Exposed: The Textual Criticism of Bart Erhman, James White & Daniel Wallace

[calvinsx76]

As I have said (and others) you are only making assumptions and quite faulty ones aswell! The Christian church has the legal chain of custody[your terminology] (Not a very good one for the history of the transmission of scripture).

again I think even James White's elementary explanation in the video I posted halts your thesis in its tracks. Maybe your TC needs reviewing?

I see how you ignore my questions, questions obviously you cannot answer

Why do you only accept four gospels when there were hundreds published

What is your Criterion for ruling out the gnostic texts and holding to the only the 27.

Ireneaus is speaking to the transmission process of the scriptures, an eyewitness to the process, yet you quote James white as an authority on this process.

It's interesting that I document my assertion with the testimony of Ireneus and Tertullian. Please cite a document from the ancient world that support James white theory of the transmission process. I cite ancient witnesses from the apostolic churches, and you quote James White.

It's surprising you quote Spurgeon, a fellow Calvinist, yet the renaissance scholars didn't follow the method of James white, but supported the Ecclesiastical text received through the historical apostolic churches. In James white videos he discredits the entire work of Theodore beza based on one word in his text.

Theodore Beza is a much more faithful witnesses than James white, so is Ireaneus.

Since you are such are ardent defender of James white, can you please name the scribe that was corrupting all the texts, please I just need a name and locatation, a decree from a bishop. Please some empirical evidence.

 

[Angela53510]

I apologize if my grammar is not up to standard. Most of these posts have been answered from my mobile device.

I actually do hold an undergraduate in Accounting with a Masters in Statistics. So eat up. lol

I see you employ an adhominem argument, attack my grammar thus my hypothesis must be incorrect. I guessed you bypassed philosophy in your studies. Yet you fail to see the fallacy in your argument.

Nevertheless, your disdain for empirical evidence is worse than my grammar. Throughout my video I support my statements with documents from the historical church, councils, cannons and demonstrate my positions. Yet you ramble on, and assert what must first be proven. What student would ever submit a paper to his instructor and not provide supporting quotes from historical documents. As a teacher you would never accept research assignment without supporting credible citations.

Show me the documents from the second century that refute the positions of Ireaneus and Tertullian, not to mention the churches of North Africa.

So your really a teacher, that doesn't even adhere to basic principles of documenting your assertions. I'll take my bad grammar instead. Lol

Most here in this thread fail to even understand my basic argument.

I assume you were replying to me? A "reply with quote" or using my name might help.

I only criticized you, because when people come in here, with continued horrific spelling and grammar, and then claim to know everything about a topic, I think it goes to credibilty to show that you are not using undergrad English, let alone Master's degree level.

That was merely my personal critique of you, when you claimed to have a Master's degree. Because I am still not seeing it in your writing.

"So your really a teacher,". Do you know this is the wrong homonym? So you ARE really a teacher. Which when contracted is "So you're really a teacher." That is grade 6 grammar not graduate level English!

The next post, in which I address your complete lack of knowledge of Koine Greek, as evidenced by your not using it in any way. To say nothing of criticizing Daniel Wallace, when he is the leading authority in Greek in the world. How many of his books and papers have you actually read. I would challenge you to read "Greek Beyond the Basics" for a really thorough read of Greek grammar.

As for your historical references to the Early Church Fathers, did you know that their writings are not inspired? Do you know anything about textual criticism, relating to the complete catalogue of every extant manuscript, from all 4 families of early Greek? Perhaps you need to study that, before you come here with your ridiculous hypothesis.

Seriously, are you a troll?

And tell us whether you are KJV only? If you answer only one question, that would be it for me!

 

[bluto]

I have a question calvinx? How does having a Masters in Statistics and or in Accounting translate into knowing your Bible, Church History, what the ECF's taught and Scholarship in languages etc. as opposed to the credentials of the three gentlemen you named? Can you please explain that to us?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[phil36]

Just to say I am not an ardent defender of James White, I don't know how you came to that conclusion, but he does halt your argument in the video, which you can't refute. You hve made preconceived assumptions, but that is not refutation.

Regarding the Gospels, yes Irenaeus used only the 4 (3 synoptics and John), although he was not the only one (you are aware of that?). Regarding the Gnostics Irenaeus done a great job in refuting them..I am sure we can all agree with that. However, here is where you make a huge erroneous leap... you point to Irenaeus and his teachings as saying that there is an Apostolic succession in rightly handling Scripture, in other words an ecclesiastical authority of sorts. I say 'of sorts' because you are not being precise about who actually has that authority now! Plus were do you get the idea there were hundreds of [different] gospels published.. do you mean psuedographia and late false gospels?

