Evolution, Big Bang, and the Bible.

[Grey]

You implied that as a Creationist I automatically endorse Young Earth.

Crocodile and Whale? Really? Hardly. Rather than admit what the obvious is, you have to call it an animal that is alive today in order to continue with your stance of Evolution, otherwise to admit its an extinct creature resembling the stories and legends of fire breathing monsters

I can now speak with authority on it like you and others do when it comes to God "Oh I read the Bible, its rubbish and fairy stories, it just re-inforces my belief its made up claptrap." I think its just ridiculous, when you look at the complexity of just simple things, its totally ridiculous to suggest it "evolved", its far more logical to see it was created by a Designer. DNA is Gods lego kit, we are just starting to see that and understand DNA.

1. You implied it yourself when you said Christian scientists should "take a leap of faith", and accept that "man didn't evolve into existence over millions of years".

2. If you have read about Behemoth you would know it had been described as being able to hide in the reeds of a swamp. Do you logically think a massive dinosaur would be able to hide in reeds? Not to mention we're discussing an ancient cultures biological classification of animals, and if history has taught us anything, it is that the older civilizations had overactive imaginations and inaccurate views on the anatomy of animals and people.

3. Great quote way to strawman me. A massive amount of the bible is interesting, it seems to give a sense of community to earlier civilizations and I am 100% sure it has benefited mankind in more ways then one. That being said I disagree with many things in the bible. I am not a biblical authority, I have read the bible, and when I was a former Christian I believed in it, I even attended 2 years of conformation and was confirmed as a Lutheran. Once more I am not an authority on the bible, just as you are not an authority on science.

4. "When you look at the complexity of simple things, its totally ridiculous", that by definition is an argument from ignorance, to say something is complicated in ones mind doesn't automatically make it impossible that it arose naturally. You do realize that evolution and speciation has been observed in laboratories and in human history.

Complexity is in the eyes of the beholder.

Do you believe Dogs are wolves or are they a different species?

 

[Grey]

Personally I think atheists have introduced a strawman that makes them look silly.

Just out of interest what do you think led to the extinction of the dinosaurs?

A supplementary question if you don't mind, do you think the timeline of the geological era is more or less correct give or take a few thousand years either way?

Tell me more how its a straw man when the Christian I'm talking to publicly asserts that theres evidence of dinosaurs in the bible.

Most scientists believe in the meteorite theory of extinction and so far I see it as the most logical explanation.

The Geologic timeline is the most accurate collection of earths time frame we have currently but of course its hard to date to the exact day of an event with modern dating techniques.

 

[PS]

Tell me more how its a straw man when the Christian I'm talking to publicly asserts that theres evidence of dinosaurs in the bible.

Most scientists believe in the meteorite theory of extinction and so far I see it as the most logical explanation.

The Geologic timeline is the most accurate collection of earths time frame we have currently but of course its hard to date to the exact day of an event with modern dating techniques.

It was atheists who first asked the question and a moments thought would have told them there wouldn't be any dinosaurs in Israel, the question is a strawman. The only mistake Christians make is to fall into the trap.

I also think the meteorite theory is the best explanation for the extinction of dinosaurs and I agree with you that the "Geologic timeline is the most accurate collection of earths time frame we have currently" so you will agree with me that during the Paleozoic Era approximately 90% of all animal species were wiped out probably due to the blotting out of the sun which would cause the earth to go dark? Would you agree with that?

 

[Grey]

The only mistake Christians make is to fall into the trap.

so you will agree with me that during the Paleozoic Era approximately 90% of all animal species were wiped out probably due to the blotting out of the sun which would cause the earth to go dark? Would you agree with that?

I'm not sure you understand what a strawman is, I said he needs to reexamine his logic if he believes the world is 6,000 years old and humans and dinosaurs coexisted, then agricola proceeded to claim that there was evidence in the bible for dinosaurs.

Show me the strawman, I'm not asserting anything that he didn't at first believe. A strawman is defined as a misrepresenting of my opponents position. He claims and you are free to check this, that dinosaurs are mentioned in the bible and that dinosaurs and humans coexisted, then dinosaurs died out before the present. Show me the straw man what part of his literal words am I misinterpreting?

If you're referring to the Permian-Triassic extinction, though its more of the border between the Paleozoic and Mesozoic then "in" the Paleozoic, but thats pretty trivial. And yes but more around 80% it really differs according to where the species were located, aquatics took probably the hardest hit. Keep in mind I'm no geologist, but the rock layer seems to show that there was a significant dust or gas cloud that would have heavily reduced sun visibility disrupting flora, and the ability for radiation to reach the earth. That being said, not everything died at once, a lot of species struggled on for quite a while until finally going extinct. Now the meteorite seems to be the consensus, but there are some interesting alternatives, such as a sudden methane gas increase.

