Free Will vs. Predestination: Why is this even needed to be debated?

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W

Witness45

Guest
#1
Free Will Theology - states that God gave all his creatures the free will to make decisions like God. However as consequence, many have made bad decisions that have caused many to suffer and evil to flourish. God does not intervene in destroying evil because to do so would be to intervene in our free will. He gives everyone the choice to either go their own way, or follow God, and it is each individual's decision. God is not the direct cause of evil and suffering. God is not directly responsible for evil, for evil does not directly come from him. Rather, God is indirectly responsible for evil because he created finite beings and gave them free will. God does not directly do anything evil, for he is God, the ultimate standard of good. Only good can come from God because he willingly does not change and therefore remains as the absolute standard by which to judge good and evil. God created Hell as punishment and a place of quarantine for those who freely chose to go their own way as opposed to follow God, (punishment in order to uphold justice, and quarantine so they do not continue to negatively affect those who chose to follow God) and it is the fault of every individual in Hell that they suffer for all eternity. God does not will that any of his creation go to Hell, and it is his will that all live peacefully in Heaven with him for all eternity for he created all for that purpose; however so that his will does not intervene in their will, he allows his children to suffer if they want. He willingly limits himself for the sake of justice, his own glorification, and his children's free will.

Predestination Theology - states that God did not give his children free will. God is the direct cause of all evil and suffering for he is the only one with Free will. God decides everything that ever has happened or ever will happen. Therefore God created Heaven and Hell and predetermined in the beginning who would go there and who would not. It is God's will for most of his children to go to Hell and suffer for all eternity for the purpose of setting an example of his awesome power, and so the few of his children he has chosen can see his immense power and worship him for that (but not by their own free will of course). He is the sovereign one who has complete control over evil and suffering. He is the one who hardens hearts and creates evil and suffering so that he may triumph over the evil he has created and in doing so be worshiped for that. He created most for the purpose of extreme pain, death, and suffering for all eternity, and only a few for the purpose of worshiping him; however he created all for his own glorification. He willingly limits himself for the sole sake of his own glorification.

Now just tell me right off the bat, which of these two scenarios simply makes the most sense? It should be blatantly obvious which is the most likely scenario. Predestination Theology just makes absolutely no sense. Yet for those who still don't see I will explain...

Let me ask you a quick hypothetical question: If you happen to be walking down the street one day, stumble upon a burning building with lets say, 23 people inside, and you decide to rush in and are able to successfully rescue 3 of them. Will people deem you a hero? Will people give you honor and glory and praise? Will they most likely even give you an award for your heroic work? Of course! Because you were a hero worthy of praise. It doesn't even matter if most of the people in the building perish and die, you saved some of them by doing all that you could... But then after all that praise, what if everyone finds out that it was you who started the fire in the first place? Would they deem you a hero? Would they give you honor and glory and praise? Would they even give you an award for your heroic work? Of course not! They would most likely throw your sorry butt in jail for burning down a building and killing all those other people. Who cares if you save the lives of a few from a disaster that you cause?

This is the logic behind Predestination Theology. God's sole purpose is to give himself praise. Yet how does he achieve this? By creating suffering and evil for him to snuff out, through which he somehow gains greater glory. Why do so many people believe in this? Why does this issue even have to be debated? Predestination defies basic common sense...

I'll be the first to tell you, if this truly is the nature of God, then I hate him. If Predestination Theology were true, I would henceforth refuse to worship him. It should be understandable as to why...

The Predestination God is a God who creates scores of beings for the sole purpose of being tortured and killed. By his own will he gives life to an innumerable measure of beings in a world of suffering, gives them many sufferings throughout their entire lives until they finally die, and are then sent into Hell; a torturous prison from which there is no light, no hope, no happiness, no peace, in which they are burned alive over and over again and again, are tortured, raped, devoured, ripped apart over and over piece by piece in screaming brutal agony for the rest of eternity... I don't know about you, but I would never give honor and glory and praise to a homicidal manic like that. This God is guilty of more evil then those he's punishing, actually, those he's punishing aren't guilty of anything for they haven't freely decided anything. All of the guilt lies with God, yet instead of feeling guilty he feels proud and expects us to worship him for it. Adolf Hitler looks like a saint next to this God.

