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It's was written for our understanding as Paul says, however, not everything written was written to all people. Jesus said some things that only pertained to the apostles. Paul said some things that only applied to the Corinthians. If one claims everything is applicable to every person then they must contend that all Christians are carnal and not spiritual.
And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? (1Co 3:1-3 KJV)
Would you apply this passage to every single Christian? I doubt you would. It was written specifically to the Corinthians, we can learn from it but it is not addressing every single Christian. Likewise when Paul speaks of not being saved by works he is addressing a specific problem that was prevalent in his day, that being the Jews telling the Gentiles that in addition to faith in Christ they also needed to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses.
And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. (Act 15:1-2 KJV)
These Jews were telling Gentiles that they needed to be circumcised or they couldn't be saved. There were also Jewish believers is Jerusalem that said the same thing.
But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. (Act 15:5 KJV)
These are the works that Paul is speaking of when he says one is not saved by works. He's not talking about doing good deeds but rather keeping the Law. As a matter of fact Paul said that those who continue in well doing are seeking eternal life. If works played no role in salvation then doing good works wouldn't be seeking eternal life.
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
(Rom 2:5-7 KJV)
And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? (1Co 3:1-3 KJV)
Would you apply this passage to every single Christian? I doubt you would. It was written specifically to the Corinthians, we can learn from it but it is not addressing every single Christian. Likewise when Paul speaks of not being saved by works he is addressing a specific problem that was prevalent in his day, that being the Jews telling the Gentiles that in addition to faith in Christ they also needed to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses.
And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. (Act 15:1-2 KJV)
These Jews were telling Gentiles that they needed to be circumcised or they couldn't be saved. There were also Jewish believers is Jerusalem that said the same thing.
But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. (Act 15:5 KJV)
These are the works that Paul is speaking of when he says one is not saved by works. He's not talking about doing good deeds but rather keeping the Law. As a matter of fact Paul said that those who continue in well doing are seeking eternal life. If works played no role in salvation then doing good works wouldn't be seeking eternal life.
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
(Rom 2:5-7 KJV)
Deuteronomy 18:18-19, "I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it"
"listen" is word #8085 שָׁמַע shama` {shaw-mah'}
Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.)
Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) - 1) to hear, listen to, obey
Yahchanan (John) 4:25-26, "The woman said to Him; I know that the Messiah comes, and when He comes, He will tell us all things. Yahshua said to her: I am He speaking to you."
"listen" is word #8085 שָׁמַע shama` {shaw-mah'}
Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.)
Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) - 1) to hear, listen to, obey
Yahchanan (John) 4:25-26, "The woman said to Him; I know that the Messiah comes, and when He comes, He will tell us all things. Yahshua said to her: I am He speaking to you."
J
every single passage you listed is absolutely applicable to every Christian in some way. "Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved." The same exact scenario is applicable to this forum.....same premise, different players, insert any work you wish for circumcised and BANG...your in the 21st century issues. Gods word doesn't change, only the time and the "players".
J
certainly I have a choice, but when God changes your heart in a VERY radical way, you no longer want the former things because they are empty, when you fall in love, you want to please Him. I feel certain that my beliefs are conflicting to you because SO many claim His name and their lives demonstrate little to no resemblance of Christ, that is NOT an accurate representation of his transforming power and love, the only source in which there is genuine freedom.
No, you don't insert any work. Paul was addressing a specific problem that was prevalent in his day. If you read acts 15 you'll see that he went to Jerusalem to the other apostles to address this problem. It was such an issue the the Holy Spirit prompted him to go.
One of the reasons that there is so much error in Christianity today is because Christians don't handle the text properly, they proof text, take passages out of context, and claim doctrines that are opposed to Scripture. Paul said that /god would judge everyone according to their deeds and the judgment result is either, eternal life or condemnation and wrath. So, to say works play no role in salvation is to oppose both Paul and the Scriptures. Actually, it also opposes what Jesus said.
One of the reasons that there is so much error in Christianity today is because Christians don't handle the text properly, they proof text, take passages out of context, and claim doctrines that are opposed to Scripture. Paul said that /god would judge everyone according to their deeds and the judgment result is either, eternal life or condemnation and wrath. So, to say works play no role in salvation is to oppose both Paul and the Scriptures. Actually, it also opposes what Jesus said.
Really, where does Scripture say that? If people would listen to what the text says instead of telling it what it says there'd be a lot more unity in the Christian faith. Paul told the Corinthians that all that the Jews had gone through in the wilderness was an example for the Christian.
Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. {followed...: or, went with them}
5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. {our...: Gr. our figures}
7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. (1Co 10:1-11 KJV)
However, I you have not addressed the contradiction that your position creates with the Scriptures. Paul said that God will judge everyone according to their deeds. He said those who continue in well doing are seeking eternal life those who don't, indignation and wrath. This statement flatly contradicts the idea that works play no role in salvation. Likewise Jesus told the apostles, when speaking of entering the kingdom, to "strive" to enter in. To strive is to do things to accomplish a goal.