Regarding Spurgeon he used the text he could get his hands on, probably like the erly church were not many had all of scripture in one compilation. And I am sure Spurgeon would want to know what the authors of scripture wrote rather than what some fallible ecclesiastical authority demands you believe.

Regarding James white and theodore Beza: again I am not defending James white - he is a scholar, I am not!

And regarding your last question about 'THE' scribe that was corrupting all the texts.. I havent a clue what you are talking about. Can you show me were James White said the was 'THE' scribe who corrupted all the texts. Unless your into King James onlyism.

Regarding your asking about a decree from a bishop, as I said my authority comes from Scripture not a man or an ecclesiastical body.

 

[Dino246]

I see how you ignore my questions, questions obviously you cannot answer ...

Theodore Beza is a much more faithful witnesses than James white, so is Ireaneus.

Since you are such are ardent defender of James white, can you please name the scribe that was corrupting all the texts, please I just need a name and locatation, a decree from a bishop. Please some empirical evidence.

Let's see... I'll overlook the poor grammar, spelling and punctuation, as Angela has already called you on that.

Your first sentence quoted here: "you ignore... you cannot answer". That is a non sequitur. You called someone else on a logical fallacy in an earlier post, so I'm calling out yours. Just because someone does not answer a question does not mean that they are unable to answer. Please drop the poor logic.

"Theodore Beza is a much more faithful witness than James White." By what standard, exactly? Do try to give something that is objective.

Finally, to your last passage quoted, what does James White have to do with an alleged scribe corrupting the text? Again, it's a non sequitur. Dr. White is quite capable of defending himself and his views, and has done so, publicly, many times. How many scholars have you debated?

I understand that you have a position, and believe you have some evidence to support it. However, you took the step to identify Drs. White, Wallace and Ehrman (an apostate, not even a Christian) and attack them by caricaturing them in your video(s). If that isn't an example of an ad hominem attack, I don't know what is. Take it up with them... directly.

 

[calvinsx76]

I assume you were replying to me? A "reply with quote" or using my name might help.

I only criticized you, because when people come in here, with continued horrific spelling and grammar, and then claim to know everything about a topic, I think it goes to credibilty to show that you are not using undergrad English, let alone Master's degree level.

That was merely my personal critique of you, when you claimed to have a Master's degree. Because I am still not seeing it in your writing.

"So your really a teacher,". Do you know this is the wrong homonym? So you ARE really a teacher. Which when contracted is "So you're really a teacher." That is grade 6 grammar not graduate level English!

The next post, in which I address your complete lack of knowledge of Koine Greek, as evidenced by your not using it in any way. To say nothing of criticizing Daniel Wallace, when he is the leading authority in Greek in the world. How many of his books and papers have you actually read. I would challenge you to read "Greek Beyond the Basics" for a really thorough read of Greek grammar.

As for your historical references to the Early Church Fathers, did you know that their writings are not inspired? Do you know anything about textual criticism, relating to the complete catalogue of every extant manuscript, from all 4 families of early Greek? Perhaps you need to study that, before you come here with your ridiculous hypothesis.

Seriously, are you a troll?

And tell us whether you are KJV only? If you answer only one question, that would be it for me!

I see you failed to answer my question regarding your lack of an empirical data. I am a least providing historical documentation from two second century witnesses. You have not provided any historical evidence from the first 4 centuries of Christianity

Who ever said that Ireneus and Tertullian writings were inspired. Daniel Wallace is not Inspired and you are not inspired either. Irenaeus and Tertullian published a legal argument defining how the apostolic churches guarded and preserved the scriptures received from the apostles. They had the support of the apostolic churches of North Africa and Asia Minor. Eusebius in his Church history attests to this system as well.

Daniel Wallace as the Leading Greek Authority in the World... Are you serious, are you aware that we still have the official Greek Churches founded by the apostles Peter and Paul. We still have the official Church of Antioch, we still have the Official Church of Alexandria. Are you saying Daniel Wallace has a better understanding of the Greek Texts than the official Greek Churches which still have their Greek Texts?

I doubt that Daniel Wallace would even make that same assertion. I actually met Daniel Wallace when he came down here to San Antonio during a conference in November 2016, he shows more respect and appreciation for these fathers he quotes in support of his arguments in defending his theological positions.

As someone who is committed to education, you really don't understand the central argument. At least Daniel Wallace and James White understand the position I am supporting is historical and they will all agree the renaissance scholars all subscribed to it and used it as the basis for their Greek Texts published in the 1500s, yet they will both say they support the scholarship of Bruce Metzger.

You should read Bruce Metzgers Book The Text of the New Testament it Transmission, Corruption and Restoration. Email James White and Daniel Wallace, they will tell you they subscribe to this methodology.

 

[phil36]

Hi Calvinsx76

Just out of curiosity. If you a re correct what Bible translation should we all use? and who's authority should we follow regarding this?

