Exposing the heresy of works-based salvation and justification by the Law

[MarcR]

Wow, you just called scripture garbage !!!!

For all I did was post the whole epistle of Jude with no personal comments of my own, and just highlighted the key points in that epistle. And your response back to Jude is that is garbage.......And it is not out of context as Jude opens up clearly saying what the whole epistle is about, our common salvation (eternal life).

Ken,

I did not see Viligant_Warrior calling Scripture garbage. I saw him, in frustration, calling the attitude and the intent behind your post. garbage. While I feel the need to try to respond more gently I find his basic premise sound. Collecting Scriptures that standing in disjunction appear to support a doctrinal statement only proves you argue skillfully; but doesn't prove your point.

i.e.

Judas took a rope and hanged himself. Go thou and do likewise. What thou are about to do do quickly. are all Scripture; but are not doctrinal foundation for a suicide cult.

 

[ChristInUs]

Self righteousness is a slippery sneaking snake. Most churches today even preach self righteousness as they have nothing to do with the cross. We want to place faith in our works and say look at me and what I have done or doing. Even water baptism can become self righteousness and tithing and prayer and reading the word or even fasting all can become self righteousness. Why because we place our faith in our self rather than the work of the cross.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Ken,

I did not see Viligant_Warrior calling Scripture garbage. I saw him, in frustration, calling the attitude and the intent behind your post. garbage. While I feel the need to try to respond more gently I find his basic premise sound. Collecting Scriptures that standing in disjunction appear to support a doctrinal statement only proves you argue skillfully; but doesn't prove your point.

i.e.

Judas took a rope and hanged himself. Go thou and do likewise. What thou are about to do do quickly. are all Scripture; but are not doctrinal foundation for a suicide cult.

Then you did not read my post that he was responding to, as all I did in that post was give the whole epistle of Jude and Exodus 32:33 because Jude refers back to the Exodus and what happened to those who turned their back on God to the false idol. The whole epistle of Jude is about eternal life salvation......

I did not give a collection of scriptures, or any commentary to go along with them.
His response was just to me posting an epistle from Jude, if he did not like what was posted and what Jude said that is between him and God and not me. And if he gets frustrated just from another posting a scriptural passage without that person giving commentary with it. Then it is obvious he doesn't like that passage.


You have the wrong Judas, as there was 2 Judases that followed Jesus, not one.
You have Judas and Judas Thaddeus, and Judas Thaddeus is the one who wrote this epistle. Not the Judas who hung himself for betraying Jesus. And the highlighted underlined part of your last statement about go do likewise, if they is directed at me then that shows your unChristian attitude toward another.
The Judas that wrote this epistle was beaten to death in Mesopotamia.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

Once again though I did not remove, or add from scripture, nor did I give personal opinion.

Without the context of the rest of the Bible, Jude might appear to you as though it supports your views. It does not. That is, in fact, "lifting out of context" by attempting to let the shortest book in the New Testament stand alone as though it is self-evident, and then to say "Scripture supports my false doctrine of works-based/lost salvation" but I assure you, Brother Ken, it does not. Nothing you say actually supports your false doctrine, despite your many, many confabulations to make it do so.

(Look the word up. I did not call you an intentional liar.)

 

[kennethcadwell]

Self righteousness is a slippery sneaking snake. Most churches today even preach self righteousness as they have nothing to do with the cross. We want to place faith in our works and say look at me and what I have done or doing. Even water baptism can become self righteousness and tithing and prayer and reading the word or even fasting all can become self righteousness. Why because we place our faith in our self rather than the work of the cross.

Yes that is true, but the issue is to that some go to the other extreme and cancel out all works and make it all a dirty subject. The bible clearly shows a true faith is an active faith, and James says faith without works is dead because the Lord working in and through us will show out in our actions, words, and yes our works.
To say works are not part of faith is contrary to what James said, as he showed that one's faith is dead and not truly rooted in the Lord if it does not have works. People confuse self righteousness with those who defend the active side of faith as James did, even Paul stated over and over again a true born again believer will show self control. He even gives us in Galatians 5 what the fruits of the Spirit are that would be evident in a true born again believer.

 

[dcontroversal]

The whole epistle of Jude is about contending for the faith because of false teachers and the heresies that they spread.....1st on the list is CAIN and human effort/works for acceptance followed by those who oppose the ones called of God to lead and preach and those who are in it for the money.......! And the warning of punishment is directed at those who would teach heretical dogma!

