Does the Bible support firearms & self-defense?

rfkeller · Jun 6, 2013

Angela, I respect your thoughts and passion. I am extremely happy for you, that you have never been in a position of having to defend yourself or your family. I too am fortunate that I haven't either. I pray neither of us are ever in a position that we need to defend anyone... Or need to live with the consequences after the attack.

In my town (100k people), the crime rate is low. However, the risk of a violent crime is higher than a fire. I do keep a fire extinguisher in the kitchen and bedroom, because I view it as a tool to defend my life from a fire. I trust God will protect me by giving me the common sense to do what I need to to save my family's life. I also have a first aid kit and go to the doctor for preventative care. In all cases I am trusting God to protect me and using the tools He has equipped me with to do so.

Do you know the crime rate is in your town and do you keep a fire extinguisher available? I have not researched Canadian crime rates, but do know that England and Austrailia is higher than the US and both went up substantially after they imposed gun laws.

My wife was raped in her teen years, I never want her to go through an issue like that again, and I don't believe The Lord does either. Clearly He was there for her and still is decades later as she continues to struggle through the issues. Since safety is one of the basic needs of life, I don't feel I would be providing for her needs if I sat by and watched someone attempt to harm her. I would try to get her away from the situation as best as I could first and if all else fails, I would work to stop the threat.

You may be different than I, that is ok. I asked for opposing views and sincerely appreciate yours. I am certainly not trying to change your mind just supporting my rationale.

Blessing on your walk and journey!!
Rob

Donkeyfish07 · Jun 6, 2013

Angela53510 said:

One thing I don't think you understand about America (I don't like guns myself and have no use for one but I'm all for people being able to have them if they want them) is that IF a ban is done at a governmental level.....The government is breaking the law by even attempting to pass it, it doesn't matter if the bill passes or fails. It's just the way our constitution is. Over half the people that already have them would not give them up anyway, it isn't happening. There would be a civil war over it because it's considered such an important right here. We have a nationwide ammo shortage right now because everyone is buying.....price has more than quadrupled......The cops are even having problems getting ammo at the moment. All since the talk of a potential ban started.

Lots of cops on the citizen's rights side of it and a lot of Police Chief's have already come out and said they wouldn't enforce any gun grabbing laws. There's just no way this place is gonna peacefully disarm, ever.

Ariel82 · Jun 6, 2013

The Bible supports that we are to defend others and ourselves.

Sometimes God asks His people to lay down their lives, but He normally tells them about how they will die in the Bible.

With or without a gun, all life is in God's hands. If God wants to save a person, the gun can still misfire or the person could misaim.

I think we should focus on learning what God wants us to do individually with our lives.

we can fall to our knees and pray for others to come and save us, but sometimes God lifts us up and tells us to fight our own battles with the tools He has already given us.

Angela53510 · Jun 6, 2013

JesusChica1991 said:

Show me where self defense is in the Bible, for a person (not talking an army or the country) and I will agree with you. Actually, show me in the New Testament where Jesus said any where it is ok to take the life of another person. Even in self defense, or in defense of your family. (Yes, defending my family would be a hard one, but I would have to trust God, because there is never going to be a weapon like a gun in my house ever!) Trusting God, rather than chariots or horses is what it is all about. This is from Isaiah, and repeated in Psalms. Chariots and horses are weapons of war. Technically, even the people of Israel were not to trust in their weapons for self defense, but to trust in the Lord.

"Some trust in chariots and some in horses,
but we trust in the name of the Lord our God." Psalm 20:7

This is also reiterated in Isaiah 31:1:

"Woe to those who go down to Egypt for help
And rely on horses,
And trust in chariots because they are many
And in horsemen because they are very strong,
But they do not look to the Holy One of Israel, nor seek the Lord!"

Of course, the Israelites did this over and over and it was one of the reasons God punished Israel. Because they did not trust that God would take care of them!! As far as Ecclesiastes 3:1-8

"For everything there is a season, and a time for every matter under heaven:[SUP]2 [/SUP]a time to be born, and a time to die;
a time to plant, and a time to pluck up what is planted;
[SUP]3 [/SUP]a time to kill, and a time to heal;
a time to break down, and a time to build up;
[SUP]4 [/SUP]a time to weep, and a time to laugh;
a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
[SUP]5 [/SUP]a time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together;
a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]a time to seek, and a time to lose;
a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
[SUP]7 [/SUP]a time to tear, and a time to sew;
a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
[SUP]8 [/SUP]a time to love, and a time to hate;
a time for war, and a time for peace."