It's really sad that so many have bought into this Reformation teaching because it is so far from what the Scriptures teach. This idea didn't even enter the church until around the 1500's, that's over 1400 years after Christ. If a doctrine doesn't appear until 1400 years after the event it's pretty certain it's wrong.
Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. {followed...: or, went with them}
5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. {our...: Gr. our figures}
7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. (1Co 10:1-11 KJV)
However, I you have not addressed the contradiction that your position creates with the Scriptures. Paul said that God will judge everyone according to their deeds. He said those who continue in well doing are seeking eternal life those who don't, indignation and wrath. This statement flatly contradicts the idea that works play no role in salvation. Likewise Jesus told the apostles, when speaking of entering the kingdom, to "strive" to enter in. To strive is to do things to accomplish a goal.
It's really sad that so many have bought into this Reformation teaching because it is so far from what the Scriptures teach. This idea didn't even enter the church until around the 1500's, that's over 1400 years after Christ. If a doctrine doesn't appear until 1400 years after the event it's pretty certain it's wrong.
Picking out snippets of scripture to support one's own ideas is not a good practice
The study of the Lord's Word is an ongoing process with objective to grasp the bigger and more comprehensive picture
Best practice .... choose a subject and then search for all of the scriptures before drawing conclusions
There are some good software search engines for the purpose
Scripture picking can be misleading .... especially if you are being led by someone with an agenda
The study of the Lord's Word is an ongoing process with objective to grasp the bigger and more comprehensive picture
Best practice .... choose a subject and then search for all of the scriptures before drawing conclusions
There are some good software search engines for the purpose
Scripture picking can be misleading .... especially if you are being led by someone with an agenda
I'm sorry Straightshot but that's not correct. Paul explicitly stated that everyone will be judged on their deeds and the according to Paul that judgment ends in either eternal life or indignation and wrath.
This "No Works" doctrine is as I've pointed out a misunderstanding of Paul's teaching. Martin Luther is the one who started this "Faith Alone" doctrine, not Scripture. He either didn't understand what Paul was addressing or He did and twisted the teaching to fit his doctrine, either way it's not what the Scriptures teach.
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; (Rom 2:5-9 KJV)
23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: (Luk 13:23-25 KJV)
This "No Works" doctrine is as I've pointed out a misunderstanding of Paul's teaching. Martin Luther is the one who started this "Faith Alone" doctrine, not Scripture. He either didn't understand what Paul was addressing or He did and twisted the teaching to fit his doctrine, either way it's not what the Scriptures teach.
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; (Rom 2:5-9 KJV)
23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: (Luk 13:23-25 KJV)
K
That is not exactly true either.
Sin leads to death, and those sins is what was taught in the law. The law was our tutor to show us right from wrong, and now that Jesus came we should no longer need that tutor. We should know, but because of the evil that is in our hearts Jesus had to come to teach us a better way to live. To walk in love, and not by a written ordinance.
The Lord Jesus does judge us by our works, and He makes it very clear on this.
2 Corinthians 5:10
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad”
1 Corinthians 3:11–15
11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
We will be judged on our works to determine rewards that we will get in heaven, however before we get to heaven and still living in the flesh our works are apart of our faith that show rather we have salvation or not. If you say you have faith, but only produce bad works their is no salvation.
"The Lord Jesus does judge us by our works, and He makes it very clear on this"
Do I really need to respond?
Works and rewards are a completely different issue and have nothing to do with salvation
The true believer in Jesus Christ is "set free" from being judged by the law
Is one then to continue living a worldly life style?
..... no way .... and those that walk the talk stay out
Sometimes I am really vexed by some of your comments Kenneth
Do I really need to respond?
Works and rewards are a completely different issue and have nothing to do with salvation
The true believer in Jesus Christ is "set free" from being judged by the law
Is one then to continue living a worldly life style?
..... no way .... and those that walk the talk stay out
Sometimes I am really vexed by some of your comments Kenneth
Wrong tree, but if you want to look at the big picture we can. How big do you want to go? We can look at God's plan in the Scriptures or we can stay with this issue. If we're gonna look at the whole of Scripture, which actually, is the proper way to study a subject, we need to do just that.
One thing we need to address is why this doctrine of "No Works" contradicts the teaching of Paul, of Jesus, and of James.
Another thing that must be addressed is that drawing this doctrine from Paul's words creates a contradiction with other statements he made.
James said that man is not justified by faith alone. The "Only" time the phrase "faith alone" appears in the Scriptures is when James says a man in "Not" justified by faith alone.
So, when we look at the whole of Scripture we have to compare it to a doctrine that is found "nowhere" in Scripture. Nowhere in Scripture is a man said to be saved or justified by faith alone. So, let's look at the whole of Scripture on this subject, just let me know where you're coming from.