examples of speaking in tongues - need verification and explanations, please

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Kavik

Senior Member
Mar 25, 2017
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If the Galileans were speaking the same "Hellenistic" language you choose to believe they all spoke, there would have been no amazement... no accusation that the disciples were drunk.

I’m reading the text in a more historical and cultural context; I’m not changing anything written. I would argue that many people are reading into the narrative something that just isn’t there. The result of making assumptions that, when one examines the actual text in detail, are incorrect.

If these people spoke a slew of languages, why is it that nowhere in the entire narrative does it remotely suggest that communication was ever a problem to begin with. Surely, people speaking as many languages as people assume were spoken, not to mention the confusion that would have caused, would merit at least a sentence or two in the narrative. It seems to me that mention of a communication issue would bolster the idea of a language miracle that supposedly occurred later on.

The amazement of the crowd has to do, in part, with the role of Hebrew and the ‘social status’ (so to speak) of Galileans.

Hebrew was a dead language by the first century AD, but it was still the sacerdotal language of the Jewish faith – all readings in the temple as well as any teaching, prophesies, prayers, etc. were required to be rendered in Hebrew, not Aramaic (as a quick aside – Greek was slowly gaining acceptance as an alternative to Hebrew in certain areas).

In a public setting, this was done by the ‘teacher’ (usually a rabbi) speaking/reading in Hebrew and a person standing next to him would translate what was said into Aramaic (or Greek, as the case may be).

This translator actually had a specific title (it escapes me at the moment). The idea of one person speaking and another translating is one of the reasons why speaking a language (“tongue”) and “interpreting” a language was considered two separate things in Jewish culture even though they go hand-in-hand. This is likely also why Paul differentiates the two in his list of spiritual gifts in his letter to the Corinthians.

This dual usage of Hebrew (considered the ‘high’ language) and Aramaic/Greek (the ‘low’ language) in Jewish culture encompasses a concept known as ecclesiastical diglossia.

Diglossia itself is the concept of using a “high” language in certain social (including religious) situations/settings as opposed to a “low” language (typically the vernacular, everyday speech heard on the streets).

Diglossia is alive and well today; both Greece and German-speaking Switzerland have it. In Greece it’s a distinction between Katharevousa (high) and Demotiki (low). In Switzerland, it’s (Hoch) Deutsch (high) and Schwyzerdüütsch (low).

If this concept of diglossia is used in a liturgical setting, it’s referred to as ‘ecclesiastical diglossia’.

I’m sort of digressing. The point is, the Jews in attendance for Pentecost spoke Aramaic and Greek, but it’s very important to note that in a religious setting such as Shavu’ot, Hebrew was required first, i.e., the expected language to be heard first, then a translation into the vernacular(s).

When the apostles at the temple started addressing the crowd, the culturally and (more importantly) religiously expected language was Hebrew – this is the language the crowd should have been addressed in first, followed then by a translation into Aramaic and Greek. This, as we know, didn’t happen. The crowds immediately got Aramaic and Greek.

The crowd would never expect to hear ordinary people boldly prophesying in the ‘low’ languages (Aramaic and Greek) in this situation, particularly during a religious holiday; as strange as it may sound to us today, it would not have been the culturally or religiously acceptable thing to do. It just wasn’t done.

When the crowds heard the disciples boldly proclaiming in the “other languages” of Greek and Aramaic; the languages they were “born in”, the result was amazement, wonder, astonishment and even ridicule. This was an extreme breach of cultural “etiquette”. These men were Galileans after all; they should know better!

Another often overlooked reason for the crowd’s amazement was that Galileans were looked at as sort of uneducated ‘yokels” Because of this anti-Galilean prejudice, some of the crowd may have been surprised to hear the disciples “proclaiming the mighty works of God” with such incredible authority. Indeed, some even went so far as to accuse them of being drunk.

They spoke with “other languages”, i.e. Greek and Aramaic – “other languages”? Other than what?? Other than the expected Hebrew! Hebrew was completely dispensed with – for many people there, this would have been quite shocking and cause for amazement and bewilderment – they heard them in their own languages; not Hebrew first as should have happened.