Furthermore in detail of my own personal experience; I have been sexually abused by my father at a young age, forced to relive the trauma over and over for ten years through mandatory visitations with him by ruling of the United States Judicial system, have suffered countless nightmares and night terrors, suffer from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD), have been bullied and beat up countless times all through school, have witnessed three dear loved ones of mine die in front of my eyes (two of which at a young age), have been made fun of for my looks and my poverty my whole life, and finally; fell in love with a white trash ex-girlfriend who cheated on me multiple times, put me down, ruined my grades in high school as well as any good chance of me going to any real college, and then left me so she could become a free-spirited bisexual who wants multiple non-committed relationships... Do you honestly expect me to worship a God who directly caused all of these negative events in my life, because he caused all of these negative events in my life? If so, ARE YOU INSANE? You'd have to be to worship this monster. If this is the true nature of God, then I hate him...

Thankfully this is not the nature of God, because basic common sense tells us so. This Predestination doctrine contradicts itself in nearly every area. It's common sense that if God exists and is truly all-knowing and all-powerful, then he wouldn't do this. We also know that it is not contradictory for there to be an all-knowing and all-powerful God with Free Will Theology, and therefore since it can only be one of the two, Free Will Theology wins hands down.

List of Free Will Theology verses:

1 Ch 28:9 1Ch 29:5 Ps 51:12 Da 3:28 Mt 18:14 Mt23:37 1Ti 6:18 1Pe 5:2 2Co 8:11-12
 
P

psychomom

Guest
#2
I am sorry for your past. :(

I don't think your scenarios are true...there are many " camps" in both theological ideas, and what you wrote prolly doesn't represent all in each. At all.

Rather than this:
Now just tell me right off the bat, which of these two scenarios simply makes the most sense? It should be blatantly obvious which is the most likely scenario. Predestination Theology just makes absolutely no sense.
why not just read The Word and believe it?
It's kinda dangerous to base an entire doctrine on what "makes sense" to the human mind. :)

love,
ellie
 
W

Witness45

Guest
#4
I am sorry for your past. :(

I don't think your scenarios are true...there are many " camps" in both theological ideas, and what you wrote prolly doesn't represent all in each. At all.

why not just read The Word and believe it?
It's kinda dangerous to base an entire doctrine on what "makes sense" to the human mind. :)

love,
ellie
It's also kinda dangerous to believe in something that "doesn't make sense" to the human mind. It's always better to question then to just blindly accept. You don't ever get answers if you're not willing to ask any questions. God loves an inquiring mind. So just saying "Just read the word and believe" isn't solving any problems, especially when skeptics have true questions like this that usually hinder their faith. I believe in the inerrancy of scripture, not 'just cause', but because the scripture's inerrancy is backed by hard historical, scientific, and philosophical evidence. I believe it because it is logical to believe it and it does "just make sense."

Also, I'm very aware of different "camps" in both ideologies, however philosophically it is impossible to accept 'Predestination with Free Will' since it is by definition a contradiction. If God Predestined someone to go to Hell whether they like it or not, then he has intervened in their free will and therefore the free will of the individual is eliminated, they don't have it. Some have stated that only those God has predestined to Heaven have free will, however this also is a contradiction. If God predestined them to Heaven, then he has by definition intervened in their free will and therefore they have none. Not only that but it does not account for all the souls he willingly damned for doing no wrong of their own.

