Eternal Security and free choice for the Christian?

[Grandpa]

GOD doesn't repent of his calling and gifts, but if a person refuses to abide in them, then in the last day GOD will say, "Depart from me. I don't know you".

If you've been "hired" then you have had your "interview" and have been given gifts that God does not take back.

The only ones He could say Depart from me I never knew you to are the ones who never were hired, who never received any of His Gifts.

A person has no choice but to operate by their faith. Whatever that faith is.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If you've been "hired" then you have had your "interview" and have been given gifts that God does not take back.

The only ones He could say Depart from me I never knew you to are the ones who never were hired, who never received any of His Gifts.

A person has no choice but to operate by their faith. Whatever that faith is.

I do not get where he (or they for that matter) come from, Look at what he said, He said God would say "I do not know you" that is not what Jesus said God would say,

Jesus said he would say "I NEVER KNEW YOU"

Thats a huge difference in interpretation.. WHich is where the difference comes in.

God said his gift is eternal. another problem they have, they have something God calls "eternal" and make it anything other than "eternal" so here they call God a liar.

How far can they go before they realise they are on the wrong path?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

If you've been "hired" then you have had your "interview" and have been given gifts that God does not take back.

The only ones He could say Depart from me I never knew you to are the ones who never were hired, who never received any of His Gifts.

A person has no choice but to operate by their faith. Whatever that faith is.

This non-compelling, nonsensical interpretation is based on how one word - never - is interpreted. I really don't want to get into why it is such flawed reasoning, but I will say this. I could truthfully say that I never knew someone, when in fact I did know that someone. The truth behind this seemingly contradictory statement is the different levels of personal knowledge that we can have about someone. We can be acquainted personally with someone (I know that person) without knowing who they are inwardly (I don't know that person). Another example: a husband knows his wife (carnally), but doesn't know her inwardly. So it's really a stretch to confine the meaning of this word to the limited definition that you are giving it, i.e., that its usage means that a person is not born again.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This non-compelling, nonsensical interpretation is based on how one word - never - is interpreted. I really don't want to get into why it is such flawed reasoning, but I will say this. I could truthfully say that I never knew someone, when in fact I did know that someone. The truth behind this seemingly contradictory statement is the different levels of personal knowledge that we can have about someone. We can be acquainted personally with someone (I know that person) without knowing who they are inwardly (I don't know that person). Another example: a husband knows his wife (carnally), but doesn't know her inwardly. So it's really a stretch to confine the meaning of this word to the limited definition that you are giving it, i.e., that its usage means that a person is not born again.

God makes mistakes,,

ok.. Thanks, That proves alot..

Never means never. Yes, I may know you as a person, it does not mean I ever knew you personally (as in a personal relationship) and in this context, You coud say you never knew someone,

which is exactly what God is saying, When he says "I never knew you" He means, he never had a personal relationship with them,, He knew who they were (God knows everyone) they they naver had a relationship.


Why? They were NEVER SAVED.

How can someone be saved who continued to practice unrighteousness?? (which is what Jesus said they did)

Are you not the one who says we can not be saved and live in sin??

 

[Trail-of-Truth]

How do those of you that believe in eternal security explain the issue of free choice for the Christian? I give several options that I am aware of, but choose option E and explain your answer if your idea is not listed.

It is God's will for us to have free will. That does not change when we become a Christian. Ask yourself next time you are tempted, if you are the one making the decision whether to sin or not. And what about other things? Can you choose whether or not you sit, stand, or lie down? Or is God controlling your every move? No, we genuinely have free will until we die. This is why the bible uses the word " if"- because we have a choice.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

This non-compelling, nonsensical interpretation is based on how one word - never - is interpreted. I really don't want to get into why it is such flawed reasoning, but I will say this. I could truthfully say that I never knew someone, when in fact I did know that someone. The truth behind this seemingly contradictory statement is the different levels of personal knowledge that we can have about someone. We can be acquainted personally with someone (I know that person) without knowing who they are inwardly (I don't know that person). Another example: a husband knows his wife (carnally), but doesn't know her inwardly. So it's really a stretch to confine the meaning of this word to the limited definition that you are giving it, i.e., that its usage means that a person is not born again.

Furthermore, other verses that repeat this truth do not use the word never (Matthew 25:12, Luke 13:25, 27).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Furthermore, other verses that repeat this truth do not use the word never (Matthew 25:12, Luke 13:25, 27).