Then you did not read my post that he was responding to, as all I did in that post was give the whole epistle of Jude and Exodus 32:33 because Jude refers back to the Exodus and what happened to those who turned their back on God to the false idol. The whole epistle of Jude is about eternal life salvation......

I did not give a collection of scriptures, or any commentary to go along with them.
His response was just to me posting an epistle from Jude, if he did not like what was posted and what Jude said that is between him and God and not me. And if he gets frustrated just from another posting a scriptural passage without that person giving commentary with it. Then it is obvious he doesn't like that passage.


You have the wrong Judas, as there was 2 Judases that followed Jesus, not one.
You have Judas and Judas Thaddeus, and Judas Thaddeus is the one who wrote this epistle. Not the Judas who hung himself for betraying Jesus. And the highlighted underlined part of your last statement about go do likewise, if they is directed at me then that shows your unChristian attitude toward another.
The Judas that wrote this epistle was beaten to death in Mesopotamia.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Without the context of the rest of the Bible, Jude might appear to you as though it supports your views. It does not. That is, in fact, "lifting out of context" by attempting to let the shortest book in the New Testament stand alone as though it is self-evident, and then to say "Scripture supports my false doctrine of works-based/lost salvation" but I assure you, Brother Ken, it does not. Nothing you say actually supports your false doctrine, despite your many, many confabulations to make it do so.

(Look the word up. I did not call you an intentional liar.)

It is not lifting it out of context when he tells us clearly what his epistle is about;

Jude 1:3
Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.


This is not talking about timely salvation's, or how different people are saved out of their different situations in the world.
This is talking the common salvation that all believers share rather Jew or Gentile, and that is eternal life through the Lord Jesus Christ.
Jude goes into giving us different examples, and one of them being the Exodus and those He saved out of Egypt that then turned their back on God to worship the false idol golden calf. Jude says He clearly destroyed them, and when you go back to Exodus 32 that speaks of this event that Jude is referring to. It says in verse 33 that God blotted them out of the book of Life, and if one's name is not in the book of Life they do not have eternal life/salvation. So what I gave was not out of context because it all comes straight from the bible and is God's word. There is no misunderstanding these scripts as they are straight forward.......They were destroyed, they were blotted out of the book of Life !!!!

 

[kennethcadwell]

The whole epistle of Jude is about contending for the faith because of false teachers and the heresies that they spread.....1st on the list is CAIN and human effort/works for acceptance followed by those who oppose the ones called of God to lead and preach and those who are in it for the money.......! And the warning of punishment is directed at those who would teach heretical dogma!

He is talking to fellow brothers and sisters in Christ...........verses 1-3

He lets us know he is talking about salvation.......verse 3

He warns us of false teachers that have changed His grace to lewdness (sinful ways)......verse 4

First on the list is the Egyptians not Cain, and he shows how God destroyed them for turning away........verse 5

Then the fallen angels, Sodom and Gomorrah, Cain then comes in at verse 11.
Jude says here they do stuff for self, greed, defiling of the flesh, and so on....Turning the grace of God to a free reign to sin and teachings others the same. This has nothing to do with works of love that come and go hand and hand with a true born again faith.

Then Jude in verse 21 tells the brethren to keep ourselves in the love of God, and keep looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

 

[dcontroversal]

No doubt and they are all compared to the false teachers found in Cain, Baalam and Korah......and encourages the ones SAVED to contend for the faith that has been ONCE delivered unto the saints!

He is talking to fellow brothers and sisters in Christ...........verses 1-3

He lets us know he is talking about salvation.......verse 3

He warns us of false teachers that have changed His grace to lewdness (sinful ways)......verse 4

First on the list is the Egyptians not Cain, and he shows how God destroyed them for turning away........verse 5

Then the fallen angels, Sodom and Gomorrah, Cain then comes in at verse 11.
Jude says here they do stuff for self, greed, defiling of the flesh, and so on....Turning the grace of God to a free reign to sin and teachings others the same. This has nothing to do with works of love that come and go hand and hand with a true born again faith.

Then Jude in verse 21 tells the brethren to keep ourselves in the love of God, and keep looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

 

[kennethcadwell]

No doubt and they are all compared to the false teachers found in Cain, Baalam and Korah......and encourages the ones SAVED to contend for the faith that has been ONCE delivered unto the saints!

Yes but it is posed as a warning to contend for the faith because if they fall for these same false teachings, and turn away from God then they will as them not end up with salvation..................