 

[PS]

I'm not sure you understand what a straw-man is, I said he needs to reexamine his logic if he believes the world is 6,000 years old and humans and dinosaurs coexisted, then agricola proceeded to claim that there was evidence in the bible for dinosaurs.

Show me the strawman, I'm not asserting anything that he didn't at first believe. A strawman is defined as a misrepresenting of my opponents position. He claims and you are free to check this, that dinosaurs are mentioned in the bible and that dinosaurs and humans coexisted, then dinosaurs died out before the present. Show me the straw man what part of his literal words am I misinterpreting?

If you're referring to the Permian-Triassic extinction, though its more of the border between the Paleozoic and Mesozoic then "in" the Paleozoic, but thats pretty trivial. And yes but more around 80% it really differs according to where the species were located, aquatics took probably the hardest hit. Keep in mind I'm no geologist, but the rock layer seems to show that there was a significant dust or gas cloud that would have heavily reduced sun visibility disrupting flora, and the ability for radiation to reach the earth. That being said, not everything died at once, a lot of species struggled on for quite a while until finally going extinct. Now the meteorite seems to be the consensus, but there are some interesting alternatives, such as a sudden methane gas increase.

The Free Dictionary defines a strawman as "an argument that appears good at first view but is really fallacious." I have no intention of discussing arguments that are intended to deceive and mislead. End of.


You admit the demise of the dinosaur was probably caused by a meteorite which may have created a dust cloud blotting out the sun causing not only dinosaurs to die but smaller mammals as well.

The Bible tells us that on day one there was light which is needed for the existence of life and then on day four we are again told there was light, how the ancients knew is a miracle in itself and is evidence of divine inspiration. The return of light on day four indicates there had been a blotting out of the sun such as would be caused by a large meteorite hitting the earth, then on days five and six we read of an explosion of life which accords with the Cambrian explosion and the "Age of Reptiles" on day five of the Bible, followed by the "Age of Mammals" on day six of the Bible.

Give me the Bible every time. The Bible tells us what happened, science explains how it happened and compliments the Bible.

Thank you.

 

[Grey]

I have no intention of discussing arguments that are intended to deceive and mislead. End of.


You admit the demise of the dinosaur was probably caused by a meteorite

The Bible tells us that on day one there was light which is needed for the existence of life and then on day four we are again told there was light, how the ancients knew is a miracle in itself and is evidence of divine inspiration. The return of light on day four indicates there had been a blotting out of the sun such as would be caused by a large meteorite hitting the earth, then on days five and six we read of an explosion of life which accords with the Cambrian explosion and the "Age of Reptiles" on day five of the Bible, followed by the "Age of Mammals" on day six of the Bible.

science explains how it happened and compliments the Bible.

Thank you.

First off I'd like to once again ask you for the strawman, or where I the evil rational thinker intended to "deceive" anyone, but it looks like you gave up on that one.

Also that is perhaps the loosest interpretation of the bible I have ever heard.

I'm not "admitting", that the meteorite likely killed off the dinosaurs, I'm telling you its quite likely at least in my and many others view that it did.

There is NOTHING in scripture to indicate that the light "went" away in genesis, only the sun and stars were created on the forth day. There is no lack of light or a "return" indicated before hand, only an addition of the sun and stars.

Science compliments the bible?

So many things are incorrect on that, setting the supernatural aside heres one of the many mathematical, scientific, and historical fallacies included in the bible, which you will probably dispute of course...

Noah/s ark wouldn't "sea worthy", nor would a 300 cubit foot ark be able to house all the species in the world.

On a final note, I doubt even 50% of the forum would agree with your radically new interpretation.

 

[PS]

First off I'd like to once again ask you for the strawman, or where I the evil rational thinker intended to "deceive" anyone, but it looks like you gave up on that one.

Also that is perhaps the loosest interpretation of the bible I have ever heard.

I'm not "admitting", that the meteorite likely killed off the dinosaurs, I'm telling you its quite likely at least in my and many others view that it did.

There is NOTHING in scripture to indicate that the light "went" away in genesis, only the sun and stars were created on the forth day. There is no lack of light or a "return" indicated before hand, only an addition of the sun and stars.

Science compliments the bible?

So many things are incorrect on that, setting the supernatural aside heres one of the many mathematical, scientific, and historical fallacies included in the bible, which you will probably dispute of course...

Noah/s ark wouldn't "sea worthy", nor would a 300 cubit foot ark be able to house all the species in the world.