This is being deceptive

[SUP]27 [/SUP]But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’

Saying I do not know you, even where you are from, means He never knew that person, He did not have to use the word never, it is assumed by what he said..

You still have workers of iniquity being saved at one time, then losing it.. Which is still against your own teaching..

 

[Grandpa]

This non-compelling, nonsensical interpretation is based on how one word - never - is interpreted. I really don't want to get into why it is such flawed reasoning, but I will say this. I could truthfully say that I never knew someone, when in fact I did know that someone. The truth behind this seemingly contradictory statement is the different levels of personal knowledge that we can have about someone. We can be acquainted personally with someone (I know that person) without knowing who they are inwardly (I don't know that person). Another example: a husband knows his wife (carnally), but doesn't know her inwardly. So it's really a stretch to confine the meaning of this word to the limited definition that you are giving it, i.e., that its usage means that a person is not born again.

Ha ha.

You're fired.

Is that what the boss is going to say if they don't follow your understanding of the gospel?

 

[Grace777x70]

Jesus said that He knew His sheep...It's the goats He never knew or doesn't know them now. ( that's just a ploy to take away the security that is in Christ - this is anti-the gospel )

John 10:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

Believers in Christ do not change from a sheep into a goat because they sin...nor when they don't do a particular sin does that goat then change back into a sheep again....and there are no "shoats or geeps"

Believers that sin are carnal baby Christians ( and yes slander and malice..etc.. are on par with committing adultery or murdering someone - it is still sin and believers that do this are still baby Christians no matter how much of the bible they know, how much they go to church and how much they pray - Pharisees prayed constantly ).

We need to preach and teach the grace of Christ so that we can grow up in Him.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Ha ha.

You're fired.

Is that what the boss is going to say if they don't follow your understanding of the gospel?

No, he's going to say "Depart from me, ye who work lawlessness".

 

[Grace777x70]

In a fictional world of unbelief in the sacrifice of Jesus - Jesus ( false one ) can say " You were a sheep but now I call you a goat" - because My blood wasn't good enough to cleanse you and make you righteous like Me. - you had to have performed your own righteousness in order to maintain what I bled and died for.

( This "fictional" ( false ) Jesus continues to say to us - ...you just have to ignore all the very clear scriptures that you have eternal redemption now - but I was just joking with you when I said that and I was just kidding when I said no one can take you out of My hand or the Father's hand )

The real truth is that the angels are going to separate the sheep from the goats and it is all going to depend on whether you are "in Christ" or not. It is either His righteousness you are standing in or your own D.I.Y self/righteousness/holiness. Lawlessness = unrighteousness

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No, he's going to say "Depart from me, ye who work lawlessness".

WHy?

Because he never knew them, or where they were from.

And yes, Because they practice lawlessness. Why? They were NEVER BORN AGAIN and given the means to change their lives, they continued to live in sin, because they were never saved.


And your the one who slams us saying we believe a person can be saved and continue to live in sin.. Yet here you are promoting it..

 

[PeterJens]

I like this particular discussion.
It hinges on one simple reality, knowing God. Jesus talks about His sheep, and that they know Him.
The story line is they are known from eternity. They are born from on high, and walk in His light.
They follow His way because their hearts are transformed by love.

Can someone know the words, have the revelation, walk in the gifts and still get things wrong?
I would say it appears so. It is the relationship that matters, the giving and receiving.

Now the key test of truth is the fruit of the heart, love, not gifts or miracles or prophecy or even theology.
Theology often straightens out when Jesus meets people and lays His love on the way they look at others.

So many will say "Lord, Lord, the things we did in the miraculous prove we know you"
And Jesus is saying, "I did not know you, you evil doers."

So the key issue is actions as a fruit of love working in your heart.
Now I would say as Jesus would say, if you are His sheep you know what I am saying, if not, it is all a mystery.
Can one be so close to Jesus and yet miss it all? Satan did, many heretics down through the ages have done, so the answer must be yes.

Can I say where you stand? No. I can only testify to the work Jesus has done in me, and what He said.
But why would you think Jesus would reject you if you know His heart and desire for people?

 

[PeterJens]

Born again?

If a person denies the need to repent, to confess sin, to walk in purity and righteousness, how can they claim to be born again.

