examples of speaking in tongues - need verification and explanations, please
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Okay, I'm sorry for this thread jack. I need to know how you can be certain what you are doing is from God and not the enemy? I am, by nature very skeptical about things. When it comes to performing miracles or speaking in tongues, I'm very very cautious. My desire to try something new is hindered by my fear of being duped by the evil one. What makes you guys so sure that this is on the up and up? Why is it so easy to believe that it is not from the deceiver? Truly, I am not attacking your beliefs. I am fearful of just accepting things like this. I know how often I have been deceived in life. I don't want to be naive with decisions concerning my soul. Thanks.
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P
good question, i was brought up into spiritualism and spiritual healing is very close to faith healing if you just look at the outward immediate affects. A christian now for over 20 years, i would say that anything that is truly of God would bring you closer to Jesus. As a spiritualist i was mislead into thinking that Jesus was just a great healer and i searched for the source of what i thought was his source of energy/healing power. I now know that Jesus himself is the source of all spiritual power (healing or otherwise) through the holy spirit. God Bless
hi livingepistle
my issues with this as any sort of proof/evidence or reliable witness:
1) this is at best a 3rd hand account of the girl speaking hebrew to a jewish antimissionary:
the author, John L. Sherrill corresponds with Azusa Street eyewitness Mr. Harvey McAlister, who relates something his deceased brother had supposedly seen, and had reported back to the brother. he says he heard it from the girl's parents as well.
2) i searched for awhile and only ever found the same snippet. i never found any evidence or writings by the Jewish man, who presumably would have been named or heard from again somewhere, having experienced something so dramatic, presumably bringing about his conversion. if such evidence exists, i would like to see it.
i noticed his name was never given, so no follow-up can be done, unless he himself recorded it somewhere. in spite of the fact the account says she knew his name and more:
"She told me my first name and my last name, and she told me why I was in the city and what my occupation was in life, and then she called upon me to repent. She told me things about my life which it would be impossible for any person in this city to know"
we have an account in Acts of a girl who was able to proclaim things that were absolutely true:
Acts 16
16As we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl who had a spirit of divination and brought her owners much gain by fortune-telling. 17She followed Paul and us, crying out, “These men are servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to you the way of salvation.” 18And this she kept doing for many days. Paul, having become greatly annoyed, turned and said to the spirit, “I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.” And it came out that very hour."
3) i have read the accounts of the Azusa Street revival, including its historical precedents, and what followed...there's nothing about that event that i would accept as genuine or of the Holy Spirit.
In the early 1900's William Seymour had been taught about receiving the baptism with the Holy Ghost, (i.e. the gift of speaking in other tongues) by Charles Fox Parham in Kansas.
Seymour received the baptism at some point while at Bible school under Parham.
Seymour went to Los Angeles and began to preach about the Holy Spirit baptism in a barn/warehouse on Azusa.
notice all these people were "taught" by someone.
Charles Fox Parham was a shady character....i highly doubt God would have used him for something so important as what they called PENTECOST. eve he said, in the end that Azusa was overrun with spiritualist mediums and hypnotists who were attracted to the Azusa manifestations.
Contemporaries and theologians had this to say at the time (if we are using contemporary accounts):
G. Campbell Morgan described the Azusa Street activities as "the last vomit of Satan." (Holy Laughter to Holy Fire" by Michael L. Brown, pages 197&198)
R.A. Torrey declared that this new Pentecostal movement was "emphatically not of God, and founded by a Sodomite." (Holy Laughter to Holy Fire" by Michael L. Brown, pages 197&198)
H. A. Ironside said both the holiness and Pentecostal movements were "disgusting ... delusions and insanities." In 1912 he said of their meetings "pandemonium's where exhibitions worthy of a madhouse or a collection of howling dervishes," were causing a "heavy toll of lunacy and infidelity." (Holy Laughter to Holy Fire" by Michael L. Brown, pages 197&198)
W.B. Godbey said of the Azusa Street participants "Satan's preachers, jugglers, necromancers, enchanters, magicians, and all sorts or mendicants," and he claimed the movement was the result of spiritualism.(Holy Laughter to Holy Fire" by Michael L. Brown, pages 197&198)
Clarence Larkin "But the conduct of those possessed, in which they fall to the ground and writhe in contortions, causing disarrangement's of the clothing and disgraceful scenes, is more a characteristic of demon possession, than a work of the Holy Spirit. From what has been said we see that we are living in "Perilous Times," and that all about us are "Seducing Spirits," and that they will become more active as the Dispensation draws to its close, and that we must exert the greatest care lest we be led astray." (Holy Laughter to Holy Fire" by Michael L. Brown, pages 197&198)
.....
k. so sorry, that 3rd hand account coming from an event i already reject (and can trace to even more serious issues) doesn't convince me of anything.
zone
my issues with this as any sort of proof/evidence or reliable witness:
1) this is at best a 3rd hand account of the girl speaking hebrew to a jewish antimissionary:
the author, John L. Sherrill corresponds with Azusa Street eyewitness Mr. Harvey McAlister, who relates something his deceased brother had supposedly seen, and had reported back to the brother. he says he heard it from the girl's parents as well.