 

[calvinsx76]

Let's see... I'll overlook the poor grammar, spelling and punctuation, as Angela has already called you on that.

Your first sentence quoted here: "you ignore... you cannot answer". That is a non sequitur. You called someone else on a logical fallacy in an earlier post, so I'm calling out yours. Just because someone does not answer a question does not mean that they are unable to answer. Please drop the poor logic.

"Theodore Beza is a much more faithful witness than James White." By what standard, exactly? Do try to give something that is objective.

Finally, to your last passage quoted, what does James White have to do with an alleged scribe corrupting the text? Again, it's a non sequitur. Dr. White is quite capable of defending himself and his views, and has done so, publicly, many times. How many scholars have you debated?

I understand that you have a position, and believe you have some evidence to support it. However, you took the step to identify Drs. White, Wallace and Ehrman (an apostate, not even a Christian) and attack them by caricaturing them in your video(s). If that isn't an example of an ad hominem attack, I don't know what is. Take it up with them... directly.

There is a difference between attacking their positions and attacking the person. I am attacking their methodology, not the individuals. I didn't call them jerks or apostates...Remember I am only offering a response to their published claims. Daniel Wallace, James White and Daniel Wallace all assert that some unknown scribe add passages of scripture such as the last 12 verses of Mark, the woman in adultery, 1 John 5 7, and the list goes on. Now they need to prove that assertion by telling us who, when , how and when. They need to document that assertion. Because it is found in the majority of the apostolic texts, their answer is it must have been added by some scribe...but that's not empirical.

These scholars also use two Greek Texts Sinanticus and Vaticanus as witnesses that they base these conclusions on. As Greek Texts, they must establish that the historical apostolic Greek Church actually used these texts, because we have thousands of Greek Texts that counter those conclusions.


Characters are fun, I didn't draw them with three arms...I also created illustrations of the church fathers.


Yes, I do have Golemn with them with their precious Vaticanus.. I don't think they will get but hurt from that image.

Remember I am just responding to their assertions.

My videos are public with over 1000 views. James White is aware of these Videos, he can issue an official response. I believe James doesn't want to have to deal with the arguments of Ireaneus and Tertullian. It's not me they are responding too, but the historic position of the apostolic churches.

 

[phil36]

Hi Calvinsx76 (just a reminder)

Just out of curiosity. If you a re correct what Bible translation should we all use? and who's authority should we follow regarding this?

 

[calvinsx76]

Hi Calvinsx76

Just out of curiosity. If you a re correct what Bible translation should we all use? and who's authority should we follow regarding this?

Well Martin Luther used Erasmus for his German Translation, and William Tyndale used Erasmus Greek Text as well.

We can use the Greek Text of Robert Stephanus, or Cardinal Ximenez Polygot bible. We can even used Theodore Beza Text, we can even use the Vulgate, John Wycliffe used that for his translation.

Are you opposed to these Greek Texts and editions

The difference between these texts and James White/Daniel Wallace texts is the origins which they are derived.

That is the central difference.

Would you agree that bible translations are now in the hands of publishing companies.

Their system in determining which verses get used allows us to make any translation we desire.

There is a conflict of interest.

 

[Dino246]

... Now they need to prove that assertion by telling us who, when , how and when. They need to document that assertion. Because it is found in the majority of the apostolic texts, their answer is it must have been added by some scribe...but that's not empirical.

They do not need to prove their assertion by answering your questions, if it is even possible. As you are probably aware, the identity of most scribes is lost to history. If a passage is in one manuscript and not in another, then it is logical to conclude that either a scribe removed it (intentionally or not) or added it (intentionally). One does not need to solve the mystery to run with a completely-reasonable conclusion.

Your logic here is akin to that of a nasty interrogator: "If you didn't kill the man, then who did?" The accused does not need to identify the guilty to prove his own innocence.

These scholars also use two Greek Texts Sinanticus and Vaticanus as witnesses that they base these conclusions on. As Greek Texts, they must establish that the historical apostolic Greek Church actually used these texts, because we have thousands of Greek Texts that counter those conclusions.

Only according to your logic. The fact that a manuscript exists certainly doesn't prove its use by the church, but the dearth of attestation does not prove its non-use. Remember, the early Moslems effectively erased the existence of the church, and its documents, in many places.

Characters are fun, I didn't draw them with three arms...I also created illustrations of the church fathers. Yes, I do have Golemn with them with their precious Vaticanus.. I don't think they will get but hurt from that image. Remember I am just responding to their assertions.

Caricatures are not characters. Caricatures are distorted simplifications usually designed to mock their subjects. If you want to be taken seriously, then save the "fun" animations of living people for your personal play time.

