up with statements like this...

We can no longer not sin. Until God gives us the new birth.

by Depleted above.

Consider that line of thinking. It negates the "death of the old man" in repentance BEFORE the new birth. Thus that framework has one "getting saved" when they are still in rebellion and serving evil. It is a subtle deception but pretty obvious once you can see it.

It shifts the burden of responsibility completely to God. First of all you have Depleted there claiming that they "sin" because they "cannot help it" blaming their "birth state." Thus the fault for sin is really God whom allowed them to be born that way, they are just a victim like someone born with some kind of disease. It's not their fault. Secondly it puts the burden upon God to "offset the inability" and thus the sinner has to WAIT ON GOD to do it all. No personal responsibility whatsoever.

 

[Skinski7]

They lost something skinski...had to be covered. What do you suppose their nakedness was?

They lost their union with God. They died spiritually.

They no longer had peace but were ashamed. There was nothing they could do to undo that, their consciences were defiled. Past sin cannot be undone, it can only be remitted by the mercy of God and that occurs through the New Covenant.

This is why we need Jesus Christ, for it is only through His blood that our conscience can be cleared of dead works and we can find respite in the fresh start granted.

Heb_9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;


Heb_9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?


Heb_10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.


Heb_10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

 

[Skinski7]

Original Sin shifts attention away from the conscience because if one is "born sinful" then one cannot take full responsibility for their sin. Thus Original Sin destroys "godly sorrow" which works a repentance unto salvation.

Does that make sense stonesoffire?

Think about it.

 

[followjesus]

Original Sin shifts attention away from the conscience because if one is "born sinful" then one cannot take full responsibility for their sin. Thus Original Sin destroys "godly sorrow" which works a repentance unto salvation.

Does that make sense stonesoffire?



Think about it.

if we arent born sinful then why the need to be "born again" ? Jesus says clearly " unless you are boirn again you cannot enter the Kingdom" the very reason we have to be born again is because were all born in adams image to begin with. its the entire reason Christ was sent to redeem us from that image of the sinner, and re create us in the image of Christ. if some arent born sinful then some would not need Jesus <<< thats impossible. " sinner isnt what we do, its what we are and why we need a Savior.

 

[Skinski7]

I used to believe in the Total Depravity doctrine of Calvinism even though I did not know what Calvinism was. I was influenced by Paul washer, Stewart Best and David Eells mainly.

My obedience to God was only ever partial in that I lived an outwardly moral life (never promiscuous etc.) and I upheld the Bible as true to people. Yet I was very compromised in my heart knowing that I willfully did wrong very often, ie. deceived people, turned a blind eye, compromised etc. I would listen to music I ought not to and would waste my time with ungodly past times. I also used to occasionally look at pornography and all that goes with it.

It wasn't until someone exposed to me what real repentance was and also the fact that Original Sin was false that I had a rethink and examined these issues. I could not refute the message I heard about a real repentance and actually dying to sin, being truly broken and contrite. Thus I took it seriously and changed my life and for the first time found a real victory over sin through the quickening power of God. Jesus Christ set me free indeed.

I didn't know much back then but since that time I have read and read the scriptures and pondered and pondered. When things began to become very clear I then delved into a lot of church history, read Calvin, Luther, Augustine, the Ante-Nicene Fathers, Wesley, Finney etc. I clearly see the deception that has grown and developed throughout history in regards to it, the bottom line that it attacks heart purity in salvation and thus a real redemption from all iniquity.

That is the context of what I write here for anyone interested.

 

[stonesoffire]

The result of sin is death and eternal separation from God. Death affected the very DNA of mankind. Weakness allowing disease to attack..

I agree with most of your post. But, there has only been one who lived the law perfectly. Not affected by the sin of Adam. So whether or not anyone can attribute the problem of mens condition to God makes no difference to the effect that sin has had on us.