The miracle was breaking through established cultural barriers and making “God”, directly accessible to anyone, in any language. A concept which, as silly as it sounds today, was virtually unheard of at that time. A ‘sign’ for the Jews that their God was now going to be made accessible to any nation in any language and anyone could benefit.

This, at a time in history where the concept of the Jewish God being accessible to non-Jews bordered on heresy; indeed, the mere suggesting that non-Jews could benefit from His goodness was to risk one’s life as evidenced in Acts 22:1-22.

On another note - the ‘list’ was placed in the narrative for political reasons (with Syria purposely omitted, and the nations/territories listed in a specific order). It does not evidence linguistic diversity; there was none.

Lists such as this were commonly used by the Romans for lands they had conquered. Indeed, this list from Luke, as one writer puts it, “is anti-Roman political propaganda witch advocates kenotic politics at its finest.” There are several well written articles on the subject and I would encourage the reader to explore this further; it’s quite interesting! One of the better ones may be found here: https://www.ibr-br.org/files/bbr/BBR_2000_b_01_Hengel_IoudaiaGeography.pdf
 

KelbyofGod

Senior Member
Oct 8, 2017
1,881
717
113
Thanks for the reply I will try.

A person would have to return to the foundation of tongues, a sign against those who will not hear prophecy, the word of God.

The foundation of the use of tongues in Isaiah 28:11-14 is a sign that confirms their unbelief (no faith) not a sign to confirm a person has the Holy Spirit a believer. But again, the opposite. Somehow or other it got turned upside down and today many use it in respect to sign seekers, the rebellious as those who require a sign before they will commit faith. (the unseen)

Stammering lips are the lips of the Holy Spirit mocking the outward Jew as scornful men as God brings his interpretation in other languages other than the Hebrew .

The word stammering is mocking.

God mocks them with stammering lips because they refuse to hear all things written in the law and the prophets (sola scriptura) but rather are those who make the word of God to no effect by their own oral traditions of men as doctrines of men by commandments of men.

For with stammering lips and another tongue willhe speak to this people. To whom he said, this is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. Isaiah 28:11-14

No such thing a sign gift that confirms the person has the Holy Spirit(we walk by faith the unseen )the sign confirms they did not have the Holy Spirit .

Like some other doctrines of men, they turn the things of God upside down into the things of men… taking away the understanding God offers through prophecy.

The end of the foundation of tongue is in the next chapter 29

Isaiah 29:16Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

Again its what the oral tradition of sinful men does make the faith that comes from hearing God without effect taking away his understanding.
Garee,

Thanks for the clarification. I was actually catching what you were saying...just didn't want to be putting words in your mouth if I was wrong.

And thanks for pointing out that "stammering" definitely has an aspect of mocking in it. 2nd occurrence (different Hebrew word) actually says its root word is "deride". I did not previously know that. That idea of mocking really threw me off at first. I'll be glad to discuss the points you bring up, but want to post something else first.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
12,355
4,069
113
If the Galileans were speaking the same "Hellenistic" language you choose to believe they all spoke, there would have been no amazement... no accusation that the disciples were drunk.

I’m reading the text in a more historical and cultural context; I’m not changing anything written. I would argue that many people are reading into the narrative something that just isn’t there. The result of making assumptions that, when one examines the actual text in detail, are incorrect.

If these people spoke a slew of languages, why is it that nowhere in the entire narrative does it remotely suggest that communication was ever a problem to begin with. Surely, people speaking as many languages as people assume were spoken, not to mention the confusion that would have caused, would merit at least a sentence or two in the narrative. It seems to me that mention of a communication issue would bolster the idea of a language miracle that supposedly occurred later on.

The amazement of the crowd has to do, in part, with the role of Hebrew and the ‘social status’ (so to speak) of Galileans.

Hebrew was a dead language by the first century AD, but it was still the sacerdotal language of the Jewish faith – all readings in the temple as well as any teaching, prophesies, prayers, etc. were required to be rendered in Hebrew, not Aramaic (as a quick aside – Greek was slowly gaining acceptance as an alternative to Hebrew in certain areas).