If you knew anything about the background of Eccl., you would not use it as "text" proof that killing is ok. For one thing, whoever wrote it, (Solomon or ??) was merely tossing ideas around and was probably depressed about the meaning of life when it was written. It is not the words of God to us, but the words of man to God. YES, they are inspired, but that does not mean that is God's plan.

The entire poem has to be see against a backdrop of contemplation of a life that has taken a wrong turn. Read the opening words of Ecclesiastes and you will find a very broken human being. That is why Solomon is thought to be the author, because he had everything going for him, and he trusted in himself and in peace treaties sealed with marriages to ruler's daughters who brought their gods to Israel and helped led the whole nation astray.

“Meaningless! Meaningless!”
says the Teacher.
“Utterly meaningless!
Everything is meaningless.” Ecc. 1:2.

This is not a happy person. This is the topic literally for the whole book of Ecclesiastes - also known as "Vanity" or in the Hebrew - vapour. So I would not tend to use anything in this book of the Bible as a proof text for killing. Plus a really good doctrine needs to have many more texts that just one to prove it is absolutely from God.

As I rode my bike today, I was considering what God expects from us as far as toting guns. My thought was that word JOY!

J - Jesus first
O - Others second
Y - Yourself last.

This whole post is based on a wrong Biblical view. God is who we are always to put first. That means following the example Jesus set and his teachings.

"For whoever wishes to save hislife will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.'" Matt. 16:25, (Luke 17:33, Luke 9:24 have similar passages!)

I was thinking that I am saved, and if three giant, mean, men break into my house, with guns (very unlikely in my area of Canada!) they would likely be unsaved. Which would be more important to God? My life - I know where I am going, and who I believe has me in the palm of his hand. These very big, angry men do not. Perhaps my path in life is to witness to them with my final breath that Jesus is Lord? And then they get saved, perhaps in prison, and they lead other people to the Lord - all because I was willing to lay down my life for the sake of the Lord!

Each thing we do, every choice we make, has to be made in light of Christ and eternity. To preserve our lives at the expense of others, who will go to a Christless eternity has to be a sin!

The biggest mistake of this whole assumption of a "right to bear arms" is not based on Christian principles, but rather revolutionary principles. And perhaps at that time, it was necessary. Canada is totally independent of England. We never fought a war, in fact, the United Empire Loyalists were those loyal to England who left American in the war and came to Canada. My husband is descended from these people who would not take up arms against their mother country.

We have all the rights and freedoms, to say nothing of perks like universal health care, and yet, we never had to fight, or kill a single person to become a free country. Canada was birthed in Conferences of Leaders and the West gradually added as immigrants filled the country. Because there was no history of guns (except for hunting, which I think at that time was a proper use of guns), no one ever felt the need to base our entire society on guns.

As for the red herring that "only criminals will have guns!" it has a small element of truth. But the fact is, narrow access to weapons, cultivating a Christian mindset of loving others, and praying for revival, and you will have followed Jesus words:

"Whoever seeks to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it." Luke 17:33

This life is only a training ground for the next. We try and follow Christ. He did not defend himself, and even healed the soldier who had his ear cut off by Peter. He went to the cross as a sacrifice for our sins. That is the model we need to keep in mind. Not nationalistic ties to the US, Canada, or any other country. The Bible is our guide.

PS. As far as needing assault weapons to turn on your own government, "Woe is me!!" May God open the eyes of the people who have been blinded by out-to-lunch radicals, instead of using the Bible and following Christ.

Angela53510 · Jun 6, 2013

Here is a link for a site about a man who was killed for his faith, and a brief devotion on "dying daily."

Dying For Christ

by Dr. Bob Moorehead

In 1980 a young man from Rwanda was forced by his tribe to either renounce Christ or face certain death. He refused to renounce Christ, and he was killed on the spot. The night before he had written the following commitment which was found in his room:

“I’m part of the fellowship of the unashamed, the die has been cast, I have stepped over the line, the decision has been made - I’m a disciple of Jesus Christ. I won’t look back, let up, slow down, back away or be still.