This is just the totality of the logic of both points.
 

starfield

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2009
3,393
58
48
#5
Predestination Theology - states that God did not give his children free will. God is the direct cause of all evil and suffering for he is the only one with Free will. God decides everything that ever has happened or ever will happen. Therefore God created Heaven and Hell and predetermined in the beginning who would go there and who would not. It is God's will for most of his children to go to Hell and suffer for all eternity for the purpose of setting an example of his awesome power, and so the few of his children he has chosen can see his immense power and worship him for that (but not by their own free will of course). He is the sovereign one who has complete control over evil and suffering. He is the one who hardens hearts and creates evil and suffering so that he may triumph over the evil he has created and in doing so be worshiped for that. He created most for the purpose of extreme pain, death, and suffering for all eternity, and only a few for the purpose of worshiping him; however he created all for his own glorification. He willingly limits himself for the sole sake of his own glorification.
Actually, none of God’s children will go to Hell for they have been redeemed by the blood of Jesus. Non-believers, however, are not His children and their eternal destiny is Hell.

The bible does teach predestination but what you've presented is false.



 
Sep 6, 2013
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#6
Salvation defies logic regardless. What is logical to us about God even creating humanity? Christianity itself is so incredibly difficult for logically-minded people to comprehend. That's why we are to "become like little children".

(Though of course we should test everything against the Word.)

So my question is... how do you explain Romans 9? Could you give your interpretation of that entire chapter?
 
R

reject-tech

Guest
#7
It doesn't need to be debated. It's a circular logic and both are correct.

You will pick one or the other and go with it.
or
You will pick one or the other and go with it.
 

konroh

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2013
615
21
18
#8
You raise great questions, and truly it is hard to make sense of how God's infinity can somehow relate to our limited understanding of choice. I think your question is more about the existence of sin in the world seeming to be contrary to an all-powerful God of love. And I agree with you, when we come down to that, the responsibility of human choice in the issue is crystal clear. To me the resolution to this problem is to see how much God did and does to overcome our sin. The whole Bible is a spectrum of God's love on the matter. From clothes to Adam & Eve to mercy for Cain's mark, to waiting 120 years before the Flood, to making an unconditional covenant with Abraham, to rescuing a nation from Egypt, to giving law and providing a land and blessing, to bringing back a remnant from captivity, providing His Son to die for our sins, giving the Holy Spirit to seal us for redemption, to judging the earth, to coming in kingly glory.
 
K

Kerry

Guest
#9
Free will verse predestination is not arguable. You have a free will. where people get mislead is the for knowledge of God. God would not be righteous by picking and choosing whom He will save and whom He will not. It is our choice, yet He knows who will and who will not. Thats is why He is able to give prophecy. He gave Pharaoh every chance and showed himself to him more than anyone else. Yet God knew that he would turn his heart and therefore used him for His glory as the bible states.
 
Sep 6, 2013
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#10
He gave Pharaoh every chance and showed himself to him more than anyone else. Yet God knew that he would turn his heart and therefore used him for His glory as the bible states.
But scriptures say (in several places, numerous times) that God "hardened" Pharoah's heart. So this isn't really true, is it?
 
Feb 17, 2010
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#11
Witness you are a bit confused. Please consider this.... God made us in HIS image and likeness.... God has a choice. He can be Holy and without ANY WRONG, or God can be evil, wth NO HOLINESS at all. And we were made in the SAME IMAGE of this...

Adam was formed, and before Adam was formed God said.... ALL IS GOOD! but AFTER Adam was formed God siad it was VERY GOOD.... What you have to know right here is.... God found everything GOOD, but when He made man in His image and His likeness the creation was VERY GOOD!....

Do you see how well God mae things? How PERFECT everything was? BUT!!!! If God made man in HIS IMAGE Gd had to give man a FREE CHOICE!.... NOT FREE WILL! FREE CHOICE.... If you do not understnad what I am about to explain, you will NEVER get peace about this....