In a public setting, this was done by the ‘teacher’ (usually a rabbi) speaking/reading in Hebrew and a person standing next to him would translate what was said into Aramaic (or Greek, as the case may be).

This translator actually had a specific title (it escapes me at the moment). The idea of one person speaking and another translating is one of the reasons why speaking a language (“tongue”) and “interpreting” a language was considered two separate things in Jewish culture even though they go hand-in-hand. This is likely also why Paul differentiates the two in his list of spiritual gifts in his letter to the Corinthians.

This dual usage of Hebrew (considered the ‘high’ language) and Aramaic/Greek (the ‘low’ language) in Jewish culture encompasses a concept known as ecclesiastical diglossia.

Diglossia itself is the concept of using a “high” language in certain social (including religious) situations/settings as opposed to a “low” language (typically the vernacular, everyday speech heard on the streets).

Diglossia is alive and well today; both Greece and German-speaking Switzerland have it. In Greece it’s a distinction between Katharevousa (high) and Demotiki (low). In Switzerland, it’s (Hoch) Deutsch (high) and Schwyzerdüütsch (low).

If this concept of diglossia is used in a liturgical setting, it’s referred to as ‘ecclesiastical diglossia’.

I’m sort of digressing. The point is, the Jews in attendance for Pentecost spoke Aramaic and Greek, but it’s very important to note that in a religious setting such as Shavu’ot, Hebrew was required first, i.e., the expected language to be heard first, then a translation into the vernacular(s).

When the apostles at the temple started addressing the crowd, the culturally and (more importantly) religiously expected language was Hebrew – this is the language the crowd should have been addressed in first, followed then by a translation into Aramaic and Greek. This, as we know, didn’t happen. The crowds immediately got Aramaic and Greek.

The crowd would never expect to hear ordinary people boldly prophesying in the ‘low’ languages (Aramaic and Greek) in this situation, particularly during a religious holiday; as strange as it may sound to us today, it would not have been the culturally or religiously acceptable thing to do. It just wasn’t done.

When the crowds heard the disciples boldly proclaiming in the “other languages” of Greek and Aramaic; the languages they were “born in”, the result was amazement, wonder, astonishment and even ridicule. This was an extreme breach of cultural “etiquette”. These men were Galileans after all; they should know better!

Another often overlooked reason for the crowd’s amazement was that Galileans were looked at as sort of uneducated ‘yokels” Because of this anti-Galilean prejudice, some of the crowd may have been surprised to hear the disciples “proclaiming the mighty works of God” with such incredible authority. Indeed, some even went so far as to accuse them of being drunk.

They spoke with “other languages”, i.e. Greek and Aramaic – “other languages”? Other than what?? Other than the expected Hebrew! Hebrew was completely dispensed with – for many people there, this would have been quite shocking and cause for amazement and bewilderment – they heard them in their own languages; not Hebrew first as should have happened.

The miracle was breaking through established cultural barriers and making “God”, directly accessible to anyone, in any language. A concept which, as silly as it sounds today, was virtually unheard of at that time. A ‘sign’ for the Jews that their God was now going to be made accessible to any nation in any language and anyone could benefit.

This, at a time in history where the concept of the Jewish God being accessible to non-Jews bordered on heresy; indeed, the mere suggesting that non-Jews could benefit from His goodness was to risk one’s life as evidenced in Acts 22:1-22.

On another note - the ‘list’ was placed in the narrative for political reasons (with Syria purposely omitted, and the nations/territories listed in a specific order). It does not evidence linguistic diversity; there was none.

Lists such as this were commonly used by the Romans for lands they had conquered. Indeed, this list from Luke, as one writer puts it, “is anti-Roman political propaganda witch advocates kenotic politics at its finest.” There are several well written articles on the subject and I would encourage the reader to explore this further; it’s quite interesting! One of the better ones may be found here: https://www.ibr-br.org/files/bbr/BBR_2000_b_01_Hengel_IoudaiaGeography.pdf
the issues with your "historical and cultural context" is the you have to still have to deal with the authorial intent of the chapters of Acts 1 &2. The Context is the Empowerment of the Holy Spirit. The Ability to speak was given by the Holy Spirit. The historical context of


“If these people spoke a slew of languages, Surely, people speaking as many languages as people assume were spoken, not to mention the confusion that would have caused, would merit at least a sentence or two in the narrative”
It is not the context “the ability of those who speak many languages”, but the Holy Spirit was involved in doing this. The Holy Spirit gave them the ability to speak. This cannot be over looked it is the main context of Acts 1& 2.
 