We all will die unless we are Enochs. or Elijahs...physically that is...or the rapture occurs. We all are weak in our human nature. We all sin.

And we all need the mind of Christ as our soul receives salvation.

 

[followjesus]

One who has repented and been converted has the new nature...is a new genesis...a new creation never lived before.

All those things of your post has passed away, and a new heart in place.

Religious people living according to the tree of knowledge of good and evil may be like this...but not the body of Christ.

Though they may fall for a time...they always return.

Mic 7:8
　 Rejoice not against me, O mine enemy: when I fall, I shall arise; when I sit in darkness, the LORD shall be a light unto me.　

No im sorry, the entire word of God will never ever pass away. new creation means the sinner is dead and children of God are born. its in our nature if we are born again to walk in the ways of Jesus Christ. this doesnt change or erase anything. we still are required to obey God, only now we dont have the excuse " im just a sinner" anymore. if were a new creation the result is this

1 john 5:2-5 "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 4For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith."

I understand where your thinking comes from, but the word doesnt change, Jesus is mean to change us bringing people into obedience to God. its really quite simple. sinners Love sin, Gods children Love righteousness. we can either excuse our sin, or deal with it by the spirit of God and that requires the Word of God.

 

[stonesoffire]

1Jn 3:2


　 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.　
1Jn 3:3
　 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.　

 

[posthuman]

Original Sin serves to negate genuine repentance because its fundamental premise is "inability."

The ancient Gnostics associated the material world with evil and the spiritual world with good. Thus they blamed sin on the flesh. Their "salvation" was then through "knowledge" or "enlightenment" and was purely intellectual. This is what is taught in the current mystery religion (ie. occult philosophy as found in Masonry etc.).

This dualist notion of the flesh being evil infiltrated early Christianity gradually but became full blown with Augustine.

what's not dualistic about the idea of sin that only exists if you know full well that you are sinning?

what does it mean, "Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil" ?
that all can stand in His presence as long as they haven't heard the Torah and/or the gospel?
what about "forgive them for they know not what they do" ?
what's to forgive if they know not?
or "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy"
is there a a sizable group of others He's obviously not referring to who have no need of mercy because of youth ((wait, Genesis 8:21, erm, 'pre-youth')) and/or ignorance and/or lack of deliberate works?

i've been hoping to get across that sin is in the heart of man, whether or not it is consciously expressed in the actions of his flesh. which i do not understand to be gnostic at all, either in that the expression of sin in the flesh is inconsequential or that it is all that is of consequence.

repentance, too, is an action of the heart, because washing the outside of the cup is useless unless the inside is made clean. is this notion of inability a matter of the outside of the cup or the inside? how'd the inside of the cup get dirty?


"hey you there, you're going to heaven as you are, but if you'd give me a few minutes of your time, you'll be going to hell unless you stop engaging in this list of things which i will inform you are vices"

"kids, i hate to cause sin to enter into you for the first time ever, but i'm going to have to educate you in morality so that your ethical choices can be conscious and deliberate"



your pardon please if to me this is still a bizarre way of thinking.

 

[Grandpa]

This is really simple.

The lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes and the pride of life.

You don't have to teach anyone any of these. They are born with them. We all are. Inherited from Adam.

Romans 5:18 [FONT=&quot]Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

1 John 2:15-16
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.[/FONT]

 

[stonesoffire]

No im sorry, the entire word of God will never ever pass away. new creation means the sinner is dead and children of God are born. its in our nature if we are born again to walk in the ways of Jesus Christ. this doesnt change or erase anything. we still are required to obey God, only now we dont have the excuse " im just a sinner" anymore. if were a new creation the result is this

1 john 5:2-5 "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 4For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith."

I understand where your thinking comes from, but the word doesnt change, Jesus is mean to change us bringing people into obedience to God. its really quite simple. sinners Love sin, Gods children Love righteousness. we can either excuse our sin, or deal with it by the spirit of God and that requires the Word of God.