 

[dcontroversal]

Yes but it is posed as a warning to contend for the faith because if they fall for these same false teachings, and turn away from God then they will as them not end up with salvation..................

No matter how many times you slice it up and dice the word Kenneth...you cannot lose salvation as it is a once for all act with present continuing results....and I will add...if you can lose it then YOU must DO SOMETHING to KEEP it or GAIN it back....same circular reasoning that you consistently deny.....your very view mimics CAIN's theology and a works based acceptance before GOD....open your eyes Kenneth...serious!

 

[kennethcadwell]

No matter how many times you slice it up and dice the word Kenneth...you cannot lose salvation as it is a once for all act with present continuing results....and I will add...if you can lose it then YOU must DO SOMETHING to KEEP it or GAIN it back....same circular reasoning that you consistently deny.....your very view mimics CAIN's theology and a works based acceptance before GOD....open your eyes Kenneth...serious!

I am not slicing up the word of God;

What does they were blotted out of the book of Life mean to you ?

 

[dcontroversal]

I am not slicing up the word of God;

What does they were blotted out of the book of Life mean to you ?

I think if your really had the truth Kenneth you would realize a few things......One being that it seems all were written in the book and only removed upon disbelief and or a rejection of Christ.....for one!

 

[kennethcadwell]

I think if your really had the truth Kenneth you would realize a few things......One being that it seems all were written in the book and only removed upon disbelief and or a rejection of Christ.....for one!

Yes but the story of the Exodus was the were saved by God, and in His favor until they turned back away to the false idol.
If they would have stayed in His favor, or like Paul mentioned in Romans 11:22 continued in His kindness, they would have ended up with salvation. Because they did not and turned back to idol worship they were destroyed and blotted out of the book of Life......

 

[Mitspa]

Yes but the story of the Exodus was the were saved by God, and in His favor until they turned back away to the false idol.
If they would have stayed in His favor, or like Paul mentioned in Romans 11:22 continued in His kindness, they would have ended up with salvation. Because they did not and turned back to idol worship they were destroyed and blotted out of the book of Life......

No Kenneth it says "unbelief"....

Heb 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

In context of the Book of Hebrews ...to return to the works of the law. "the law is not of faith''

 

[MarcR]

Then you did not read my post that he was responding to, as all I did in that post was give the whole epistle of Jude and Exodus 32:33 because Jude refers back to the Exodus and what happened to those who turned their back on God to the false idol. The whole epistle of Jude is about eternal life salvation......

I did not give a collection of scriptures, or any commentary to go along with them.
His response was just to me posting an epistle from Jude, if he did not like what was posted and what Jude said that is between him and God and not me. And if he gets frustrated just from another posting a scriptural passage without that person giving commentary with it. Then it is obvious he doesn't like that passage.


You have the wrong Judas, as there was 2 Judases that followed Jesus, not one.
You have Judas and Judas Thaddeus, and Judas Thaddeus is the one who wrote this epistle. Not the Judas who hung himself for betraying Jesus. And the highlighted underlined part of your last statement about go do likewise, if they is directed at me then that shows your unChristian attitude toward another.
The Judas that wrote this epistle was beaten to death in Mesopotamia.

Ken,

My intent was to point out that Jude, writing to believers, was not addressing salvation issues. Exodus, written to people under the Law was not addressing salvation issues. It should have been obvious that I know Scripture well enough to differentiate between Judas and Jude. The scriptures I chose were chosen as nothing more than an example of building doctrine without proper foundation

 

[kennethcadwell]

No Kenneth it says "unbelief"....

Heb 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

In context of the Book of Hebrews ...to return to the works of the law. "the law is not of faith''

Yes it does say that in that part of scripture, but is the unbelief that is being mentioned here in Hebrews?
The unbelief is disobedience because they did not continue in His favor, kindness, grace..........

Hebrews 3:18
And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient?

Hebrews 3:19
So we see they could not enter in because of unbelief

Hebrews 4:6
Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,


The context of the unbelief in Hebrews 3 and 4 are about disobedience, which still goes hand in hand with the discussion.
As God saved them out of Egypt as Jude says, and then after they had been saved by God instead of staying in His kindness/favor they turned back away from Him to idol worship. Those who repented and came back to God in the wilderness were not destroyed and blotted out. Those who did not come back to God and continue in His kindness were blotted out of the book of Life for sinning against God by doing that idol worship.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Ken,

My intent was to point out that Jude, writing to believers, was not addressing salvation issues. Exodus, written to people under the Law was not addressing salvation issues. It should have been obvious that I know Scripture well enough to differentiate between Judas and Jude. The scriptures I chose were chosen as nothing more than an example of building doctrine without proper foundation

Yes he was addressing salvation issues, as look at his opening scripture in 3;

Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.