My past is redeemed, my present makes sense, my future is secure. I’m finished and done with low living, sight walking, smooth knees, colourless dreams, tamed vision, worldly talking, cheap giving & dwarfed goals.

My face is set, my gait is fast, my goal is heaven, my road is narrow, my way is rough, my companions are few, my guide is reliable, my mission is clear. I won’t give up, shut up, let up until I have stayed up, stored up, prayed up for the cause of Jesus Christ.

I must go till He comes, give till I drop, preach till everyone knows, work till He stops me & when He comes for His own, He will have no trouble recognizing me because my banner will have been clear.”

Angela53510 · Jun 6, 2013

Donkeyfish07 said:

I know all about the Second Amendment. It is just sad that it has gone so badly astray, and I agree that it will never be taken out of the constitution. But that does NOT mean Christians have the right to bear arms in light of God's truth. That is putting nationalism and earthly laws above God's law!

meggars · Jun 6, 2013

Grandpa said:

*having been seen, the canadians scatter and scurry to take cover under the nearest rocks*

Angela53510 · Jun 7, 2013

rfkeller said:

Not sure where you are getting your stats on Australia, but they are wrong!

"In 1996, 28-year-old Martin Bryant shot and killed 35 people near the Port Arthur historic site, a popular tourist destination. After the shootings, the country banned and bought up automatic and semi-automatic long guns, destroying at least 600,000 in 12 months — ultimately about a third of its privately owned guns.

It worked, King argues.

"Since the (Martin) Bryant killings and the resulting tough gun laws, homicides by firearm have declined almost 60 percent in Australia. The guns-for-everyone advocates hate that statistic, and dispute it, but as Bill Clinton likes to say, it's not opinion. It's arithmetic, honey."

One path to "almost 60 percent" comes from statistics compiled in part by Philip Alpers, a public health professor at the University of Sydney. The number of gun homicides fell from 69 in 1996 (excluding the 35 victims of the mass shooting prompting the laws) to 30 in 2012.

That’s a decrease of 56.5 percent.

(And, yes, you read those numbers right — we didn’t miss any zeros. The United States has about the same number of gun homicides every day as happened in Australia last year.)

"The truth is that gun homicide did decline substantially after the toughening of Australia's gun laws and the massive gun buyback," said Don Weatherburn, director of the New South Wales Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research. "The complication is that gun homicide was coming down before any of this. The academic debate is about whether the downward trend accelerated."

PolitiFact | Stephen King says since Australia cracked down on guns, homicides by gun dropped 60 percent

As far as England, population is around 61 million has the following stats:

"In 2011, the U.K. had 0.07 gun homicides for every 100,000 people; the U.S., by contrast, had 3 gun homicides for every 100,000. In 2009 there were 138 gun deaths in the U.K, where there are 6.7 firearms for every 100 people.

Read more: These Laws Are The Reason Canada, Australia, Japan And The UK Have Such Low Gun Homicide Rates - Business Insider

Japan with a population of 127. million is another fine example of how gun control works.

"What is the role of guns in Japan, the developed world's least firearm-filled nation and perhaps its strictest controller? In 2008, the U.S. had over 12 thousand firearm-related homicides. All of Japan experienced only 11, fewer than were killed at the Aurora shooting alone. And that was a big year: 2006 saw an astounding two, and when that number jumped to 22 in 2007, it became a national scandal. By comparison, also in 2008, 587 Americans were killed just by guns that had discharged accidentally.Almost no one in Japan owns a gun. Most kinds are illegal, with onerous restrictions on buying and maintaining the few that are allowed"

A Land Without Guns: How Japan Has Virtually Eliminated Shooting Deaths - Max Fisher - The Atlantic

I guess I have rather left the Biblical part of the discussion behind here. Amazing how people pull out the wrong stats to support unlimited access to weapons that KILL people. It boogles the mind! I think the US has a big problem that is probably not solvable.

As Ariel says - we need to get back to prayer. Revival of the hearts of people in America is the only thing that is going to stop gun violence!