The Word and the Spirit. Grace is unmerited favor of God stooping down to mankind in kindness and giving us His Holy Spirit for the perfect man or the mature man of faith. Nothing can be attributed to our own actions in regards to our salvation.

It is the whole work of God in our life.

 

[Skinski7]

if we arent born sinful then why the need to be "born again" ? Jesus says clearly " unless you are boirn again you cannot enter the Kingdom" the very reason we have to be born again is because were all born in adams image to begin with. its the entire reason Christ was sent to redeem us from that image of the sinner, and re create us in the image of Christ. if some arent born sinful then some would not need Jesus <<< thats impossible. " sinner isnt what we do, its what we are and why we need a Savior.

We need to be born of the Spirit because God is Spirit. It is only then we can worship Him in Spirit and truth.

A baby is not born again. A baby is just born in the natural. Not sinful, but not righteous either. True righteousness only comes through being in union with God. That is why the Old Covenant is made obsolete by the New Covenant. Under the Old one could be righteous in the sense that the heart was totally yielding to God and thus pure, but due to the consciousness of sin that remained, one could not experience the full fellowship with God available under the New Covenant. That is why in Hebrews it speaks of the conscience not being perfect under the Old Covenant.

It is my understanding that the Holy Spirit simply could not indwell a human being whom still had a consciousness of sin, in the same way Adam and Eve covered themselves from God. They were ashamed.

Everyone needs Jesus including infants because Jesus is the way, the truth and the light. Jesus is the means by which God reveals and partakes in union with mankind. Thus a baby does not need Jesus to redeem them from sin, they have never sinned, but the babies spirit still needs Jesus for that union with God.

A life consciousness, or whatever one would like to call it, of an infant still needs to be born into righteousness.

Remember the problem with the "born a sinner" idea is that it presents "evil as involuntary" which gives vice and virtue no real meaning.

Vice and virtue cannot exist apart from choice lest they be meaningless concepts. Jesus could not have been born and then been a sin offering as an infant otherwise the sacrifice would have just been like a lamb of the Old Covenant. Jesus had to live a life of righteousness in order to present the knowledge of God before the whole world. Thus God in His mercy is just in forgiving sin because those forgiven have submitted themselves to the righteousness of God.

The idea that one is "born sinful" destroys any notion of responsibility for sin in the mind because one can say "I was born this way and cannot help it." Thus it then becomes up to God alone to fix it. The Bibles teaches that God fixes it on the condition that the sinner takes responsibility and TURNS back to God. Thus there is a wholehearted yielding involved.

 

[preacher4truth]

Original Sin shifts attention away from the conscience because if one is "born sinful" then one cannot take full responsibility for their sin.

Actually it does just the opposite when one grasps the biblical truth, it hit David right between the eyes - Psalm 51:5 and has served to do the same for Gods people since.

Thus Original Sin destroys "godly sorrow" which works a repentance unto salvation.

Talk about confusion upon confusion and conflating truth beyond recognition.

No man will repent unless it is granted by God. Original sin cannot destroy the godly sorrow granted by God in salvation.

Does that make sense stonesoffire?

Think about it.

No, it's senseless, unbiblical and readily dismantled.

 

[Skinski7]

i've been hoping to get across that sin is in the heart of man, whether or not it is consciously expressed in the actions of his flesh. which i do not understand to be gnostic at all, either in that the expression of sin in the flesh is inconsequential or that it is all that is of consequence.

repentance, too, is an action of the heart, because washing the outside of the cup is useless unless the inside is made clean. is this notion of inability a matter of the outside of the cup or the inside? how'd the inside of the cup get dirty?

Rebellion defiles the heart and it is wrought through choice. It is not involuntary. When a human being rejects the light of conscience by choosing to walk their own way it brings spiritual death for it cuts one off from the life of God.