On a final note, I doubt even 50% of the forum would agree with your radically new interpretation.

I have spent ten yours talking to atheists and it is like looking into a grave and not seeing the flowers and trees around, it's depressing. There is no point in talking to you any further and I shall put you on ignore, personally I don't think atheists should be allowed to parade their fallacies besides which we are all entitled to our own point of view and I know the atheist point of view only too well and it brings me no pleasure at all. If a Christian forum is flooded with atheists then it is no longer a Christian forum. I bid you goodbye.

 

[Angela53510]

In the beginning God CREATED the heavenand the earth
in the Hebrew this word created means to create something from nothing

This word in Hebrew bara, also is a word ONLY used of God. Therefore, to posit anything else but God created out of nothing is untrue to the Bible.

There is no allegory or parallel and evolution is an unworkable paradigm from a scientific point of view.

The New Testament affirms that Jesus created the world.

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together." Col. 1:15-17

 

[Angela53510]

1. You implied it yourself when you said Christian scientists should "take a leap of faith", and accept that "man didn't evolve into existence over millions of years".

2. If you have read about Behemoth you would know it had been described as being able to hide in the reeds of a swamp. Do you logically think a massive dinosaur would be able to hide in reeds? Not to mention we're discussing an ancient cultures biological classification of animals, and if history has taught us anything, it is that the older civilizations had overactive imaginations and inaccurate views on the anatomy of animals and people.

3. Great quote way to strawman me. A massive amount of the bible is interesting, it seems to give a sense of community to earlier civilizations and I am 100% sure it has benefited mankind in more ways then one. That being said I disagree with many things in the bible. I am not a biblical authority, I have read the bible, and when I was a former Christian I believed in it, I even attended 2 years of conformation and was confirmed as a Lutheran. Once more I am not an authority on the bible, just as you are not an authority on science.

4. "When you look at the complexity of simple things, its totally ridiculous", that by definition is an argument from ignorance, to say something is complicated in ones mind doesn't automatically make it impossible that it arose naturally. You do realize that evolution and speciation has been observed in laboratories and in human history.

Complexity is in the eyes of the beholder.

Do you believe Dogs are wolves or are they a different species?

Actually, if you look at the construction of DNA within the cell, you go far beyond complexity to irreducible complexity. That means each part of the DNA must be already able to work with the other molecules which is evidence for design.

The basic argument from biochemistry is that nature exhibits evidence of design, beyond Darwinian randomness. The more that scientists learn about the construction of the basic building blocks of life, the more evolution is not seen as an answer to the origin of life. Because the fact is, there are too many organisms which require ALL of the DNA to be in place, with one missing piece meaning the whole does not work.

As for wolf/dogs, they do interbreed, leading one to believe that the definition for speciation needs to be redefined.

As for the geological timeline, it exists no where in the world. It has been spliced together with bits and pieces from all over the world. You learn that in introductory geology, which leads me to speculate that some of the posters here have never actually taken any courses in either biology or geology. But that would not surprise me when I read some of the ridiculous speculations.

 

[Agricola]

I'm not sure you understand what a strawman is, I said he needs to reexamine his logic if he believes the world is 6,000 years old and humans and dinosaurs coexisted, then agricola proceeded to claim that there was evidence in the bible for dinosaurs.

Yet again you make blinkered assumptions about me due to knowing I am a Creationist, No where have I sated that I beleive the world is 6,000 Years old, I told you that in my previous post, yet you ignore it, if you ignore that part, then I hate to think how much else you have ignored, especailly if it challenges the theory of evolution.

As for hiding in reeds, the most common reeds around middle East are papyrus reeds, which can grow 15-20 feet high, so a large animal can easily hide in reed bed, the point about hiding in reedbeds is that its almost invisible and remains hidden from humans, a 20 foot high animal can easily sit crouched in a dense papyrus reed bed and never be seen.

At end of day, I know what side my bread is buttered, that is , I know God is real, Jesus is my Lord and Saviour and I have a good relationship via Holy Spirit. I see things different from spiritually dead people, therefore I think evolution is ridiculous nonsense and I know that as a result of accepting Christ as my Lord and Saviour, I am going to have eternal life in heaven.

 

[Grey]

I have spent ten yours talking to atheists and it is like looking into a grave and not seeing the flowers and trees around, it's depressing. There is no point in talking to you any further and I shall put you on ignore, personally I don't think atheists should be allowed to parade their fallacies besides which we are all entitled to our own point of view and I know the atheist point of view only too well and it brings me no pleasure at all. If a Christian forum is flooded with atheists then it is no longer a Christian forum. I bid you goodbye.