KelbyofGod

Senior Member
Oct 8, 2017
1,881
717
113
Please forgive the length: ...

And this is where Kelby takes off his "let's do scriptural battle" hat, and would rather implead human-to-human...and in some ways I'll gladly make myself vulnerable to attack...Partly because I know that at the end of the day God will back me up, pick me up, heal my wounds if any are given, strengthen me, and set me on the good course,... and Partly because in no biblical account do I see the Holy Ghost being poured out at a time of battle...the 4 recorded outpourings were at times of peaceful agreement and vulnerability.

Acts 2 they were "in one accord"; Acts 10 =vulnerable situation & Holy Ghost comes where agreement is; And in Acts 8 and 19 he came at laying on of hands (If someone is close enough to lay hands, they are close enough that either party could seriously hurt the other if they so chose).


When it comes to "speaking in tongues" in the New testament (especially what it’s like, what it sounds or sounded like, how it happens, or at first WHY he chose it) is one occasion where I don't try to prove the point using a bunch of scriptures and logical reasoning. Not that I'm unable to use scripture, wisdom and logic..Feel free to check out my recent posts if you'd like, as I'm rather proud of what God has taught me in those areas. :)

It's just that the reality of speaking in tongues is that it defies our logical reasoning. To use a word Garee pointed out regarding stammering lips, but meant in a different way, ...speaking in tongues MOCKS our logic.

And I get it… I understand why people have a hard time with the idea that we’re saying “Hey, when you receive the Holy Ghost you’ll speak in unintelligible languages”...and that “GOD gives it that way”. That just seems foolish to how we think of an all-knowing God.

Yet even Jesus showed this aspect of God in what he required of his disciples...requiring the 12 to submit to something they didn’t understand, and it was a deal-breaker if they wouldn’t submit to it...and only promising them an understanding of it AFTER they were obedient and received what he was offering. John 13:7&8 specifically.

Receiving the Holy Ghost (comes w/tongues) is like that...and that’s kinda why some people need prayers, and perhaps even the laying on of hands, to be able to receive it. I was one of those people, not for needing laying on of hands, but it was hard for me because I consider myself a very analytical person. I think. I decide what I’ll say. Then I say it.

But the Holy Ghost doesn’t work like that. It doesn’t come through our brain like normal words…WE don’t provide the words that are to be spoken. God provides the “words”. We just let out (so to speak). THAT’s the part I struggled with. They were telling me “just let it out” and I’m like “Just let WHAT out?! And what do you MEAN just let it out??”

NOTE: that’s where all the “How-to” videos come from… from people trying to help people past that hurdle. And it’s why laying on of hands was used (but I won’t explain that now).

So in my case...:

After struggling with it for a while (right there in the baptismal tub), someone finally says “Try saying this..” and rattles off a ‘sentence’ in tongues. Again, being analytical, I figured I could simply repeat the syllables I’d just heard. But when I did, some of them came out differently...which was curious to me...because I hadn’t intended to say those syllables...and I really wondered where they’d come from and how did they get in that sentence?

So that’s all I had for 1-3 months… just one ‘sentence’...that from my perspective was handed to me by my pastor… So I’m freaking out (for the entire 1-3 months) thinking I don’t have what I need, and desperately praying. But someone said “Don’t worry, Just use what you have and God will give you more.”

So I did (praying OFTEN) until one day I was praying (out loud), using that ‘sentence’ over and over, laying on my bed...until my mind stopped hyperfocusing, until eventually I was relaxed and just kind of looking around my room thinking about what was on the calendar in the corner...until I remembered that “WAIT...I was praying.” and when I turned my focus back to what I was doing, I realized “...and I’m STILL praying!!” only now, instead of that one ‘sentence’ my mind was familiar with, I was now speaking fluently in tongues. That’s when I realized it basically bypasses the brain (or as someone says, it goes straight to the speech center and we decide whether or not to allow it (on most occasions))….and I’ve been able to do it ever since.