There are only TWO wills on this earth. God's and Satan's... God's will is explained when He created man in His image.... God wants EVERYTHING GOOD, VERY GOOD. Satan however wants to DESTROY and MURDER and STEAL, and make everything bad! You make it as if it was God's will that Adam would eat of the tree.... Did God not say to ADAM.... You shalt NOT eat of the tree... Why blame God for what the snake and Eve did to get Adam to eat?

If you want to blame God for YOUR BAD choices, ask yourselve... Why did I choose to do the wrong I did? Hey who FORCE you to sin? You see the Bible is very clear on this.... Masters will and servants does.... If we sin we do the will of Satan, and hwe choos him as our master.... if we sin NOT, we obey God and choose Him as out Master... And God makes it VERY clear we CANNOT serve both.... Oh and there is no other MASTERS... You are not a master! I am not a master... Only God and Satan is...

There is only one of TWO ways we can walk... there are not third option. So it is wrong to say we have a will, let alone FREE will. We have a choice!

Now who FOCED Adam to eat of the tree? Eve was decieved and tricked, but Adam just ATE WHEN HE SAW HIS EVE ATE, that is why God put the sin on ADAM. But God dealt with that... He send ANOTHER man that would only choose to OBEY the Master God! And God does GLORIFY His holiness THROUGH THE SALVATION of the OBEDIENCE OF ONE MAN.... Jesus Christ.

And you are right, Predestination does not make sence to man, but to HOLY MEN, it is the ONE GOD that made them holy, and DESTINED them to be ONE WITH HIM.... This is the thing you do not understand at ALL.... God knows no TIME. Time does not exist for God..... So predestination is a MAN concept, TIME does not exist.... Time, and PREDESTINATION is only for the human mind, TIME does not exist in God or in heaven.... If you can grasp this, you will see that even before the earth was made, YOU already determined your destination... AND GOD KNOWS WHAT YOU CHOSE.... He offered one life of holiness, and Satan offered one death forever.... What did you choose? There are only TWO OPTIONS....
 
K

Kerry

Guest
#12
But scriptures say (in several places, numerous times) that God "hardened" Pharoah's heart. So this isn't really true, is it?
You must look spiritually, God was showing him His greatness and that He was God. Pharaoh believed that he was a god. Every time a person rejects the pull of the Holy Spirit their heart gets harder and tougher to reach.
 
Feb 17, 2010
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#13
Grace if Pharoh had a soft heart to begin with he would not have enslaved any people... God only made the stony heart harder to show HIS SALVATION is more powerful than ANY STONY heart.... Read Ezekiel 36:26 and 27... And remember God gives a lot of people over to their own fleshly lusts, becasue they REJECT the heart God wants them to have...
 
K

Kerry

Guest
#14
Grace if Pharoh had a soft heart to begin with he would not have enslaved any people... God only made the stony heart harder to show HIS SALVATION is more powerful than ANY STONY heart.... Read Ezekiel 36:26 and 27... And remember God gives a lot of people over to their own fleshly lusts, becasue they REJECT the heart God wants them to have...
But it was Pharaoh's choice, God did not force him to reject Him.
 
Sep 6, 2013
4,430
117
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#15
You must look spiritually, God was showing him His greatness and that He was God. Pharaoh believed that he was a god. Every time a person rejects the pull of the Holy Spirit their heart gets harder and tougher to reach.
So why can't God show us all his greatness by hardening hearts as he sees fit? I don't see how this reference can be explained away by so many who advocate free will.
 
K

Kerry

Guest
#17
God hardened his heart and then gave him "a choice"? That's not really any choice is it?
You got it backwards he rejected God and hardened his heart. At one point he accepted the fact there is a God. then turned and was destroyed in the Red Sea.
 