Well that's unfortunate, everyone is entitled to their own viewpoints, and their own rebuttals. I'm the second atheist I know who's on here, and the vast majority of my posts have been Christian months, I de-converted about a month ago. I enjoyed a conversation, and I don't mean that negatively. Heated discussions tend to draw me, and I admire you for trying to rationalize your faith. Vale, dignus adversario!

 

[Grey]

Actually, if you look at the construction of DNA within the cell, you go far beyond complexity to irreducible complexity. That means each part of the DNA must be already able to work with the other molecules which is evidence for design.

The basic argument from biochemistry is that nature exhibits evidence of design, beyond Darwinian randomness. The more that scientists learn about the construction of the basic building blocks of life, the more evolution is not seen as an answer to the origin of life. Because the fact is, there are too many organisms which require ALL of the DNA to be in place, with one missing piece meaning the whole does not work.

As for wolf/dogs, they do interbreed, leading one to believe that the definition for speciation needs to be redefined.

As for the geological timeline, it exists no where in the world. It has been spliced together with bits and pieces from all over the world. You learn that in introductory geology, which leads me to speculate that some of the posters here have never actually taken any courses in either biology or geology ( NO WAY). But that would not surprise me when I read some of the ridiculous speculations.

You begin with an argument from ignorance, (I'm not calling you an idiot) rather just because something is complicated, doesn't mean it was created. When you assert that DNA must work with other molecules, there are plenty examples of mutations, and DNA simply not working or exhibiting the gene it should healthily exhibit.

No where did Darwin assert that evolution arose from randomness. Research natural selection. I would say the exact opposite of what you said is true, since the introduction of the theory of evolution its acceptance has only increased in the academic world.

When you say there are too many organisms which require DNA to be in the exact place lest the whole not work, what are some examples? Of course there are primarily detrimental mutations, but I have one neutral mistranslation or mutation in my genes, and I function and according to my physicians will live normally.

I completely and utterly agree with you that speciation needs to be redefined, though thats already in the making in the scientific community. Also some wolves are capable of interbreeding, with dogs, many are not. The point is that at one point there were wolves but not dogs, and that dogs were selectively bred or evolved into what they are now.

The geologic timeline exists everywhere in the world. If you wanted to say that a complete geologic timeline exists nowhere in the world, then you would be half correct. You say it as if scientists are at random mashing together geologic layers from random points across the world then calling it the timeline. So so false, a lot of effort goes into finding source fossils as well as mineral matching in each viably similar layer.

And yes I would also agree that some on here have not taken rudimentary courses in biology or geology.

Thank you sincerely for replying.

 

[Grey]

Yet again you make blinkered assumptions about me due to knowing I am a Creationist, No where have I sated that I beleive the world is 6,000 Years old, I told you that in my previous post, yet you ignore it, if you ignore that part, then I hate to think how much else you have ignored, especailly if it challenges the theory of evolution.

As for hiding in reeds, the most common reeds around middle East are papyrus reeds, which can grow 15-20 feet high, so a large animal can easily hide in reed bed, the point about hiding in reedbeds is that its almost invisible and remains hidden from humans, a 20 foot high animal can easily sit crouched in a dense papyrus reed bed and never be seen.

At end of day, I know what side my bread is buttered, that is , I know God is real, Jesus is my Lord and Saviour and I have a good relationship via Holy Spirit. I see things different from spiritually dead people, therefore I think evolution is ridiculous nonsense and I know that as a result of accepting Christ as my Lord and Saviour, I am going to have eternal life in heaven.

If you had read the full description of Behemoth you would know that it also describes its tail like a Cedar tree which have been recorded to grow up to 130 ft tall. You're free to do the math on that one.

Forgive me, I never asserted to be infallible.

A passage you may enjoy...


[h=3] Ephesians 2:8-9[/h] For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

 

[Phillipy]

If you had read the full description of Behemoth you would know that it also describes its tail like a Cedar tree which have been recorded to grow up to 130 ft tall. You're free to do the math on that one.

So it's probably a brontosaurus/apatasaur hey? The largest of dinosaurs, to have such a tail.

 

[Grey]

So it's probably a brontosaurus/apatasaur hey? The largest of dinosaurs, to have such a tail.

If its so large why would it be capable of hiding in reeds as it is described, and why would the Behemoth find the need to hide in the first place.

 

[Phillipy]

If its so large why would it be capable of hiding in reeds as it is described, and why would the Behemoth find the need to hide in the first place.

Innnnnnteresting

 

[Grey]

Innnnnnteresting

You know, thank you for asking, I think I need to reexamine the possibility that Behemoth was not in fact a crocodile, rather more a product of a stimuli depraved mind, similar to that of a unicorn or griffon. Largely due to the fact that its description contradicts itself.