2) i searched for awhile and only ever found the same snippet. i never found any evidence or writings by the Jewish man, who presumably would have been named or heard from again somewhere, having experienced something so dramatic, presumably bringing about his conversion. if such evidence exists, i would like to see it.
i noticed his name was never given, so no follow-up can be done, unless he himself recorded it somewhere. in spite of the fact the account says she knew his name and more:
"She told me my first name and my last name, and she told me why I was in the city and what my occupation was in life, and then she called upon me to repent. She told me things about my life which it would be impossible for any person in this city to know"
we have an account in Acts of a girl who was able to proclaim things that were absolutely true:
Acts 16
16As we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl who had a spirit of divination and brought her owners much gain by fortune-telling. 17She followed Paul and us, crying out, “These men are servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to you the way of salvation.” 18And this she kept doing for many days. Paul, having become greatly annoyed, turned and said to the spirit, “I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.” And it came out that very hour."
3) i have read the accounts of the Azusa Street revival, including its historical precedents, and what followed...there's nothing about that event that i would accept as genuine or of the Holy Spirit.
In the early 1900's William Seymour had been taught about receiving the baptism with the Holy Ghost, (i.e. the gift of speaking in other tongues) by Charles Fox Parham in Kansas.
Seymour received the baptism at some point while at Bible school under Parham.
Seymour went to Los Angeles and began to preach about the Holy Spirit baptism in a barn/warehouse on Azusa.
notice all these people were "taught" by someone.
Charles Fox Parham was a shady character....i highly doubt God would have used him for something so important as what they called PENTECOST. eve he said, in the end that Azusa was overrun with spiritualist mediums and hypnotists who were attracted to the Azusa manifestations.
Contemporaries and theologians had this to say at the time (if we are using contemporary accounts):
G. Campbell Morgan described the Azusa Street activities as "the last vomit of Satan." (Holy Laughter to Holy Fire" by Michael L. Brown, pages 197&198)
R.A. Torrey declared that this new Pentecostal movement was "emphatically not of God, and founded by a Sodomite." (Holy Laughter to Holy Fire" by Michael L. Brown, pages 197&198)
H. A. Ironside said both the holiness and Pentecostal movements were "disgusting ... delusions and insanities." In 1912 he said of their meetings "pandemonium's where exhibitions worthy of a madhouse or a collection of howling dervishes," were causing a "heavy toll of lunacy and infidelity." (Holy Laughter to Holy Fire" by Michael L. Brown, pages 197&198)
W.B. Godbey said of the Azusa Street participants "Satan's preachers, jugglers, necromancers, enchanters, magicians, and all sorts or mendicants," and he claimed the movement was the result of spiritualism.(Holy Laughter to Holy Fire" by Michael L. Brown, pages 197&198)
Clarence Larkin "But the conduct of those possessed, in which they fall to the ground and writhe in contortions, causing disarrangement's of the clothing and disgraceful scenes, is more a characteristic of demon possession, than a work of the Holy Spirit. From what has been said we see that we are living in "Perilous Times," and that all about us are "Seducing Spirits," and that they will become more active as the Dispensation draws to its close, and that we must exert the greatest care lest we be led astray." (Holy Laughter to Holy Fire" by Michael L. Brown, pages 197&198)
.....
k. so sorry, that 3rd hand account coming from an event i already reject (and can trace to even more serious issues) doesn't convince me of anything.
zone
just because jewish kabbalists and such use this term which does not appear in the Bible, i wish we wouldn't use it.
The Shekinah is held by some to represent the feminine attributes of the presence of God (Shekinah being a feminine word in Hebrew), based especially on readings of the Talmud.[2]
wiki
The Shekinah is held by some to represent the feminine attributes of the presence of God (Shekinah being a feminine word in Hebrew), based especially on readings of the Talmud.[2]
wiki
oh purleeze......where is any of that written?
Rick, why you so willing to go so far to make this work?
it doesn't work.
.....
But a further question must be asked. How is it that tongues had the effect of edifying the speaker? Paul plainly states, ‘He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself’ (l Cor. 14:4). But what in the act of speaking in a tongue caused it to edify? Was it the physical vibration associated with the phenomenon of tongues-speaking that edified the speaker?