Jun 30, 2011
2,521
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#18
Free Will Theology - states that God gave all his creatures the free will to make decisions like God. However as consequence, many have made bad decisions that have caused many to suffer and evil to flourish. God does not intervene in destroying evil because to do so would be to intervene in our free will. He gives everyone the choice to either go their own way, or follow God, and it is each individual's decision. God is not the direct cause of evil and suffering. God is not directly responsible for evil, for evil does not directly come from him. Rather, God is indirectly responsible for evil because he created finite beings and gave them free will. God does not directly do anything evil, for he is God, the ultimate standard of good. Only good can come from God because he willingly does not change and therefore remains as the absolute standard by which to judge good and evil. God created Hell as punishment and a place of quarantine for those who freely chose to go their own way as opposed to follow God, (punishment in order to uphold justice, and quarantine so they do not continue to negatively affect those who chose to follow God) and it is the fault of every individual in Hell that they suffer for all eternity. God does not will that any of his creation go to Hell, and it is his will that all live peacefully in Heaven with him for all eternity for he created all for that purpose; however so that his will does not intervene in their will, he allows his children to suffer if they want. He willingly limits himself for the sake of justice, his own glorification, and his children's free will.

Predestination Theology - states that God did not give his children free will. God is the direct cause of all evil and suffering for he is the only one with Free will. God decides everything that ever has happened or ever will happen. Therefore God created Heaven and Hell and predetermined in the beginning who would go there and who would not. It is God's will for most of his children to go to Hell and suffer for all eternity for the purpose of setting an example of his awesome power, and so the few of his children he has chosen can see his immense power and worship him for that (but not by their own free will of course). He is the sovereign one who has complete control over evil and suffering. He is the one who hardens hearts and creates evil and suffering so that he may triumph over the evil he has created and in doing so be worshiped for that. He created most for the purpose of extreme pain, death, and suffering for all eternity, and only a few for the purpose of worshiping him; however he created all for his own glorification. He willingly limits himself for the sole sake of his own glorification.

Now just tell me right off the bat, which of these two scenarios simply makes the most sense? It should be blatantly obvious which is the most likely scenario. Predestination Theology just makes absolutely no sense. Yet for those who still don't see I will explain...

Let me ask you a quick hypothetical question: If you happen to be walking down the street one day, stumble upon a burning building with lets say, 23 people inside, and you decide to rush in and are able to successfully rescue 3 of them. Will people deem you a hero? Will people give you honor and glory and praise? Will they most likely even give you an award for your heroic work? Of course! Because you were a hero worthy of praise. It doesn't even matter if most of the people in the building perish and die, you saved some of them by doing all that you could... But then after all that praise, what if everyone finds out that it was you who started the fire in the first place? Would they deem you a hero? Would they give you honor and glory and praise? Would they even give you an award for your heroic work? Of course not! They would most likely throw your sorry butt in jail for burning down a building and killing all those other people. Who cares if you save the lives of a few from a disaster that you cause?

This is the logic behind Predestination Theology. God's sole purpose is to give himself praise. Yet how does he achieve this? By creating suffering and evil for him to snuff out, through which he somehow gains greater glory. Why do so many people believe in this? Why does this issue even have to be debated? Predestination defies basic common sense...

I'll be the first to tell you, if this truly is the nature of God, then I hate him. If Predestination Theology were true, I would henceforth refuse to worship him. It should be understandable as to why...

The Predestination God is a God who creates scores of beings for the sole purpose of being tortured and killed. By his own will he gives life to an innumerable measure of beings in a world of suffering, gives them many sufferings throughout their entire lives until they finally die, and are then sent into Hell; a torturous prison from which there is no light, no hope, no happiness, no peace, in which they are burned alive over and over again and again, are tortured, raped, devoured, ripped apart over and over piece by piece in screaming brutal agony for the rest of eternity... I don't know about you, but I would never give honor and glory and praise to a homicidal manic like that. This God is guilty of more evil then those he's punishing, actually, those he's punishing aren't guilty of anything for they haven't freely decided anything. All of the guilt lies with God, yet instead of feeling guilty he feels proud and expects us to worship him for it. Adolf Hitler looks like a saint next to this God.