NOW… before anyone jumps on the “We’re not supposed to use vain repititions” thing, please consider that, according to the scriptures, there are some in heaven who “rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come”. If they are OK repeating themselves all day and night, I’m not worried if someone tries to judge me for (at one point in my life) spending a few hours a day repeating something...done as an act of faith... as a babe in Christ.

That's all for this post. You may pose questions or comment as you see fit.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby


 

Didymous

Senior Member
Feb 22, 2018
5,047
2,099
113
Please forgive the length: ...

And this is where Kelby takes off his "let's do scriptural battle" hat, and would rather implead human-to-human...and in some ways I'll gladly make myself vulnerable to attack...Partly because I know that at the end of the day God will back me up, pick me up, heal my wounds if any are given, strengthen me, and set me on the good course,... and Partly because in no biblical account do I see the Holy Ghost being poured out at a time of battle...the 4 recorded outpourings were at times of peaceful agreement and vulnerability.

Acts 2 they were "in one accord"; Acts 10 =vulnerable situation & Holy Ghost comes where agreement is; And in Acts 8 and 19 he came at laying on of hands (If someone is close enough to lay hands, they are close enough that either party could seriously hurt the other if they so chose).


When it comes to "speaking in tongues" in the New testament (especially what it’s like, what it sounds or sounded like, how it happens, or at first WHY he chose it) is one occasion where I don't try to prove the point using a bunch of scriptures and logical reasoning. Not that I'm unable to use scripture, wisdom and logic..Feel free to check out my recent posts if you'd like, as I'm rather proud of what God has taught me in those areas. :)

It's just that the reality of speaking in tongues is that it defies our logical reasoning. To use a word Garee pointed out regarding stammering lips, but meant in a different way, ...speaking in tongues MOCKS our logic.

And I get it… I understand why people have a hard time with the idea that we’re saying “Hey, when you receive the Holy Ghost you’ll speak in unintelligible languages”...and that “GOD gives it that way”. That just seems foolish to how we think of an all-knowing God.

Yet even Jesus showed this aspect of God in what he required of his disciples...requiring the 12 to submit to something they didn’t understand, and it was a deal-breaker if they wouldn’t submit to it...and only promising them an understanding of it AFTER they were obedient and received what he was offering. John 13:7&8 specifically.

Receiving the Holy Ghost (comes w/tongues) is like that...and that’s kinda why some people need prayers, and perhaps even the laying on of hands, to be able to receive it. I was one of those people, not for needing laying on of hands, but it was hard for me because I consider myself a very analytical person. I think. I decide what I’ll say. Then I say it.

But the Holy Ghost doesn’t work like that. It doesn’t come through our brain like normal words…WE don’t provide the words that are to be spoken. God provides the “words”. We just let out (so to speak). THAT’s the part I struggled with. They were telling me “just let it out” and I’m like “Just let WHAT out?! And what do you MEAN just let it out??”

NOTE: that’s where all the “How-to” videos come from… from people trying to help people past that hurdle. And it’s why laying on of hands was used (but I won’t explain that now).

So in my case...:

After struggling with it for a while (right there in the baptismal tub), someone finally says “Try saying this..” and rattles off a ‘sentence’ in tongues. Again, being analytical, I figured I could simply repeat the syllables I’d just heard. But when I did, some of them came out differently...which was curious to me...because I hadn’t intended to say those syllables...and I really wondered where they’d come from and how did they get in that sentence?

So that’s all I had for 1-3 months… just one ‘sentence’...that from my perspective was handed to me by my pastor… So I’m freaking out (for the entire 1-3 months) thinking I don’t have what I need, and desperately praying. But someone said “Don’t worry, Just use what you have and God will give you more.”