Was it the emotion accompanying the experience? Tongues, like prophecy, are a verbal gift; and verbal gifts edify by communicating understanding. Edification through the exercise of a verbal gift does not occur by the physical vibration of the oral chambers. It does not occur through the non-rational stirrings of the emotions. Edification through a verbal gift occurs instead by the speaker’s coming to understand and believe the truth that he speaks. Otherwise there is no edification.
Anyone who teaches or preaches the Word of God understands this rudimentary principle about spiritual edification. The preacher knows full well that he is not edified by the mere exercise of his gift for preaching. He must understand and believe what he says if edification for himself is to occur.
If this were not the case, a totally different concept of the way edification occurs would have to be envisaged. For if the Spirit can use merely the exercise of a verbal gift for the speaker’s edification apart from his understanding what he says, then the same effect could be experienced by the hearers as well as by the speaker. If the one who spoke in a tongue could be edified even while not understanding what he was saying, could not the congregation expect to be edified in the same way? If the sensations associated with uttering a sound like ‘quesrylespoyou’ have the capacity for edifying the speaker, why could not those same sensations vibrating in the ears of the hearer have the effect of edifying?
But an audience is not edified one whit, no matter how zealous the speaker may be, if the message is unintelligible. Paul makes this very point. No one is edified when no one understands (1 Cor. 14:2). Edification through a verbal gift is linked intrinsically to understanding the utterance.
In accordance with this principle, it must be concluded that tongues edified as they communicated the truth of God first to the speaker and then to the hearer. Apart from understanding, there was no edification. It was the revelational experience of the truth of God directly to the tongues-speaker that caused him to be edified. The experience of the tongues-speaker was a revelational experience in which God brought to him knowledge that had the effect of edifying him.
Tongues Today? by O. Palmer Robertson < click
ONE VERSE ON TONGUES OF ANGELS (hyperbole) establishes a whole denomination and theological (at times soteriological) system that's just out there.
come on folks....serious
i'll ask again - has anyone made Mt Shasta budge ONE INCH?
Rick, why you so willing to go so far to make this work?
it doesn't work.
.....
But a further question must be asked. How is it that tongues had the effect of edifying the speaker? Paul plainly states, ‘He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself’ (l Cor. 14:4). But what in the act of speaking in a tongue caused it to edify? Was it the physical vibration associated with the phenomenon of tongues-speaking that edified the speaker?
Was it the emotion accompanying the experience? Tongues, like prophecy, are a verbal gift; and verbal gifts edify by communicating understanding. Edification through the exercise of a verbal gift does not occur by the physical vibration of the oral chambers. It does not occur through the non-rational stirrings of the emotions. Edification through a verbal gift occurs instead by the speaker’s coming to understand and believe the truth that he speaks. Otherwise there is no edification.
Anyone who teaches or preaches the Word of God understands this rudimentary principle about spiritual edification. The preacher knows full well that he is not edified by the mere exercise of his gift for preaching. He must understand and believe what he says if edification for himself is to occur.
If this were not the case, a totally different concept of the way edification occurs would have to be envisaged. For if the Spirit can use merely the exercise of a verbal gift for the speaker’s edification apart from his understanding what he says, then the same effect could be experienced by the hearers as well as by the speaker. If the one who spoke in a tongue could be edified even while not understanding what he was saying, could not the congregation expect to be edified in the same way? If the sensations associated with uttering a sound like ‘quesrylespoyou’ have the capacity for edifying the speaker, why could not those same sensations vibrating in the ears of the hearer have the effect of edifying?
But an audience is not edified one whit, no matter how zealous the speaker may be, if the message is unintelligible. Paul makes this very point. No one is edified when no one understands (1 Cor. 14:2). Edification through a verbal gift is linked intrinsically to understanding the utterance.
In accordance with this principle, it must be concluded that tongues edified as they communicated the truth of God first to the speaker and then to the hearer. Apart from understanding, there was no edification. It was the revelational experience of the truth of God directly to the tongues-speaker that caused him to be edified. The experience of the tongues-speaker was a revelational experience in which God brought to him knowledge that had the effect of edifying him.
Tongues Today? by O. Palmer Robertson < click
ONE VERSE ON TONGUES OF ANGELS (hyperbole) establishes a whole denomination and theological (at times soteriological) system that's just out there.
come on folks....serious
i'll ask again - has anyone made Mt Shasta budge ONE INCH?
oh...let's go really slow.
a) this guy has decided to sit down and be quiet like paul said, even though he's stoked.
b) he has the gift of a language he didn't learn, and is receiving revelation about the Wonderful Works of God in that language
c) he's not speaking to men because paul already said, be quiet unless someone there knows the language or translates.
d) he can speak to God - because the man knows what the revelation is, WHY? God gave it to him. the man and God know the thought is.
e) in his spirit, since he has obeyed the command to be quiet, he speaks MYSTERIES:
this word MYSTERIES is used many times by Paul.
in every single case it means something which was not previously made known but is being made known.