Furthermore in detail of my own personal experience; I have been sexually abused by my father at a young age, forced to relive the trauma over and over for ten years through mandatory visitations with him by ruling of the United States Judicial system, have suffered countless nightmares and night terrors, suffer from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD), have been bullied and beat up countless times all through school, have witnessed three dear loved ones of mine die in front of my eyes (two of which at a young age), have been made fun of for my looks and my poverty my whole life, and finally; fell in love with a white trash ex-girlfriend who cheated on me multiple times, put me down, ruined my grades in high school as well as any good chance of me going to any real college, and then left me so she could become a free-spirited bisexual who wants multiple non-committed relationships... Do you honestly expect me to worship a God who directly caused all of these negative events in my life, because he caused all of these negative events in my life? If so, ARE YOU INSANE? You'd have to be to worship this monster. If this is the true nature of God, then I hate him...

Thankfully this is not the nature of God, because basic common sense tells us so. This Predestination doctrine contradicts itself in nearly every area. It's common sense that if God exists and is truly all-knowing and all-powerful, then he wouldn't do this. We also know that it is not contradictory for there to be an all-knowing and all-powerful God with Free Will Theology, and therefore since it can only be one of the two, Free Will Theology wins hands down.

List of Free Will Theology verses:

1 Ch 28:9 1Ch 29:5 Ps 51:12 Da 3:28 Mt 18:14 Mt23:37 1Ti 6:18 1Pe 5:2 2Co 8:11-12


this is pretty loaded and one sided - if you would have done 30 minutes of homework you could have actually made a better case for what a Calvinist believes, and not a hyper Calvinist - which is what arminian or free will theology came from - Really just a bad response to a bad representation of a good theology

One of the first questions for the OP is have they thought about how much of that theology is based on Humanism yet? Or that Salvation is a supernatural event? That if God uses all things for the good of those who love Him, means that He allowed those things to happen for a purpose for your good - That Jesus Christ isn't what we wanted, but what we needed for our Good

This thread shouldn't even happen from people who don't understand what doctrines of Grace actually are - It's a reason I didn't do much arguing until i understood
 
Jun 30, 2011
2,521
35
0
#19
this is pretty loaded and one sided - if you would have done 30 minutes of homework you could have actually made a better case for what a Calvinist believes, and not a hyper Calvinist - which is what arminian or free will theology came from - Really just a bad response to a bad representation of a good theology

One of the first questions for the OP is have they thought about how much of that theology is based on Humanism yet? Or that Salvation is a supernatural event? That if God uses all things for the good of those who love Him, means that He allowed those things to happen for a purpose for your good - That Jesus Christ isn't what we wanted, but what we needed for our Good

This thread shouldn't even happen from people who don't understand what doctrines of Grace actually are - It's a reason I didn't do much arguing until i understood
Sorry tried to correct my post


this is pretty loaded and one sided, it is mostly from your testimony, which it's awesome that God delivered and God saved so when you get past those things, and can put the emotions in the past consider again:

- if you would have done 30 minutes of homework you could have actually made a better case for what a Calvinist believes, and not a hyper Calvinist - which is what arminian or free will theology came from - Really just a bad response to a bad representation of a good theology that got twisted by other groups

One of the first questions for the OP is have they thought about how much of that theology is based on Humanism yet?
Or that Salvation is a supernatural event?
That if God uses all things for the good of those who love Him, means that He allowed those things to happen for a purpose for your good - That Jesus Christ isn't what we wanted, but what we needed for our Good
That God is completely outside His creation, and owes it nothing
That we all deserve absolutely nothing from God, merit nothing from God, and can find no reason for favor in our lives, that God doesn't save us because we were treated really poorly and we deserved something good for our lives?
That God disciplines and scourges every son and daughter that He receieves - and it can be brutally painful
Have they actually witnessed to people who do not have the same worldview and actually hate Christians



That God yes ultimately is the author of Everything, but evil comes from His creation, not him