The argument Jesus made was in following God you have to start again, learn how to be a child of God, how to relate, how to react, how to commit everything to Him, and have communion with Him in your life.

Some say being born again is at the sinners prayer. Some say the baptism in the Spirit.
I hold that it is picture language, talking about how God transforms a sinner into a saint, and the state of being a spiritual baby, learning a new way of living. However this happens or when in a persons life, the fruit is obvious. This speaks of the change within and how deeply things have moved.

Our churches are often full of 2nd and 3rd generation believers who are not sure if this happened to them or when.
You even have people who never would talk about such a situation, but have all the language.

I am sure many of the loudest here fall into this group. They are also followers of changing the meaning of the most fundamental concepts of faith, so I would question their foundation in their hearts and what gives them the right to say God was not able to convey the simple gospel message of love, need and repentance, it got so confused and "religious", the Lord needs them to deprogram the world with this new knowledge. Sounds very gnostic to me and not about simple love relationships.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Born again?

If a person denies the need to repent, to confess sin, to walk in purity and righteousness, how can they claim to be born again.

1. Denies need to repent. How can one be saved if they have never repented? they can not, and no one here ever claimed they could

2. How can one claim to know God and the law. then claim they just walk in PURITY and RIGHTIOUSNESS 24/7, Knowing this is an impossible feet. They can't. They have to lie to themselves and claim they know God, when in reality, they do not know him at all.

and if this is true, They most likely have never been born again.

 

[Mec99]

There is a BIG difference knowing Jesus and ACCEPTING Jesus as your Lord and Savior!

Its not about knowing about Jesus that counts.

James 2:19
19 [FONT=&quot]You believe that [/FONT][FONT=&quot]God is one. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]You do well; [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]the demons also believe, and shudder.[/FONT]

[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Its all about accepting Jesus as our Lord and Savior that counts. You can believe in Jesus but so do the Demons believe in Jesus![/FONT]

[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Its NOT about personal knowledge HeRoseFromTheDead, its all about accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Its all about walking in Faith with Jesus. Not about personal knowledge![/FONT]

[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]You really need to listen more to what God says in the Scriptures and lean less on your own understanding HeRoseFromTheDead.[/FONT]

 

[PeterJens]

1. Denies need to repent. How can one be saved if they have never repented? they can not, and no one here ever claimed they could

2. How can one claim to know God and the law. then claim they just walk in PURITY and RIGHTIOUSNESS 24/7, Knowing this is an impossible feet. They can't. They have to lie to themselves and claim they know God, when in reality, they do not know him at all.

and if this is true, They most likely have never been born again.

If someone says repenting is agreeing with God, which is just nebulous they have changed the meaning of repentance.
If you say sin does not matter because all sin is forgiven through the cross for everyone, then this is no longer the world everyone else is living in where sin matters 100%.

I see EG you do not believe you can by the power of Spirit walking in communion with God walk in purity and righteousness.
What you are claiming by this, is the apostles were failed sinners to the day they died, and Paul also.

You have no evidence for this other than your own experience of failure and idealism, which paints righteousness and purity higher than God does. It is easy to hold your position, because there is never ever anything you have to live up to, because you know you will fail, and it is all a waste of time because you are a slave to your sinful nature.

I am saying Jesus's love transforms you when you let Him in, so you can walk in victory. Is this something you have managed to do, or are you always surrounded by condemnation and failure? You are loved, where you are, and Jesus provides the power to change. How else would the gospel be good news and victory?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If someone says repenting is agreeing with God, which is just nebulous they have changed the meaning of repentance.

I am saying repentance is a change of mind or heart, Oe of being an enemy of God, to one of hearing wehat God has to say, and agreeing with him. Which hopefully wil bring you to a point of having faith in him in which case you will be saved, If you say it is anything else. You are misinterpreting what the term means.

If you say sin does not matter because all sin is forgiven through the cross for everyone, then this is no longer the world everyone else is living in where sin matters 100%.

I am saying, that the bible says we must be perfect, if sin is to be made an issue, Anyone who is not perfect has fallen short of Gods standard (Called sin see rom 3: 23 with Gal 3) and is thus under a curse.

Anyone who states sin matters is thus placing themselves under law. Or cosiders themselves more righteous than they really are.