So I did (praying OFTEN) until one day I was praying (out loud), using that ‘sentence’ over and over, laying on my bed...until my mind stopped hyperfocusing, until eventually I was relaxed and just kind of looking around my room thinking about what was on the calendar in the corner...until I remembered that “WAIT...I was praying.” and when I turned my focus back to what I was doing, I realized “...and I’m STILL praying!!” only now, instead of that one ‘sentence’ my mind was familiar with, I was now speaking fluently in tongues. That’s when I realized it basically bypasses the brain (or as someone says, it goes straight to the speech center and we decide whether or not to allow it (on most occasions))….and I’ve been able to do it ever since.

NOW… before anyone jumps on the “We’re not supposed to use vain repititions” thing, please consider that, according to the scriptures, there are some in heaven who “rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come”. If they are OK repeating themselves all day and night, I’m not worried if someone tries to judge me for (at one point in my life) spending a few hours a day repeating something...done as an act of faith... as a babe in Christ.

That's all for this post. You may pose questions or comment as you see fit.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby


I've never had an issue with anyone speaking in tongues-even when they use them against Paul's instruction on how they should be used. What I've always had a problem with(and the Holy Spirit in me bears witness)is when people start making claims like 'if you don't speak in tongues, you aren't saved, or haven't been filled with the Holy Spirit,' or other such claims. And I haven't ever seen anyone do it like it's recorded in Acts.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
463
83
I've never had an issue with anyone speaking in tongues-even when they use them against Paul's instruction on how they should be used.
I don't believe people should use tongues in opposition to Paul's instruction on how they should be used.

What I've always had a problem with(and the Holy Spirit in me bears witness)is when people start making claims like 'if you don't speak in tongues, you aren't saved, or haven't been filled with the Holy Spirit,' or other such claims.
Agreed. There are many, if not most, Christians who are born again but do not speak in tongues.

(doesn't mean they can't...)

And I haven't ever seen anyone do it like it's recorded in Acts.
While I personally have not witnessed it, I have heard of several instances when someone spoke in tongues and someone else in the group understood what the person speaking was saying. It does not happen often, because the vast majority of the time, people who are gathered together all speak the same language. Since the person speaking in tongues does not understand what he is saying, it makes sense that nobody else would either, which is why when done in public, tongues must always be interpreted.
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
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Afterstruggling with it for a while (right there in the baptismal tub), someonefinally says “Try saying this..” and rattles off a ‘sentence’ in tongues.Again, being analytical, I figured I could simply repeat the syllables I’d justheard. But when I did, some of them came out differently...which was curious tome...because I hadn’t intended to say those syllables...and I really wonderedwhere they’d come from and how did they get in that sentence?

So that’s all I had for 1-3 months… just one ‘sentence’...that from myperspective was handed to me by my pastor… So I’m freaking out (for the entire1-3 months) thinking I don’t have what I need, and desperately praying. Butsomeone said “Don’t worry, Just use what you have and God will give you more.”

Good point in respect to John 13:7-8 . It’s how beautiful are the feet that have been washed by the gospel. Prophecy is attributed to God not men.


It’s not what Peter said that moved men to believe God as if it was Peter's interpretation.


Its God who speaks not men. Knowing first no prophecy is of any private interpretation of men .The idea of a gift of second handguessing loses its place as needing an outside authority to make it clear whatGod says .He does not make noises without meaning.


Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt knowhereafter. Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesusanswered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.John 13:7-8
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
9,635
787
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The only difference I see is that it would seem even more miraculous if only 11 or 12 we're speaking 16 or 17 different languages-not that God would have any trouble doing either.
I always wondered if the speakers were actually speaking in all those languages, or if the hearers were each serving as interpreters. (Ie if only one language was actually spoken, but 16 languages were heard)
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
I always wondered if the speakers were actually speaking in all those languages, or if the hearers were each serving as interpreters. (Ie if only one language was actually spoken, but 16 languages were heard)
God speaks all the languages of the world. Its his interpretation they all hear.
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,660
57
48
I always wondered if the speakers were actually speaking in all those languages, or if the hearers were each serving as interpreters. (Ie if only one language was actually spoken, but 16 languages were heard)
Why wonder? Just ask a modern day tongue talker.
 