NEW REVELATION.
not bothering to fetch the passges, go find them (behold! i show you a mystery! - listen up, i'm about to tell you something we didn't know until NOW)
f) so he's being quiet, praying to God (they understand each other), but the understanding he has is UNFRUITFUL for OTHERS (since......they.....can.....not....understand....him). paul just told the person WHY - they don't understand.
so the gifted language guy's understanding is unfruitful FOR THEM. not for him! what's the use of an unfruitful gift FOR ANYONE? if its unfruitful for the gifted guy - what's the good of it?
does this work AT ALL, in modern Pentecostalism, speaking in your prayer language, that Paul would say your UNDERSTANDING IS UNFRUITFUL?
why kind of God is THAT? that gives a gift which is UNFRUITFUL? how can it even edify the tongue talker if it is UNFRUITFUL? on any level? what spirit is
g) it says absolutely nowhere in scripture that anyone is ever edified by something they don't understand.
PLEASE MAKE THESE TWO VERSES MAKE SENSE IN PENTECOSTAL ANGELIC UNKNOWN PRAYER LANGUAGE:
"For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth,but my understanding is unfruitful."
"WHAT IS IT THEN? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also
huh? Paul...didn't you JUST say the tongue-talker's spirit would be being built up in someone even though his understanding is unfruitful (brain, thinking, understanding nil, empty, nothing)? does that edification of the spirit EVER come into the understanding part of the man? WHAT GOOD IS IT THEN? really...be honest.
then PAUL, why you say right after that pray with the angelic tongue prayer language and pray with understanding ALSO?
someone PLEASE tell me what this means in the angel tongue world?????
a) this guy has decided to sit down and be quiet like paul said, even though he's stoked.
b) he has the gift of a language he didn't learn, and is receiving revelation about the Wonderful Works of God in that language
c) he's not speaking to men because paul already said, be quiet unless someone there knows the language or translates.
d) he can speak to God - because the man knows what the revelation is, WHY? God gave it to him. the man and God know the thought is.
e) in his spirit, since he has obeyed the command to be quiet, he speaks MYSTERIES:
this word MYSTERIES is used many times by Paul.
in every single case it means something which was not previously made known but is being made known.
NEW REVELATION.
not bothering to fetch the passges, go find them (behold! i show you a mystery! - listen up, i'm about to tell you something we didn't know until NOW)
f) so he's being quiet, praying to God (they understand each other), but the understanding he has is UNFRUITFUL for OTHERS (since......they.....can.....not....understand....him). paul just told the person WHY - they don't understand.
so the gifted language guy's understanding is unfruitful FOR THEM. not for him! what's the use of an unfruitful gift FOR ANYONE? if its unfruitful for the gifted guy - what's the good of it?
does this work AT ALL, in modern Pentecostalism, speaking in your prayer language, that Paul would say your UNDERSTANDING IS UNFRUITFUL?
why kind of God is THAT? that gives a gift which is UNFRUITFUL? how can it even edify the tongue talker if it is UNFRUITFUL? on any level? what spirit is
g) it says absolutely nowhere in scripture that anyone is ever edified by something they don't understand.
PLEASE MAKE THESE TWO VERSES MAKE SENSE IN PENTECOSTAL ANGELIC UNKNOWN PRAYER LANGUAGE:
"For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth,but my understanding is unfruitful."
"WHAT IS IT THEN? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also
huh? Paul...didn't you JUST say the tongue-talker's spirit would be being built up in someone even though his understanding is unfruitful (brain, thinking, understanding nil, empty, nothing)? does that edification of the spirit EVER come into the understanding part of the man? WHAT GOOD IS IT THEN? really...be honest.
then PAUL, why you say right after that pray with the angelic tongue prayer language and pray with understanding ALSO?
someone PLEASE tell me what this means in the angel tongue world?????
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whatever... I have personally witnessed an individual predict approx. 2 weeks in advance to the day the occurrence of a world-significant event, which was (probably) reported by every news outlet in the world. If that's not prophecy to you, so be it. Do not ask for details; I am not inclined to provide them in this venue. You trust my other work (I think); you can trust this word far more.
Problem with this is that there are non-believers that do the same. It is not the business of the church to entertain the world with feats of "foresight". Ours is to proclaim the gospel. To tell that all men are sinners in Gods eyes. That all sinners deserve to go to hell. To tell that Jesus came into this world that men need not die but can receive from Him eternal life.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
For the cause of Christ
Roger