IE, Lets use Gods standard of what constitutes sin and righteousness, and not our own or some other mans standard (legalism)

I see EG you do not believe you can by the power of Spirit walking in communion with God walk in purity and righteousness.
What you are claiming by this, is the apostles were failed sinners to the day they died, and Paul also.

Oh, I can walk by the spirit. I do it all the time, and today I am a much more obedient person than I was th emoment I was saved, I am not be perfect though.

Lets remember, we are talking Gods standard, not our own, I can water down the law and claim I am righteous also. It will not make it so.

You have no evidence for this other than your own experience of failure and idealism, which paints righteousness and purity higher than God does.

No one can place it higher than God does. His standard is perfection, How can you get higher than perfect?

And yes, I do have evidence, I see it all the time when I am chastened by God, and he shows me my sin.. just like paul and Jesus said it would happen.

It is easy to hold your position, because there is never ever anything you have to live up to, because you know you will fail, and it is all a waste of time because you are a slave to your sinful nature.

Oh no, I have something to live up to. I live up to Gods standard, And I keep running the race, knowing one day I will reach that standard.. Even if it is not on earth, Why? Because I love my Savior and I want too be more like him every day..

I am saying Jesus's love transforms you when you let Him in, so you can walk in victory. Is this something you have managed to do, or are you always surrounded by condemnation and failure? You are loved, where you are, and Jesus provides the power to change. How else would the gospel be good news and victory?

Thats not the problem, the problem is you, and people like you watering down Gods law to a manageable level so you THINK you are righteous, When in reality, you still fall so short of Gods standard every day,

When I wake up, I thank God I am not in Hell, because that is what I deserve.

I must assume you wake up thinking how thankful you are your not like the sinner.. (if not, I do not know how else you would wake up without fearing condemnation) I guess if that makes you feel good.. SO be it..

 

[PeterJens]

I am saying repentance is a change of mind or heart, Oe of being an enemy of God, to one of hearing wehat God has to say, and agreeing with him.

It takes time for me to really take this in and seeing the problem. In the middle of this is the lie a missed emphasis.
Sin is an action that destroys and denies the relationship between two people or between God and oneself.
It says the other does not matter or how they will react, just the action to meet some need within matters.

In its most fundamental form the other could die, be destroyed and it would not matter. In one sense you can sin against yourself, dealing with yourself in a pure destructive manner, which is why suicide is thought of as a sin. The law has nothing to say about self destruction, probably because it is obviously counter productive.

We all have the potential to be unselfish, to put others higher.

Now the conviction that we sin, we destroy others, we cut them out to the point of death, should grieve anyone, should cut them to the heart, should show them that selfishness can rise to the point it washes away all that we hold most dear. When you see that it truly flies in the face of idealism, or righteousness or all the pompous things we think about ourselves and comes with a cry to God, help us, deliver us, remake us.

And He can through seeing love, having it touch us, embrace us in the core of our being and for us to know we are not alone, we are understood, washed and purified, at home in heaven, with our Lord through faith in cross and Him.

Now you say this is just agreeing with God. You know nothing, an empty vessel, full of untold desires and inspirations, tossed and turned trying to get it right and failing but not knowing why.

At the foot of the cross I fall, because here love showed how much it cares for me, and what really matters.
What is shocking to me, you have a similar language to me, but a very different experience and a desire to tear down, attack, destroy another. This is the opposite of the message of love and the cross.

To say I am self-righteous is not to understand the cross at all or what it means to say, "I am a man undone."

 

[PeterJens]

How big is the cross?

Infinite. God, the creator of the world became a man, to walk with His creation, to make friends, to share His heart, to give teaching and guidance, to let the immortal touch the sinful. What was His observation? Sinners knew their sin but were outcasts and did not know why they were in this mess or how to get out of it, but they were in a mess.

The self righteous thought they had obtained life, which in part they had, but denied the fundamental failure, they did not know God.

Now this God let these self righteous kill Him and He forgave them, because it was the beacon that said, they were as lost as the rest and did not know Gods heart.

Now this is our God, this is His open door, this is His morality and love, to do the impossible, to overcome sin and circumstance, and walk in victory.

He did not come to do all this to create double minded people who want the world its gifts, health, wealth, popularity, success and also gain heaven while doing and dwelling in sin, which destroys the very things they claim to have achieved.

But this is the lie of hyper-grace, and once tasted always safe theology. Either you are a sheep called home or not.
And you show who you listen to by your life.