Joseppi

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2018
887
7
18
The only difference I see is that it would seem even more miraculous if only 11 or 12 we're speaking 16 or 17 different languages-not that God would have any trouble doing either.
I think God does miracles to prove to all that Almighty God is the one speaking by his word or his act.

Why did God introduce the church to the world in the manner he chose?

I think the miracle of tongues on Pentecost is God informing the church that it’s primary marching order is to take the gospel into all the world, That in pursuit of that objective the Holy Ghost shall manifest authority and power in Jesus name.

I think that when the church isn’t going forth into all the world then signs and wonders and the miracles of God are greatly restrained.

And if the church persists in resisting and hindering the Spirit in the global spread of the gospel then at some point God will ordain persecution to scatter the flock towards the four corners of the earth to work in the field until harvest is brought in.
 
Last edited:

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,536
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I always wondered if the speakers were actually speaking in all those languages...
On the day of Pentecost there were more than 15 disciples who received the gift of tongues. So specific languages (approx 15) were given to specific disciples and they spoke them supernaturally. It was a miraculous manifestation. It was not the hearers who were supernaturally interpreting.
 

KelbyofGod

Senior Member
Oct 8, 2017
1,881
717
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And if the church persists in resisting and hindering the Spirit in the global spread of the gospel then at some point God will ordain persecution to scatter the flock towards the four corners of the earth to work in the field until harvest is brought in.
Joseppi,

That (persecution causing scattering) sure seems to be what happened in the book of Acts... Thinking of Saul/Paul and how the believers scattered except the apostles. Others tell me all the first apostles were eventually killed. Which makes me wonder if they also should have left. But that's just me wondering, not something I've asked God about yet.

By the way, I really like your name. What does it mean?

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
 

KelbyofGod

Senior Member
Oct 8, 2017
1,881
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I'm one of those modern-day tongues talkers... and because of that I'll gladly share what I do know about it...but as you know, the only one who knows all the answers is God himself. So in truth it's best to ask him and not rely on our own understanding.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
 

KelbyofGod

Senior Member
Oct 8, 2017
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There is a huge grain of truth to the idea of asking a tongues-talker about tongues... just like if you really want to know about any topic, it's best to ask someone who actually does it, rather than someone who openly claims to have no experience in it.
 

Gabriel2020

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
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I speak in tongues only when the holy ghost comes upon me, and not at my own choosing. That was the problem back then in the churches. speaking out of term by their own joy, and not by the holy spirit.
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
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Why wonder? Just ask a modern day tongue talker.
Uhm ... I'm a modern day tongue talker. Biblically I'd say the jury is out on that one.
 

Gabriel2020

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
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Tongue talking is for that person being edified when they are alone. tongue talking in a church is for someone in the crowd to interpret. if no one can interpret, then it is you by your joy, and not the holy spirit. That is what Paul was trying to get straight with the churches. They had complaints concerning this, and confided in Paul for an ansrew.
 

Kavik

Senior Member
Mar 25, 2017
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This is a response to a few posts above – I just want to clarify, that I am not intentionally “bashing” anyone here; just offering some general observations and food for thought, as it were.

“If these people spoke a slew of languages, “Surely, people speaking as many languages as people assume were spoken, not to mention the confusion that would have caused, would merit at least a sentence or two in the narrative”
It is not the context “the ability of those who speak many languages”, but the Holy Spirit was involved in doing this. The Holy Spirit gave them the ability to speak. This cannot be over looked it is the main context of Acts 1& 2.



Yes, absolutely – it is the H/S who gave the apostles the spiritual strength to do this and to make the Jewish God accessible to Gentiles without having to observe the strict Jewish custom of ecclesiastical diglossia. In other words, they were given the spiritual strength to just speak to people in the vernacular and, I’m sure what they said was inspired by the H/S as well.

Acts 2 they were "in one accord"

The 12 apostles were again “together” with the addition of Matthias to replace Judas. It’s a reference to the apostles being “whole” (i.e. of 12 people) again.