My videos are public with over 1000 views. James White is aware of these Videos, he can issue an official response. I believe James doesn't want to have to deal with the arguments of Ireaneus and Tertullian. It's not me they are responding too, but the historic position of the apostolic churches.

Dr. White reviewed one of your videos on his program. That is as close to an official response as they warrant. You would do better to contact these three men directly rather than trying to promote your material here and throwing shade at anyone who doesn't completely agree with you.

 

[Dino246]

Well Martin Luther used Erasmus for his German Translation, and William Tyndale used Erasmus Greek Text as well.

We can use the Greek Text of Robert Stephanus, or Cardinal Ximenez Polygot bible. We can even used Theodore Beza Text, we can even use the Vulgate, John Wycliffe used that for his translation.

Are you opposed to these Greek Texts and editions

I find it interesting that you have criticized several people for not answering your questions... and see that you have not answered Phil's. Instead, you dodged it.

 

[phil36]

Well Martin Luther used Erasmus for his German Translation, and William Tyndale used Erasmus Greek Text as well.

We can use the Greek Text of Robert Stephanus, or Cardinal Ximenez Polygot bible. We can even used Theodore Beza Text, we can even use the Vulgate, John Wycliffe used that for his translation.




Are you opposed to these Greek Texts and editions

The difference between these texts and James White/Daniel Wallace texts is the origins which they are derived.

That is the central difference.

Would you agree that bible translations are now in the hands of publishing companies.

Their system in determining which verses get used allows us to make any translation we desire.

There is a conflict of interest.

Nothing really wrong with the TR, it has many mistakes but hey ho..... and the Vulgate served the church well for almost a 1000 years, we could say that if you wanted a standard the Vulgate would certainly override the King James..wouldn't you agree?


So what English translation that a dum guy like me can read would you recommend?

 

[Angela53510]

Phil, that is the one question that I really need and want answered.

What is the translation that you are using, OP? Which is the best translation?

 

[sparkman]

James White reviewed your video... and it took him all of a couple of minutes to point out serious errors in it. I would recommend doing some research... with unbiased sources.

YouTube authorities crack me up..nowadays anyone with video editing ability can propose preposterous things and criticize sound teachers (not including Ehrman in the sounds teachers..he's a heretic).

 

[calvinsx76]

Nothing really wrong with the TR, it has many mistakes but hey ho..... and the Vulgate served the church well for almost a 1000 years, we could say that if you wanted a standard the Vulgate would certainly override the King James..wouldn't you agree?


So what English translation that a dum guy like me can read would you recommend?

Well remember the AV Scholars used the Greek Text of Stephanus, they had the Vulgate, they had the text of Theodore Beza, they had great TR Texts.

I do respect the contributions of Jerome, but I wouldn't go that far.

Why such a disdain for the authorized version, they based it on the TR text as well.

But, I do love the Geneva Bible with the Calvinistic notes. I would recommend that English translation for you. It's based on the TR as well.

But I'm glad support Jerome, we can agree on something.

You do have to admit, the English voice over I used in the videos is a nice change of pace than the other videos on Textual Criticism. It's hard watching someone sitting at their computer talking into a microphone with a book collection for over an hour.

At least my videos are entertaining. My family were good friends with Theodore Letis, who also defended the TR Text.

 

[sparkman]

Is this one of your videos?

 

[phil36]

Well remember the AV Scholars used the Greek Text of Stephanus, they had the Vulgate, they had the text of Theodore Beza, they had great TR Texts.

I do respect the contributions of Jerome, but I wouldn't go that far.

Why such a disdain for the authorized version, they based it on the TR text as well.

But, I do love the Geneva Bible with the Calvinistic notes. I would recommend that English translation for you. It's based on the TR as well.

But I'm glad support Jerome, we can agree on something.

You do have to admit, the English voice over I used in the videos is a nice change of pace than the other videos on Textual Criticism. It's hard watching someone sitting at their computer talking into a microphone with a book collection for over an hour.

At least my videos are entertaining. My family were good friends with Theodore Letis, who also defended the TR Text.

And there we have it folks..

And no, I did not find your videos entertaining they are full of inaccuracies.

And why do you think I have such disdain for the King James Bible or the Bible Translation authorised by King James. I don't! It served the church well for half the length of time as the vulgate and still does. Yet there are more reliable manuscripts available that those bible translators would have loved to have used..including Erasmus.


And just as I thought ''ecclesastical'' tut tut tut.

BTW, James White says you are being dishonest can you prove him wrong?

 

[calvinsx76]

Well my videos have smoked him out. Can you send me the link to this so I can officially respond to him on his site.

 

[phil36]

Well my videos have smoked him out. Can you send me the link to this so I can officially respond to him on his site.

Hi Calvinsx76.

No harm, but I think you are suffering from a bit of hubris..... Your theories are nonsense.