He is saying he needed to write to them concerning salvation because that they needed to contend for the faith, and not fall for the deceptions of the false teacher or their fate will be as such as those like those in the wilderness.

 

[Brighthouse]

I have looked at all the posts,and do not understand most of what some are looking to get across?So I will deal with the person who started this post Viligant_Warrior and see if we can all reason together. Jesus provided salvation to us( eph 2:8-10) as a brother has already put up.

Now what is that grace spoken of here? grace instructs!!( titus 2:11-12) If we believe, which is our only work( john 6:28-29) then action by that work of belief is needed. The faith part has already been done by our Jesus,( rom 12:3) Jesus gave each the same measure of faith,for if he did not, then he would be going against his own word!!( acts 10:34) ( rom 2:11)but not the belief part!( rom 10:10)We do this! Jesus does not.

For in our own belief,our action associated with what Jesus has already preformed for us,we are saved.Example Abraham ( james 2:19-26)saying one is a believer does not make one a believer! Confession is made unto an action of belief!( james 1:22) Abraham was not called a friend of God because he said he was a believer,he was called a friend of God by the action associated with his words! verse 21-26!!)

Jesus gave us everything that pertains to life and godliness!!( 2 peter 1:3-11) If we choose not to believe this,it does not affect Jesus,it only affects us,and if we believe,then action is done to confirm our own belief upon all our Jesus has already done for us! So while very true no natural work of ours gains salvation,our belief in what Jesus has done sure does! ( john 13:34-35!!!)verse 35 BY THIS!!! all men will know that you are my disciples,IF YOU!!! ( meaning we have to do something!!!) ACT upon Jesus love in us!!( 1 cor 13:4-8)

Many have heard grace but really as most of you already know, have no idea what grace is!I repeat,Grace instructs us to do something!( titus 2:12) If we do, then we truly belief! If we follow verse 12 we have grace,and if we do not follow verse we do not have grace! Simple to me. lol

 

[Mitspa]

I have looked at all the posts,and do not understand most of what some are looking to get across?So I will deal with the person who started this post Viligant_Warrior and see if we can all reason together. Jesus provided salvation to us( eph 2:8-10) as a brother has already put up.

Now what is that grace spoken of here? grace instructs!!( titus 2:11-12) If we believe, which is our only work( john 6:28-29) then action by that work of belief is needed. The faith part has already been done by our Jesus,( rom 12:3) Jesus gave each the same measure of faith,for if he did not, then he would be going against his own word!!( acts 10:34) ( rom 2:11)but not the belief part!( rom 10:10)We do this! Jesus does not.

For in our own belief,our action associated with what Jesus has already preformed for us,we are saved.Example Abraham ( james 2:19-26)saying one is a believer does not make one a believer! Confession is made unto an action of belief!( james 1:22) Abraham was not called a friend of God because he said he was a believer,he was called a friend of God by the action associated with his words! verse 21-26!!)

Jesus gave us everything that pertains to life and godliness!!( 2 peter 1:3-11) If we choose not to believe this,it does not affect Jesus,it only affects us,and if we believe,then action is done to confirm our own belief upon all our Jesus has already done for us! So while very true no natural work of ours gains salvation,our belief in what Jesus has done sure does! ( john 13:34-35!!!)verse 35 BY THIS!!! all men will know that you are my disciples,IF YOU!!! ( meaning we have to do something!!!) ACT upon Jesus love in us!!( 1 cor 13:4-8)

Many have heard grace but really as most of you already know, have no idea what grace is!I repeat,Grace instructs us to do something!( titus 2:12) If we do, then we truly belief! If we follow verse 12 we have grace,and if we do not follow verse we do not have grace! Simple to me. lol

There is a lot written about grace and what it is unto the believer...I don't see folks on the grace side that struggle to understand grace, but those on the works (of law) side that seem to fall from the grace of God... Graces teaches us to deny ungodliness, yes! But one has to understand the doctrines of grace in relation to the doctrine of works for grace to teach.

In effect grace teaches us the life in the Spirit...the works of the law, teaches folks to depend upon and rely on the flesh of man.