Kerry · Jun 7, 2013

I will ask a simple question. When Cain killed Abel, who or what was at fault? The club or rock or whatever He used to slay his brother. Was it the evil in his heart or did the stick do it, did the rock jump in his hand. Who killed Abel?

jinx · Jun 7, 2013

christian, pro-gun, believes that GOD doesn't want us to murder (premeditated) but if someone comes into my house uninvited they will leave with more holes in them than they walked in with. I will protect my own!

Angela53510 · Jun 7, 2013

Kerry, it is unlikely that mass murders would happen if people were only armed with rocks, instead of assault weapons!

I keep saying it is about the heart, but that means as Christians, we have to relinquish our earthly national ties, and live for God totally. God wants us to live at peace, and to do unto others as we would have them do unto us.

Therefore, put down your rock, knife, bat, poison or gun, and live for God!

Angela53510 · Jun 7, 2013

Jinx, give me one example where Jesus told his disciples to defend themselves and their houses against evil with violence. Because Jesus told us to live in peace, to love one another, and to spread the good news of the gospel.

Kerry · Jun 7, 2013

Luke 22

35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.
36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Kerry · Jun 7, 2013

Angela53510 said:

Did the gun cause the mass murder or did the evil heart? If take guns out of our own hands, we have nothing to defend ourselves against these evil hearts. Bombs are illegal, that did not stop the Boston bombing did it. Only law abiding citizens obey laws, criminals do not. So in reality, you are saying let criminals have guns and not us law abiding citizens.

Kerry · Jun 7, 2013

Lets go a step further, is it against the law to smoke pot. Is it against the law to snort cocaine. Is it against the law to drink and drive? Just because it's against the law does not stop people from doing it. UNDERSTAND!!!!

4enlightment · Jun 7, 2013

Kerry said:

35 Then Jesus asked them, “When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?”
“Nothing,” they answered.
36 He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37 It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’;and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.”
38 The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.”
“That’s enough!” he replied.

Jesus was referring to them that before they went out with nothing and has gain something, but then he had said to them, now go ahead and leave with these items and see what good it will do; but they had taken it out of context in what He was implying to them, because they were without understanding. So basically when they had said that they have two sword, Jesus was basically saying in His thought, Oh boy, they don't even get the point in what I was referring to. That is why He had told them," enough." Because the devil had their minds twisted so badly. But eventhough that they had two swords but Jesus was still was nailed to the Cross. It was not what they desired to happen, but what God desires.

Cobus · Jun 7, 2013

Few scriptures comes to mind....Turn the other cheek, My people fight not for this world, He shall stablish or strengthen you and keep you from evil, no weapon satan makes shall succeed...Oh and many more... God did warn that they shall even KILL us for His Name sake, and that we will be hated by all.... so should we stand up against this? Did Jesus? Did John the baptist, did any holy man? Nope! If this does come my way, may God strengthen me to remain in His will.

Did they not kill all the prophets and even the Lord? Wonder why? Maybe this life is so short, it does not matter how long God makes this life, as EVERLASTING life is EVERLASTING... and that life they CANNOT KILL!

What MANMADE SWORD can compete with this SWORD? .... For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. .....and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Kerry · Jun 7, 2013

He said sell your garment and buy one. In other words better to be naked and have a weapon than to be clothed and not one. It reminds me of a story. There was a flood coming and the man prayed that God would save him. So the water got knee deep and a man came by in a car and said come with me, the man said no God will deliver me. The water got chest deep and a man came by on a horse and said come with me. The man said no God will deliver me. The water reached the roof of his house and a man came by on a boat and said come with me. The man said no God will deliver me. The man drowned and sat before God and said why didn't you save me. God replied, I sent you a car, a horse, and a boat what more did you want.

4enlightment · Jun 7, 2013

Kerry said:

So I guess when Jesus had ridden on a donkey ( instead of a white stallion) into Jerusalem with palm leaves (Instead of a sword) in His hands, you probably think that Judas had sabotage his plan of attack on the wicked by spending all the money up and Jesus had to settle what He can get for His cloak.
But seriously if you read it very carefully, you will see what Jesus was referring to, especially when He had said,"that enough".

Cobus · Jun 7, 2013

Whether they shoot with bullets or nails to a cross, they do the killing not US! NOT JESUS! If Jesus had shot back with crosses and nails, NOBODY WOUD HAVE LIVED.... End of the world....

Does the Bible support firearms & self-defense?

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