 

[Widdekind]

For thousands of years, (some) humans on earth, have been claiming to receive audio-and-video voices-and-visions, from "God in heaven".

What if "God in heaven" is an advanced Alien, with some sort of "space walkie talkie", capable of communicating information, straight through the skulls, of people upon this planet ? If "They" (for want of a worthier word) could encode information & data, onto radio-like signals, adapted to human "brain waves" (for want of worthier words); then "They" could transmit audio-and-video signals, straight thru skulls, inducing trance-like visions, so explaining the (widely reported) Religious experience.

For example, in 311 AD, outside Rome, Emperor Constantine claimed to hear a "heavenly voice", and see a "sign on the sky". And, guided by "his Heaven Friend", Constantine did defeat his foes.

What if "God in heaven" is an actually-Existing advanced Alien, capable of beaming signals at earth, to people upon this planet, similar to NASA beaming signals to mars rovers ? With such a "space phone", Aliens could "talk to" humans on earth, inducing Religious experiences, of Super-Intelligence, perceived as "God in heaven".

If so, then when (say) the Prophet Daniel said he was "communing" (i.e. communicating) with a Super-Intelligent "God in heaven", then Daniel was absolutely, utterly, completely, entirely, wholly, totally, truthful & correct. So was Constantine. "God in heaven" could be earth's nearest "space neighbor", communicating Prophesy to humans, to manipulate mankind, to "Their" Will.

[HR][/HR]
Logically tangentially, if "God in heaven" Exists, and is an advanced Alien out there somewhere; then "They" could be hostile to humanity, seeking to annihilate earth, as a "cosmological competitor". According to Muslims, Muhammad was the last Prophet, 1400 years ago. Since then, no humans have received "Prophet-grade" signals. (Although some have continued to claim "low-grade" voices and/or visions, from time to time.) Christians have received no "Prophet-grade" signals, worthy of recording as Sacred Scripture, in 2000 years. And Jews deny receiving such signals, for 2300 years (since the Prophet Malachi).

Uncritically accepted, "God in heaven" has gone into "space radio silence". Inexpertly, that resembles pre-battle invasion protocol, e.g. Japanese naval fleet in bound to Pearl Harbor.

"God in heaven" could be an advanced Alien, in-bound towards earth, on an attack invasion space-run, now maintaining space-radio-silence. When "They" Arrive at earth, and Emerge from deep space, "They" could (hypothetically) blast earth with "fire from heaven", making "earth pass away" (Rev 20).

Logically, there is no incompatibility, between Godly Religion and human science (cosmology). There is plenty of space real-estate out there, amongst the stars of heaven, to harbor advanced Aliens. Would any human deny, that if there were so much as one single Alien out there... then They should be presumed hostile ? Or, would humans seriously believe, that their "half-furry apenesses" were worthy, of "space Friends in heavenly-high places" ?

human science (cosmology) can accommodate the Existence, of advanced Aliens, with advanced communications. "God in heaven" could Exist, actually, seriously, completely concretely corporeally:

• 1200 BC -- They blast earth with radio waves, triggering an earthquake & tsunami, in the Red Sea, which destroyed an Egyptian army
• 600 BC -- They beam voice-and-data to the skull, of the Prophet Daniel, telling him They have forecasted the course of human history, for the next 600 earth years
• 30 AD -- They beam voice-and-data to the skull, of Jesus Christ, directing him to fulfill Messianic Prophesies
• 66 AD -- They beam voice-and-data to the skull, of the Apostle John, downloading to his brain, the book of Revelation, telling him They have forecasted human history, far into the future
• today -- They are maintaining space-radio silence, inbound, for un-human-authorized Arrival, to earth star system...

this speculation is logically defensible (if not desirable).

Please ponder, that if this speculation is true, then Judeo-Christian (Abrahamic) Scriptures are the most important documents on earth, representing transcripts, of actual communicative Contacts, from actual extra-terrestrials.

So, this speculation is not "Buck-Rogers, UFOs, flying saucers" -- "God in heaven" might be a "real deal".

 

[Grey]

Intriguing theory, I apologize that the discussion got so heated earlier, this is what I really want to get the cogs in everyones heads moving, to ask where did the idea of god or Yahweh come from, how can a force like Yawed exist or not exist, and what legitimizes Yahweh (or d-legitamizes) him over other alleged gods?

 

[PS]

Here comes the subtle whittling away at the very roots of Christianity.

Ask questions, fault the answers, add one or two half truths and spread doubt in the hearts of believers.