But the Holy Ghost doesn’t work like that. It doesn’t come through our brain like normal words…WE don’t provide the words that are to be spoken. God provides the “words”. We just let out (so to speak).

There are no ‘words’ actually spoken though; modern tongues is not language. Any utterance comes from the speaker’s own subconscious. Why will a person’s ‘tongues’ never contain sounds that do not already exist in the speaker’s own native language (or any s/he has come into contact with)?

After struggling with it for a while (right there in the baptismal tub), someone finally says “Try saying this..” and rattles off a ‘sentence’ in tongues. Again, being analytical, I figured I could simply repeat the syllables I’d just heard. But when I did, some of them came out differently...which was curious to me...because I hadn’t intended to say those syllables...and I really wondered where they’d come from and how did they get in that sentence?

When people repeat a phrase in a real foreign language, it doesn’t always come out right; a person repeats what they think they hear or what the sounds ‘sound like’ to them using their native language as a reference. That’s quite common with the ‘repeat after me’ method of language learning. No difference whether what you’re repeating is a real language or just a string of sounds. I’d be willing to bet that the person who spoke it probably could not repeat it the same way again either un less it was a “stock phrase” that many speakers will memorize to “prime the pump”, I believe is the common way it’s put).

So I did (praying OFTEN) until one day I was praying (out loud), using that ‘sentence’ over and over, laying on my bed...until my mind stopped hyperfocusing, until eventually I was relaxed and just kind of looking around my room thinking about what was on the calendar in the corner...until I remembered that “WAIT...I was praying.” and when I turned my focus back to what I was doing, I realized “...and I’m STILL praying!!

When you stopped hyperfocussing, and focused on something different, you allowed your subconscious mind to take over and glossolalia just flowed. That’s the way the subconscious tends to work.

I’m ptetry srue yur’oe rdnaieg this psot wtih albeutolsy no dciltefifuis wetvosaehr. How is taht pbislobse?? Nihtong is in oerdr!

Just an elaxpme of how the mnid pcsrosees lugnagae – yur’oe rdgenaig this plctferey fnie; you konw it’s msseed up yet yru’oe albe to raed anolg at a dsenect cilp

S1M1L4RLY, Y0UR M1ND 15 R34D1NG 7H15 4U70M471C4LLY W17H0U7 3V3N 7H1NK1NG 4B0U7 17.

See, you were just using the subconscious to process what looks like gibberish.

Have you ever recorded yourself speaking and really listened to what it is you’re actually producing??
 

Joseppi

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2018
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[h=1]Hebrews 9:13-14 King James Version (KJV)[/h][FONT=&quot]13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Why did the conscience have to be purged from dead works to serve the living God? What does that even mean? [/FONT]
Dead works are works done in the flesh, under the condemnation of the law of God.

The conscience provides us the awareness of the condemnation of the law against sin.

The conscience can only be purged by faith in Jesus according to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

The blood of Jesus is required to cleanse a conscience but any reliance on dead works denies this that truth.
The condemnation of the law can only be dealt with by the redemption and justification Jesus provides according to God’s grace.

The danger is this, that if the conscience condemns a soul then faith in Jesus is needed and brethren weak in faith can fall away.

The Devil attacks the saints by denying the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Satan seeks to accuse and condemn the saints to try and prevent them from standing by faith in the grace of God. If Satan can get a man to rely on dead works that man will have fallen away from the faith that is needed to stand in the grace of God.

The need to maintain the conscience free of condemnation proves that knowledge of the truth, faithful and steadfast faith in the word of God is essential to salvation.

Jesus said, Let the dead bury the dead.

So, all who refuse to faithfully follow Jesus are dead men walking in the flesh under the condemnation of the law. Therefore, all their works are dead works done by the flesh.
Whereas, the saint following Jesus faithfully does do the works of God in accordance with the Spirit of life in Christ.

This is shown in the sermon on the mount in which Jesus carefully taught that only God, according to his mercy and grace, can give a man the power needed to do the works of God in the flesh. For dead men in unbelief can’t do the will of God. But men of faith in Jesus can do the will of God because they are born again of the Spirit and can walk in the spirit of Jesus’ life daily.