The heart of sinners is sinful, not the hearts of the righteous. The hearts of the children of God are pure and undefiled which is why we don't produce the fruit of sin in our lives. We walk in love with our carnal passions in subjection to that love. The Spirit of God is alive in us and we conduct ourselves in accordance with the Spirit.

Original Sin is premised upon the fundamentals of Gnosticism because it blames "inherited flesh" itself for sinning, as opposed to the free exercise of the will. Thus through Original Sin men have an excuse as to why they sin.

it is impossible to take full responsibility for your sin if you truly believe that you were born that way and cannot help it. You are forced to blame your birth.

Thus under Original Sin there can be no death of the Old Man. That is why Augustine did not teach the death of the old man in repentance and it is why, later in his life, that he repudiated his early view of Romans 7 being that of the unregenerate.

 

[stonesoffire]

Sin causes guilt and condemnation. Only the Cross of Jesus justifies and brings peace. But...Justification is for all mankind. Yet must be received to be of benefit. Babies are born into sin...but have not sinned willfully.

I actually believe that flesh is destroyed...burnt up...in the presence of Jesus. He is Light...that which we cannot imagine in our humanity. His mercy for babies and children.

 

[Skinski7]

Actually it does just the opposite when one grasps the biblical truth, it hit David right between the eyes - Psalm 51:5 and has served to do the same for Gods people since.

People like you read into select and isolated portions of the Bible your preconceived bias.

David wrote...

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

First of all he does not say that "sin was born in me." You simply read that idea into the text.

He simply says he was "shapen" or "formed" in iniquity. In other words David was brought forth into an evil world. He doesn't say that "iniquity" was "born in me." I was born in a hospital, but that does mean that a hospital was born in me.

Sin is not a substance, it is a moral issue and common sense bears that as true.

The doctrine of "Original Sin" did not take hold until the Fourth Century through Augustine of Hippo and history proves this. Anyone can look it up. The theologians even admit it in their books, they just kind of make out as if it doesn't mean much, they tend to look down on the really early church as just being ignorant up until Augustine.

The Jews didn't teach Original Sin, they instead taught Yetzer Ra and Yetzer Tov, the evil inclination (ie. temptation) and the moral conscience.

 

[jaybird88]

i do not think this means "all children are automatically in the kingdom of heaven"
i think it means what He says - the kingdom is of those who are like such as children.

Truly I say to you,
unless you are converted and become like children,
you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
(Matthew 18:3)​

​

i agree with you that there is a bigger message to the teaching. its not so much Jesus saying all kids go to heaven and nothing more, there is more to it than that. but i do believe the less important message on the surface, kids go to heaven, to be true. but its not the main point of the teaching.

i don't really know much about these people ((but references to them prod me to learn more)) - but i really doubt Augustine said this, and if he did, i disagree with him.

this isn't about whether the Lord will save little children who don't in any full sense understand anything of these things. it is more about whether He needs to show mercy to them or whether by their very existence they deserve to share the glory of Christ - whether simply be being born human, they are justified before God and equal in righteousness to Jesus Christ, in whom there is no sin.

having sin and not being held accountable for sin are different things. one is guilt, and the other is mercy - and how can we even speak of mercy if there is no offense to be overlooked?


so i think that even if He brings all children into the kingdom, it does not mean all children are without sin. i have seen children. if He brings all children into His kingdom, it is not by "default" because they are already of the kingdom - it is the same way, because there is only one Way; it is through mercy, which is The Way: Jesus Christ

i wasnt quoting Augustine, just going by what his doctrine teaches as i understand it.

i cant fully explain what Jesus was teaching with the kids. He is directing His disciples to the kids. but why? IMO most kids dont fully get the blood sacrifice, nailed to the cross, the lamb and all the rest, yet here Jesus is telling His inner circle, the ones that know Him best, they still dont have it. there is something the kids have that we dont. maybe something we have in the beginning, lose and have to get back.